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Eilish_Maura
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:heaven:
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Caesar
Guest
Brotherhrolf makes excellent points, especially in pointing out that not everyone in his generation was happy with the Novus Ordo reforms.
Unfortunately I see this thread very quickly turning into a “lets bash the traditionalists” party.
Unfortunately I see this thread very quickly turning into a “lets bash the traditionalists” party.
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Eilish_Maura
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Who has been ‘bashing traditionalists’?
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brotherhrolf
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September 1968 - my senior year in high high school. We grew up with the Mass in Latin - 'Oh gee no one knew what was being said is no…NOT." It was always such that the junior choir sang for the senior’s graduation. In 1968 we sang for the seniors in Latin.
My graduation in May of 1969 - Sons of God w/ guitars -entrance antipohon…Sounds of Silence (Simon and Garfunkle) - Offertory. Bridge over Troubled Waters (Simon and Garfunkle) - Communion. They’ll Know We Are Christians- Recessional. Jr.s didn’t sing for us. It was the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ folks from my class.
He, he, we’re still in our original modes. F is still doin’ the a’strumin’ and a a’grinnin" down in NO and I am still chanting away. So that this baloney that we were all on the same page is bogus…
My graduation in May of 1969 - Sons of God w/ guitars -entrance antipohon…Sounds of Silence (Simon and Garfunkle) - Offertory. Bridge over Troubled Waters (Simon and Garfunkle) - Communion. They’ll Know We Are Christians- Recessional. Jr.s didn’t sing for us. It was the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ folks from my class.
He, he, we’re still in our original modes. F is still doin’ the a’strumin’ and a a’grinnin" down in NO and I am still chanting away. So that this baloney that we were all on the same page is bogus…
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JKirkLVNV
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No one has bashed any “traditionalists”, but this is also another trend I find disturbing: any observation not to their liking is regarded as “bashing.” It’s very nearly the same technique as used by homosexual activists or radical feminists, ie, anything which they remotely construe as negative (and no one has said ANYTHING at all negative about the EF or traditionalists AS A WHOLE) is “homo-phobia” or “sexism,” no matter how true the “offending” statement might be.
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brotherhrolf
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Eilish, I see it pretty much that way. I lived through those periods. There is a tremendous number of us who aren’t happy. There is one thing you need to be aware of…All of the protest against HMC came after us. We didn’t like how the Mass has changed or the godawful muisc which came after. We simply moved Masses from the 10:30 am sung Mass to the 8 am Mass w/o music or the 4:30 Mass on Saturday which was known as the speed Mass.
Most Masses now are sung. It’s one of the reasons I drive 25 miles one way. It might be shocking to you Eilish but the “happy clappy” "introduce yourself to your neighbor’ type of stuff which I can see on Sunday morning on my local protestant channel is not the church in which I was raised.
On the other hand, if this is what is pleasing to you, fine. But, please give us the same freedom. You don’t like Latin, fine. I don’t like happy clappy but I am not going to censure you and require you to worship as I do. Fair is fair my friiend. Fair is fair.
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JKirkLVNV
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No, this isn’t universally true. Many who would self-identify as traditionalists and many of us who refuse the term for ourselves ARE on the same page in terms of the essentials of what “being Catholic” means.
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Eilish_Maura
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You seem to be voicing all the things that ‘traditional Catholics’ bashed post Vat II Catholics with – sense of entitlement and wanting it ‘my way’ etc.
I do wish you would stop making me your target as I have not attacked you or your ‘right’ to preferences.
I also wish you would move past the ‘trauma’ you experienced in HS but I guess if that is the worst things have ever been for you there is reason to be quite happy.
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brotherhrolf
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My friend JKirk. The forum is entitled Traditional Catholicism. To be fair I don’t see Traditional Catholics like myself over on Liturgy and Sacraments bashing NO folks.
So, what am I supposed to do. I was baptized in 1951. I made my first communion in 1958. I was confirmed in 1963. I liked HMC as a kid. I was an altar boy and I sang in the children’s choir…in Latin. In 1967 I wa senior altar boy for my parish when our first church was built and blessed - in Latin.
So, am I just supposed to throw up my hands and say because JKirk was/is a convert (nothing perjorative in that my friend) and Eilish grew up after Vatican II, I’m just supposed to roll over and play dead and forget that which I grew up with. Am I supposed to forget my brother and I serving at my grandmother’s requiem Mass in 1965? You cannot take my history away from me. For the life of me, I cannot see what JKirk and Eilish has got you so fearful of Latin. It is perfectly fair to say that my heritage has been ripped away from me. Why are you so fearful of the restoration?
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Eilish_Maura
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Point of information – I did NOT grow up after Vatican II and I have no fear of Latin.
Things change - the Church has that right to change things.
Time to come to terms with the past.
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Walking_Home
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Yup – things change–the Church slowly is steading Herself–and turning around—so the time will come —when you will have to come to terms with that.
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brotherhrolf
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No sir. You come onto a Traditional Catholic forum and expect all of us to bend over and bow to your superiority. A sense of entitle ment? How so? Wanting it my way? How so? I have driven 25 miles one way for the last 25 years to attend a reverent NO parish.
I have not made you my target, sir but you regularly post on these threads bashing those of us who do do see things as you see them. Hast thou considered Liturgy and Sacraments where thou canst be the BMOC you wish to be?
It was a trauma. It was wrong. Evidently you are not old enough to know who Simon and Garfunkle were in 1969. Besmirch me all you will. You have not done anywhere near an adequate job of convincing me of my errors. And so, adios Eilish. You come onto the TC forum and rip people apart for their beliefs w/o giving why you think you are right. Ta ta.!
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Eilish_Maura
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And if they don’t ‘turn around’ the way you envision?
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Eilish_Maura
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The changes were not wrong in 1969 - I pray one day you see that and get some peace of heart. The Church was well within her rights.
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brotherhrolf
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And the Holy Father is what? You do realize that you set yourself in opposition to the Holy Father?
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Caesar
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Few question the authority Paul VI had to make the reforms, but just because he had the power to do so does not make it right or the reforms any less destructive for the Church.
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JKirkLVNV
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**I’m not fearful of Latin, I’m quite interested in Latin and I hope to study it more and gain a greater facility for it. I simply prefer to worship in my own tongue, given the vaild choices. I simply prefer to *hear *the Mass, as well, given the valid options. I’m not “fearful of the restoration,” since it validly pertains to Christ and I have nothing to fear in Christ (except my own weakness and fear of what He may have to do TO me in order to save me). I simply do not think that IF there was something to worry about I would HAVE anything to worry about regarding the restoration. If my funeral Mass takes place fifty years from now, I’m fairly certain it will be in English. If your’s takes place fifty years from now, I’m fairly certain you can have it in Latin. The point is, both of them will “be Catholic.” **My friend JKirk. The forum is entitled Traditional Catholicism. To be fair I don’t see Traditional Catholics like myself over on Liturgy and Sacraments bashing NO folks.
**I haven’t visited that forum recently (or this one, to tell the truth, I’ve little heart these days for arguing against either the invective or the arrogance I see in this one), but I’m certain you don’t engage in that, as you are a gentleman (and from the South, which you and I both know means a REAL gentleman). The fact remains that much of what is labled “bashing” is not remotely “bashing.” **
So, what am I supposed to do. I was baptized in 1951. I made my first communion in 1958. I was confirmed in 1963. I liked HMC as a kid. I was an altar boy and I sang in the children’s choir…in Latin. In 1967 I wa senior altar boy for my parish when our first church was built and blessed - in Latin.
So, am I just supposed to throw up my hands and say because JKirk was/is a convert (nothing perjorative in that my friend) and Eilish grew up after Vatican II, I’m just supposed to roll over and play dead and forget that which I grew up with. Am I supposed to forget my brother and I serving at my grandmother’s requiem Mass in 1965? You cannot take my history away from me.
Again, I don’t see anyone here attempting to do any of these things, Brother H. I simply made the point that many of your age (I think you’re only a few years older than I) or older and of my aquaintance do NOT feel as you do and welcomed the changes. Frankly, I think some of those HAVE departed from the faith in all, but body, but not remotely MOST of them. I think MOST of them are still “being Catholic,” to use your words.
For the life of me, I cannot see what JKirk and Eilish has got you so fearful of Latin. It is perfectly fair to say that my heritage has been ripped away from me. Why are you so fearful of the restoration?
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JKirkLVNV
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Or the time may well come when “traditionalists” will have to adjust to the fact that while the Church has steadied Herself, she may well not do things precisely the way they might wish.
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JKirkLVNV
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Seperating the reforms from the abuse of the reforms, there is no demonstrable proof that the reforms have been destructive to the Church.
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Eilish_Maura
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:clapping: - Status