My Sister is Mormon....

[BartBurk]

You sure like to add things that have nothing to do with what we are talking about.

The original endowment was an EXACT copy of the contemporary Masonic rite. The timing of this occurrence is that Joseph Smith was initiated into Freemasonry, and within a couple of months had instituted this exact rite, layout of the temple and all, into Mormonism. Claiming it was a “revelation” from God.

The changes that have to do with the conversation, in that, you are telling me the temple rite today doesn’t match to the Freemason rite. And that is because they both have changed.

I never said anything about a cult. I never said that the changes indicated anything other than, they changed from the original that I was comparing.

Limbo compared to King Follet? How, exactly, are they comparable?

I’m afraid I have to disagree a bit on the Mormon temple endowment. There is a lot of religious material in the Mormon temple endowment that I don’t believe is found in the Masonic temple rite. From what I know the main similarities are similarities of clothing, and similarities of hand grips, signs and penalties. So Mormons who claim they are not completely similar are correct. I do think the changes which have been made at the very least show a lack of confidence in the original way the temple endowment was written.

I don’t think limbo was really much of a change. Augustine thought all unbaptized babies went to hell. Aquinas thought all unbaptized babies went to “limbo.” The current teaching is that we leave that judgment to God and have faith in his mercy. In reality the Catholic Church does not take a final position on what happens to unbaptized babies. People are still free to believe in limbo if they want to. I believe babies will be able to attain the beatific vision. The Catholic Church finally leaves all judgment to God and encourages people to get their babies baptized.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m afraid I have to disagree a bit on the Mormon temple endowment. There is a lot of religious material in the Mormon temple endowment that I don’t believe is found in the Masonic temple rite. From what I know the main similarities are similarities of clothing, and similarities of hand grips, signs and penalties. So Mormons who claim they are not completely similar are correct. I do think the changes which have been made at the very least show a lack of confidence in the original way the temple endowment was written.

I don’t think limbo was really much of a change. Augustine thought all unbaptized babies went to hell. Aquinas thought all unbaptized babies went to “limbo.” The current teaching is that we leave that judgment to God and have faith in his mercy. In reality the Catholic Church does not take a final position on what happens to unbaptized babies. People are still free to believe in limbo if they want to. I believe babies will be able to attain the beatific vision. The Catholic Church finally leaves all judgment to God and encourages people to get their babies baptized.

Fine. You can believe along with Mormons that the compass and square, the apron, and all the other Masonic symbols, actions, words and oaths were revelations from God.

I don’t.

 

[BartBurk]

Fine. You can believe along with Mormons that the compass and square, the apron, and all the other Masonic symbols, actions, words and oaths were revelations from God.

I don’t.

I’m an ex-Mormon who is now a Catholic. I obviously don’t believe those things were revelations from God, but they are only a relatively small part of the temple ceremony. I’ve been through the temple and the major part of the temple ceremony has to do with the creation of the universe and the fall. The Masonic elements are certainly there (or at least were there before several changes were made), but I think a Mormon could legitimately claim they are a small part of the temple endowment ceremony.

 

[dianaiad]

Dark chocolate orange…ooooooo please?

It’s yours.

…almost all the deliciousness, all the good will—and no calories. How much better can this get?

 

[RebeccaJ]

"The Mysteries of Godliness: A History of Mormon Temple Worship"

 

[Stephen168]

This is not exactly true.

I’m not Mormon, so I don’t KNOW if it is true or not. The idea that the Prophet does not prophesizes was first given to me by an agnostic ex-mormon. It was on his short list of reasons why he could not believe in a great apostasy. After being made award of this possibility, I’ve read nothing on CAF that would prove him wrong. The King Follet discourse seems to be another example.

 

[dianaiad]

It must be contagious. I’m thinking about going back and finishing my Phd just so I can yell at RebeccaJ. It’s nice to have something to live for.

Well, I’m not thinking about it, I’m going to do it. I’m on a roll here; a BA, two teaching credentials and two Master’s Degrees in five years…I can’t stop now. Next stop, doctorate of education!

My kids are teasing me about it; they tell me the only reason I want to do it is so that they would have to call me ‘Dr. Mom!’

I have to admit, that’s part of the attraction…but I also want to teach on the university level…and besides, I’d have to start actually paying the student loans back and that could ruin my whole year.

Mostly–grad school is too much fun; I get to read as much as I want to, and feel virtuous!

 

[BartBurk]

Well, I’m not thinking about it, I’m going to do it. I’m on a roll here; a BA, two teaching credentials and two Master’s Degrees in five years…I can’t stop now. Next stop, doctorate of education!

My kids are teasing me about it; they tell me the only reason I want to do it is so that they would have to call me ‘Dr. Mom!’

I have to admit, that’s part of the attraction…but I also want to teach on the university level…and besides, I’d have to start actually paying the student loans back and that could ruin my whole year.

Mostly–grad school is too much fun; I get to read as much as I want to, and feel virtuous!

I agree – grad school at BYU was my opportunity to read a lot of Dialogue and Sunstone and introduced me to the problems with the Book of Mormon. There was hardly anyone I knew in grad school at BYU who accepted the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

 

[dianaiad]

Oh yay, more Mormons to tell me how many degrees they have and books they have read.

Rebecca, trust me, we don’t read books and get degrees just so that we can tell you we have.

As odd as it may seem to people who keep wanting to catagorize us as brainwashed lockstep ignoramuses, the fact is that while 36.5% of the men in the US have post high school education, 53.5% of Mormon men do. 27.7% of US women have post high school educations, while 44.3% of Mormon women do.

Not to mention that Brigham Young University is considered to be one of the top universities in the nation, period:

90th percentile for academic challenge
Mariott business school 39th in the nation
Reuben Clark Law school ranked 34th (and it’s only been around a couple of decades!)
The Chronicle of Higher Education ranks BYU as the best university in the nation for ‘turning research into inventions and new companies’
In 2004 BYU ranked ahead of UCLS, Duke, Ohio State, Purdue and UC Berkely as one of the top 20 universities with freshmen merit scholars.

…and no, my degrees are not from BYU. I should be so lucky!

We have Brigham Young (he of the reputation of dictator) to thank for that; he insisted that everybody get as much education as they could, in all areas.

I spent most of my life as someone who could only put ‘some college’ on the forms. No BA. Not even an Associates degree. During that time I got really testy with people who would see my lack of formal degrees and instantly dismiss what I had to say…because it was utterly unfair. It was snobbishness. I resented it…and I was right to do so; a degree does not instantly imbue knowledge, nor does the lack of one automatically declare stupidity. (shrug)

I was 55 years old when I finally got my BA, and the advanced degrees just sorta piled up after that–almost without my thinking about it. I just kept taking classes and writing stuff.

…and now I am criticized for actually having them by folks who don’t. Well, get over it. I have them. I earned them. I’m proud of them, and in the process of getting them, I learned a great deal about a lot of stuff. If you are unhappy because others have them and you don’t, well…go get your own.

And don’t you dare tell ME that you are ‘too old’ or ‘too broke’ or ‘too busy.’ I’ll just laugh myself silly at you–especially at you, because you’re one of the people who, I can tell, would both enjoy, and be successful, at it.

So go get some of your own and then you won’t have to make cracks about those who have them, and admit it.

 

[mfbukowski]

You sure like to add things that have nothing to do with what we are talking about.

The original endowment was an EXACT copy of the contemporary Masonic rite. The timing of this occurrence is that Joseph Smith was initiated into Freemasonry, and within a couple of months had instituted this exact rite, layout of the temple and all, into Mormonism. Claiming it was a “revelation” from God.

The changes that have to do with the conversation, in that, you are telling me the temple rite today doesn’t match to the Freemason rite. And that is because they both have changed.

I never said anything about a cult. I never said that the changes indicated anything other than, they changed from the original that I was comparing.

Limbo compared to King Follet? How, exactly, are they comparable?

Well the only way I can prove you wrong about the endowment and masonry is to reveal the endowment line by line as you are saying and compare it to the masonic one which of course I won’t do and you know it. So of course I have to let you wiggle out on that one. But it is a lie. Not a distortion. A lie. Maybe you don’t know better – I hope so for the sake of at least my perception of your honesty. I don’t think tha tyou know that the endowment includes the anointings which we have discussed, and a recitation of the events in the garden of eden none of which have even a remote connection to the masonic ceremonies. The masonic ceremonies have no mention of Jesus Christ, who is the central character of the endowment. As I have said before there are perhaps 20 words out of 50 pages that are similar, and not identical. But you have set it up so that we cannot discuss it further, so of course I won’t, and you knew that going in.

I thought the analogy with limbo and king follett was perfectly clear.

Let me make it clearer

You say limbo was never doctrine, though it was and is widely believed in the Catholic church.

I say King Follett was never doctrine, though it was and is widely believed in the Mormon church.

There. Got it? Clear enough?

 

[mfbukowski]

I
The PROBLEM why me is that Mormons claim the Freemason rite is a revelation from God. Mormons may be all ok with that, Catholics most certainly are not. It is an invention, one of many, that JS & Co came up with.

No more or less than the mass being a revelation from God, and you change that all the time. “Externals” - remember that?

 

[mfbukowski]

I’m afraid I have to disagree a bit on the Mormon temple endowment. There is a lot of religious material in the Mormon temple endowment that I don’t believe is found in the Masonic temple rite. From what I know the main similarities are similarities of clothing, and similarities of hand grips, signs and penalties. So Mormons who claim they are not completely similar are correct. I do think the changes which have been made at the very least show a lack of confidence in the original way the temple endowment was written.

I don’t think limbo was really much of a change. Augustine thought all unbaptized babies went to hell. Aquinas thought all unbaptized babies went to “limbo.” The current teaching is that we leave that judgment to God and have faith in his mercy. In reality the Catholic Church does not take a final position on what happens to unbaptized babies. People are still free to believe in limbo if they want to. I believe babies will be able to attain the beatific vision. The Catholic Church finally leaves all judgment to God and encourages people to get their babies baptized.

I appreciate and respect your honesty, since you are about the only one on this forum that can verify this in a credible way. You are a true gentleman, and I would love to discuss anything with you anytime.

 

[mfbukowski]

"The Mysteries of Godliness: A History of Mormon Temple Worship"

I read this citation and it does not show what you are claiming, and the article does not make the claims you have made. Excerpts from different pages of a manuscript compared as if they are sequential quotes hardly constitutes a “line by line exact copy”. The article does not show what you were saying.

Besides that, the article itself is not accurate, but I cannot expect you to know that.

 

[mfbukowski]

Well, I’m not thinking about it, I’m going to do it. I’m on a roll here; a BA, two teaching credentials and two Master’s Degrees in five years…I can’t stop now. Next stop, doctorate of education!

My kids are teasing me about it; they tell me the only reason I want to do it is so that they would have to call me ‘Dr. Mom!’

I have to admit, that’s part of the attraction…but I also want to teach on the university level…and besides, I’d have to start actually paying the student loans back and that could ruin my whole year.

Mostly–grad school is too much fun; I get to read as much as I want to, and feel virtuous!

Good for you!!! You are sorely tempting me…!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well the only way I can prove you wrong about the endowment and masonry is to reveal the endowment line by line as you are saying and compare it to the masonic one which of course I won’t do and you know it.

Which brings us right back to my original point. MORMONS will not tell you about their temple ceremonies. I don’t know why anyone would convert to such a shady organization. As if I am just going to trust what you are saying when every Mormon I have ever met is secret and deceptive on this subject.

And still, ignore the Masonic influence as if it were nothing more than saying hello to your neighbor. Incredible.

If you want to believe this sort of thing, all the power to you. Why you give up the Eucharist for this is beyond me.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, trust me, we don’t read books and get degrees just so that we can tell you we have.

Don’t be lecturing me honey. You know nothing about my education level or goals. Such arrogance.

 

[why_me]

Which brings us right back to my original point. MORMONS will not tell you about their temple ceremonies. I don’t know why anyone would convert to such a shady organization. As if I am just going to trust what you are saying when every Mormon I have ever met is secret and deceptive on this subject.

And still, ignore the Masonic influence as if it were nothing more than saying hello to your neighbor. Incredible.

If you want to believe this sort of thing, all the power to you. Why you give up the Eucharist for this is beyond me.

For Mormons, the temple ceremony is holy and as such they do not wish to discuss it publically. That is their right to do so. But there are temple preparation classes and of course many investigators to the lds faith know that the temple ceremony is off limits for discussion before they become members and even after they become members.

Does the catholic church have any secrets?

 

[dianaiad]

Don’t be lecturing me honey. You know nothing about my education level or goals. Such arrogance.

???

Rebecca, the ‘lecture’ was a rather mild response to:

Oh yay, more Mormons to tell me how many degrees they have and books they have read.

 

[BartBurk]

For Mormons, the temple ceremony is holy and as such they do not wish to discuss it publically. That is their right to do so. But there are temple preparation classes and of course many investigators to the lds faith know that the temple ceremony is off limits for discussion before they become members and even after they become members.

Does the catholic church have any secrets?

As one who has gone through the Mormon temple, I would have to say the Mormon temple ceremony was one of the most disappointing experiences of my life. I looked forward to this wonderful spiritual experience and it was more like becoming a member of a frat club meeting in some posh hotel.

 

[truthsilence]

the fact is that while 36.5% of the men in the US have post high school education, 53.5% of Mormon men do. 27.7% of US women have post high school educations, while 44.3% of Mormon women do.

Not to mention that Brigham Young University is considered to be one of the top universities in the nation, period:

90th percentile for academic challenge
Mariott business school 39th in the nation
Reuben Clark Law school ranked 34th (and it’s only been around a couple of decades!)
The Chronicle of Higher Education ranks BYU as the best university in the nation for ‘turning research into inventions and new companies’
In 2004 BYU ranked ahead of UCLS, Duke, Ohio State, Purdue and UC Berkely as one of the top 20 universities with freshmen merit scholars.

…and no, my degrees are not from BYU. I should be so lucky!

We have Brigham Young (he of the reputation of dictator) to thank for that; he insisted that everybody get as much education as they could, in all areas.

I spent most of my life as someone who could only put ‘some college’ on the forms. No BA. Not even an Associates degree. During that time I got really testy with people who would see my lack of formal degrees and instantly dismiss what I had to say…because it was utterly unfair. It was snobbishness. I resented it…and I was right to do so; a degree does not instantly imbue knowledge, nor does the lack of one automatically declare stupidity. (shrug)

I was 55 years old when I finally got my BA, and the advanced degrees just sorta piled up after that–almost without my thinking about it. I just kept taking classes and writing stuff.

…Ever learning, never coming to the knowledge of the Truth?

I hope you’re here with us to learn something as well, Diana. And not just practicing your writing and debate skills. Seriously.