'My Story'

[Razanir]

The ‘extra’ books of the Bible.

Others have mentioned this before. We didn’t add them; Luther and the Reformation took them out.

Mary.

You could be making a couple different claims here:

1. Catholics worship Mary.
   No, we do not actually. We honor her more than any other saint (hyperdulia instead of dulia), but both of those are leagues below the latria we give only to God.
2. Catholics pray to Mary and the saints.
   Okay. That one’s true. And Protestants who complain about that are being hypocritical. We ask others on Earth to pray for us, right? Well what’s so different about asking someone in Heaven to pray for us instead?

What I probably incorrectly see as ‘hatred’ of other denominations and their practices.

Yep. You’re imagining things there

 

[davidn87]

I guess my only thing with praying to the saints is those verses which warn against talking to the dead, I mean I can understand it sort of, but those verses seem to clash with it.

 

[JustaServant]

David, I am a “revert” after twenty years as a Baptist. I wrote this about five years ago.
I hope it helps.

A Few thoughts on Mary and the Great Cloud of Witnesses.
1.
Is God the God of the dead or the living? Are those in Heaven living or dead?
Becoming Catholic again created a strange situation for me.
What about Mary and the Saints?
Even as a flaming fundamentalist I knew better than to say Catholics worshipped Mary, mainly because I grew up Catholic and knew that wasn‘t true. But wasn’t PRAYING to Mary and the Saints ‘worship’? For almost twenty years I heard about ‘Marian idolatry’.
In my younger years I bought into the ’Two Babylons’ lie that ‘Mary and saint worship’ came from Babylon. I would often hear that “Catholics pray to dead people.” Even after I dismissed the anti-Catholic lies, I was still uncomfortable with praying to Mary or any other saint. Are saints mere “dead people”? Was Jesus was practicing witchcraft at the transfiguration?
How did God break through that wall?
It began with understanding how the early Church, and the Hebrews in particular dealt with the subject of death and the afterlife.
In the modern world, when somebody dies, its as if they cease to exist. They are spoken of in the past tense, they were alive once, but now they are dead, gone, they cease to exist. We print their obituaries in the newspaper, show old pictures or film of them and talk about OUR memories.
In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown. To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself.
God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.
In the early church, this thinking never changed.
When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’. Hebrews 12:1 says “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,”
Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again. The Church is more than we can physically see.
Since we are all one Body of Christ, we are connected to each other by the Holy Spirit. Our deceased loved ones do not cease being part of the church just because they have gone on before us. They are STILL part of the Church and remain ‘on the church membership rolls’. We join hands with them spiritually as part of the mystical Body of Christ.
If the Saints are those who share in eternal life in Christ and full communion with God, then the Saints are living in a much more real way than those left on the earth. Catholics believe in a SPIRITUAL church, not just a physical one.
The saints are still alive in Christ and part of our worship.
Revelation shows the saints in heaven bring before the Lamb the prayers of the saints on earth. They are concerned over what is happening on this planet.God told us to ask others to intercede for us. Consider, only the righteous are in heaven. And Scripture says that prayers of the righteous are efficacious.
Revelation tells us of those who have overcome are ruling and reigning with Christ. He shares His power and glory with His Saints, and they reign as kings and priests, offering up prayers and petitions on our behalf.

Continued…

 

[JustaServant]

God’s Word commands us to pray for one another:
1 Timothy 2:1-4 “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that not even death can separate us from Christ:
Rom. 8:38-39 “Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord"
Is not the Church the Body of Christ?

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Mt 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.

Lu 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents (how did they know the sinner repented?) than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Tobit 12:14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."

2Maccabees 15: 11 He (Judas Maccabee) armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. 12 What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. 13 Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. 14 And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” 15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16 “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Continued…

 

[JustaServant]

Part of understanding the Communion of Saints, is that we ask for those living and dead to intercede or carry our prayers to Jesus.
Mary is a part of this Communion of Saints.
She is in a very real sense, our mystical connection to the spiritual Church.
How do we understand this?
In Gen. 3:15 we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” The phrase “her seed” is not seen elsewhere in Scripture. The Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling Satan. This teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve. In John 2:4 and 19:26 Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull.Isaiah 7:14 and Matt. 1:23 tell us a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” Luke 1:35 tells us the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”). In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth says Mary is the “Mother of my Lord” which is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God”. Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God.
Luke 1:28 states “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel. When Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the very words of God. The phrase “full of grace”. This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. A few verses down, Luke 1:42 says “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” Luke 1:48 says Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary”. Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, Catholics are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

Continued…

 

[JustaServant]

Nowhere in Catholic teaching is there anything that directs Catholics to worship Mary. Catholics do not ‘worship’ Mary, we do however venerate her.Venerate means To regard with respect, reverence, and heartfelt deference.One of the 10 Commandments is “Honor your Father and your Mother.” One honors their father and mother and respects them. Catholics do so for their parents, and for the Blessed Virgin Mary.Worship means the reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or sacred object, which we do not accord to our parents.We pray “to” Mary in the old sense of the word. In Elizabethan English they would say "I pray thee…… It is a pleading to a person of dignity.
The Hail Mary says “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you! Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus! Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” We are first “praying the scriptures”, and second, we are asking Mary to pray for us to the Lord even as I might ask a living Christian to do. For “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”
Family members and friends pray with and for one another, because we are the family of God.
When God touched my heart and the wall of anti-Catholicism was demolished, praying the Hail Mary was the first act I performed.
I remember it vividly. My whole world was shaken. In a moment of time God ‘mugged me from behind’ and the truth of the Catholic Church shown like a light in darkness. When I got home that night, I went into my bedroom alone and closed the door. That night I did something that I hadn’t done in two decades. I prayed the Lord’s Prayer and the Hail Mary.
The Lord’s Prayer was easy, that I had done many times before. I was scared to death to pray the Hail Mary. It was like kissing my wife for the first time. It was something I wanted to do and years of bigotry were overcome. After I was done, the Holy Spirit filled me with a joy I cannot describe.
A weight had been lifted from my shoulders. I felt at peace for the first time in many years.

 

[po18guy]

I guess my only thing with praying to the saints is those verses which warn against talking to the dead, I mean I can understand it sort of, but those verses seem to clash with it.

Luke 20:38
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
38 For he is not the God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to him.

Luke 9:30-32
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
30 And behold two men were talking with him. And they were Moses and Elias,
31 Appearing in majesty. And they spoke of his decease that he should accomplish in Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep. And waking, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

1 Corinthians 12:12
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ.

Romans 8:38-39
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Just for examples. We are members of Christ’s Body by our baptism. When we progress to the next life, do we cease being parts of His Body? Is part of Christ’s own Body dead? No! That would make Christ partially dead! This very idea of the dead came from men who think as man does and not as God does.

Whoever told you that parts of Christ’s Body are dead is simply wrong. This is also a rather new line of thought in Christianity. In fact, praying for the dead occurred even before Christ. But, a non-Catholic 66 book bible does not tell you that. All of the various ancient Orthodox Churches are 100% in agreement with the Catholic Church on this one. Several protestant communities as well.

 

[pablope]

I guess my only thing with praying to the saints is those verses which warn against talking to the dead, I mean I can understand it sort of, but those verses seem to clash with it.

I think you are talking about Necromancy…defined here:newadvent.org/cathen/10735a.htm

Which is quite a departure from the Communion of Saints.

Matthew 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven.

Those in heaven are like angels…have the attributes of angels.

And the following verses in Revelation bore this out:

REv 5: 8…8 And when He had taken the book, the four living beings and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of incense, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 8…3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which was before the throne.

4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.

The saints and angels do the same thing.

This thread my be helpful to you also: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=752810&page=2

 

[LegoGE1947]

I guess my only thing with praying to the saints is those verses which warn against talking to the dead, I mean I can understand it sort of, but those verses seem to clash with it.

In reality the saints are more “alive” than we are. They are in the very presence of God and we are not. We can only live by faith and they don’t need faith. Also see James where the Bible reads “The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much” (James 5:16) Who could be more “righteous” than those in the very presence of God?

 

[davidn87]

I feel like I’m unravelling with things I’m reading on here; All this stuff about Genesis not being literal, other parts not being strictly true…

 

[LegoGE1947]

I feel like I’m unravelling with things I’m reading on here; All this stuff about Genesis not being literal, other parts not being strictly true…

I know how you feel because I feel like I’m being unravelled as well. As to Genesis I don’t profess to know what is literally true or not. But however the world began I believe God was involved in it and the reason God created the world is he wanted a home for his highest creation, mankind.

 

[Slaney]

davidn87:

The ‘extra’ books of the Bible.

It doesn’t have extra books, it has the Catholic Church approved books, others without authority saw fit to remove them.

Mary

…a problem with the mother of Jesus, but no problem with Jesus ?

What I probably incorrectly see as ‘hatred’ of other denominations and their practices.

Incorrectly is right !

 

[davidn87]

I know how you feel because I feel like I’m being unravelled as well. As to Genesis I don’t profess to know what is literally true or not. But however the world began I believe God was involved in it and the reason God created the world is he wanted a home for his highest creation, mankind.

But if one part of the Bible isn’t true, how can any of it be trusted??

 

[Razanir]

But if one part of the Bible isn’t true, how can any of it be trusted??

In short, the Bible’s not a history book. Or a science book. In fact, it doesn’t even fit cleanly into a single genre. Its genre varies depending on which book of the Bible you’re reading. 1 and 2 Chronicles are history books; the Epistles are letters to various churches; Wisdom is a book full of advice. What’s important, though, is that the Bible contains SPIRITUAL and RELIGIOUS Truth, even if its description of things isn’t scientifically accurate. (Such as classifying bats as birds)

 

[ffg]

David, the “chaos” is a good thing. You get to refine your knowledge base and come out more informed than ever.

That doesn’t mean you’ll make a drastic move like convert, but you’ll have the information to bounce against what you might get in your comfortable place of worship.

 

[po18guy]

But if one part of the Bible isn’t true, how can any of it be trusted??

God speaks to us in parable, via simile, allegory, poetry, our senses, through our spirits as well as via other forms of communication. We are limited, while He is not. The guiding principle behind each of these forms of communication remains true. Think of the parables that Jesus told. From Matthew 14, was there really a master who gave 1, 5 and 10 talents to his servants and left on a long journey? Since some of those who accompanied Jesus had known him for most, if not all of His life, why was neither this man nor his servants named? Where was the “outer darkness” that the slothful servant was thrown into? The master and servants existed only to teach the principle being put forth - that God gives us gifts through His Holy Spirit and expects us to use them for the building up of His Kingdom. When He returns, He will expect an increase based upon our use of His gifts. If not literally, historically true, the bible is always true in principal.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it almost sounds like you have been taught that each and every bit of the bible is a 100% accurate, historical and scientific record. Further, it appears that you have found that this may not be so, and the foundation of your belief has been shaken. This is the problem with a literalistic view of the scriptures. Better to read scripture in the literal sense - that which was meant to be imparted to us by the author. That includes the principle contained in the parable as well as each and every other manner of communication present in those pages.

 

[davidn87]

I don’t mean any of the parables or ‘examples’. If the account of creation is not what really happened, how can anything else in the word of God be trusted? How can we know Jesus’ life and death happened exactly as it is said to have happened?

I cannot understand how one part can be said to be ‘myth’ or whatever without the rest going down with it. Who decides what really happened?

 

[ffg]

I don’t mean any of the parables or ‘examples’. If the account of creation is not what really happened, how can anything else in the word of God be trusted? How can we know Jesus’ life and death happened exactly as it is said to have happened?

I cannot understand how one part can be said to be ‘myth’ or whatever without the rest going down with it. Who decides what really happened?

You are walking yourself down a path proving the falsehood of Sola Scriptura.

Do you really care “Who decides what happened”, or is it more important to learn about “what happened”?

That “what happened” for many years was spread by voice.

Do I have any reason not to believe a bunch of individuals that Jesus rose? If they were liars, the body would have been found by now.

They also would not have died for their lie.

 

[davidn87]

I feel like I’m repeating myself now and not really getting anywhere.

Do you really care “Who decides what happened”, or is it more important to learn about “what happened”?

Another thing I’ve been reading on here, that certain people who say God has spoke to them personally are treated as loons, because it doesn’t match with what’s being taught in church.

So again I come back to, if one part of scripture didn’t happen as it is written, how can anything else be trusted? And who exactly decided this was so?

 

[davidn87]

In the last few days I’ve got over all objections I had to Catholicism - but this new issue, that things in the Bible aren’t true…