My struggle with the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary

[MagdalenaRita]

if Mary was conceived without sin, it would put her on the same status as a literal goddess. Also how could she then have been given atonement for the sins of the fall of original sin from Christs sacrifice on the cross ? She in turn wouldn’t have been saved from his atonement and would be something completely different than the rest of humanity, again almost like a goddess

Maybe I am misunderstanding your question but it looks like you are asking, how could she have been saved from original sin before she was conceived and before the crucifixion.

My dad used to say it is the difference between being saved from falling into a pit versus being saved by being pulled out of a pit. Mary was saved from original sin before she could have fallen into it.

As far as her being different than humanity, it has nothing to do with her being a goddess. A goddess is a deity, implying she accomplished what happened through her, on her own but she didn’t. It was God who saved her for a special purpose.

She is different from the rest of humanity because of her sinlessness and how she was saved from original sin but even she exclaims in her Magnificat that it was God’s doing, not hers.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

For example, if Mary was conceived without sin, it would put her on the same status as a literal goddess.

God has other attributes that make Him God.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

Mary lived a private life with Jesus and her most notable appearance was when she was at the foot of the Cross. This would have been more of a humiliation for her. She appeared maybe three times in His ministry (and it even looks like she is being rejected.) and received the Holy Spirit in the upper room and that’s about it.

 

[runningdude]

I spent two years in the seminary and was taught these two things so much and I still don’t grasp it. For example, if Mary was conceived without sin, it would put her on the same status as a literal goddess.

Eve was conceived without sin, because God cannot create evil. Eve’s disobedience is the origin of sin.

Mary, likewise, was conceived without sin. She is not a goddess, but the receptor of a great gift from the True God. It is through her obedience that Jesus came to save the world.

She in turn wouldn’t have been saved from his atonement and would be something completely different than the rest of humanity,

Indeed, Blessed is she among women!

Notice the readings on both the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception really have nothing to do with what is being celebrated. The infancy narrative.

Blessed is she among women - but blessed is the fruit of her womb, Jesus!

All honors given to Mary reflect her gift to humanity, her obedience to the Lord to bear a son, who she would loose to death at an early age so that we may be saved.

If the Church wanted to make this so easy for everyone to accept without problems they should have been more liberal on the New Testament canon. I believe our New Testament is incredibly small for the amount of writings many church fathers quoted as scripture. Actually many things the church teaches as tradition is found right in these writings.

Scripture is part of the sacred tradition of the Church. Scripture is the portion of tradition written down during the time of the Apostles and Old Testament Saints.

Mary’s assumption has always been part of the “oral” tradition of the Church - it just wasn’t “written down” until roughly 1900 years after the Apostles!

 

[Roseeurekacross]

if Mary was conceived without sin, it would put her on the same status as a literal goddess.

Firstly, there is only one God, so therefore, there are no goddesses. Thats critical to our faith.
There is only ONE GOD.
I can see why you had difficulty grasping this. You are attributing a pagan value to our greatest saint.

Its important to apply interpretation without bias and prejudice. So this has to be approached without preconceived ideas, or as few as possible.
It must also be approached with an open mind, willing to learn and listen and put those past biases behind us.

Did you do any Hermenuetics in seminary?
those skills would be advantageous in this situation.

 

[sevenswords]

I believe oral tradition is valid and Mary our blessed Mother is now our spiritual mother given to watch over her children Revelation tells us Satan went to make war on the rest of her children.
I think part of that war is seeds of confusion and doubt.
Can you accept this?
Mary was planned, set aside before all creation to be the Mother of God?
Can you accept and understand clearly that we are all meant to be one in God just as Jesus is one with the father?
If you can accept these both as I am sure you can then what you see is Mary the spiritual Mother of all Christians is the first fruit along with Christ, she is what we are to become, perfect in all her ways pure and holy and all this by the grace of God who is the giver of all faith and graces.
have you read The Mystical City of God by Ven. Mary of Agreda - Online Catholic Book
I really Hope and pray that you find peace in this and see Mary as the example for all her children the good Mother who is without fault or blemish and she is a way to Christ through her intercession.
an after thought
you may ask why do we need Mary if we can go directly to God and if you ask this why stop there why not ask why confession why not go directly to God etc and then you become protestant without understanding that God has ordained things to be how they are and we do well to listen.

 

[sevenswords]

(First quotation on the page from above link if it is helpful)

I have not revealed these mysteries in the primitive Church, because they are so great, that the faithful would have been lost in the contemplation and admiration of them at a time when it was more necessary to establish firmly the law of grace and of the Gospel. Although all mysteries of religion are in perfect harmony with each other, yet human ignorance might have suffered recoil and doubt at their magnitude, when faith in the Incarnation and Redemption and the precepts of the new law of the Gospel were yet in their beginnings.

On this same account the person of the incarnate Word said to his disciples at the last supper: “Many things have I to say to you; but you are not yet disposed to recieve them” (John 6, 12). These words He addressed to all the world, for it was not yet capable of giving full obedience to the law of grace and full assent to the faith in the Son, much less was it prepared to be introduced into the mysteries of his Mother. But now, mankind has greater need for this manifestation, and this necessity urges Me to disregard their evil disposition. And if men would now seek to please Me by reverencing, by living, and studying the wonders, which are intimately connected with this Mother of Piety, and if they would all begin to solicit her intercession from their whole heart, the world would find some relief. I will not longer withhold from men this mystical City of refuge; describe and delineate it to them, as far as thy shortcomings allow. I do not intend that thy descriptions and declarations of the life of the Blessed Virgin shall be mere opinions or contemplations, but reliable truth. They that have ears to hear, let them hear. Let those who thirst come to the living waters and leave the dried-out cisterns; let those that are seeking for the light, follow it to the end. Thus speaks the Lord God Almighty!" (Vo1 1., The Mystical City of God: Life of the Virgin Mother of God, manifested to Sister Mary of Jesus of Agreda )

 

[Francis]

For example, if Mary was conceived without sin, it would put her on the same status as a literal goddess

no, Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Mother Mary is without a single stain of original sin, throughout, so being the Mother of God, who is full of Grace, is most powerful intercessor , before God to prayer for us, we sinners. The Holy Spirit Himself is speaking through St Elizabeth and testifying about Mother Mary. Luke 1: 41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy = sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Francis]

Also how could she then have been given atonement for the sins of the fall of original sin from Christs sacrifice on the cross ? She in turn wouldn’t have been saved from his atonement and would be something completely different than the rest of humanity, again almost like a goddess.

It is Jesus came through Mary,and it was Jesus who atones for our sins, God obviously will selects a virgin who is a pure vessel. The perpetual virginity of Mary is a Marian doctrine taught by the Catholic Church and held by a number of group since Christianity which asserts that Mary (the mother of Jesus was ;always a virgin , before, during and after the birth of Jesus ; because Jesus came out of her like a light, a miraculous birth. John 1:4, 5 in Him was life and the life was the light of all people.5 The light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not overcome it.

James 1:17 Every generous act of giving, with every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.and what the Heavenly Father has give her is Full of Grace Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.Galatians 4:26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free and she is our mother ( MARY). (MOTHER MARY IS SINLESS and Mary retain ;perpetual virginity),

 

[Francis]

She in turn wouldn’t have been saved from his atonement and would be something completely different than the rest of humanity, again almost like a goddess

The Heavenly Father has Choose Mary as the Mother of God ,Which Mother did, co-operated by doing His Will in Luke 1:38. Lk 1:28, 30 – angel: “full of grace, found favor with God Lk 1:42 – Elizabeth: “most blessed among women” Lk 1:48 – Mary: “all generations will call me blessed” Mother of God Lk 1:43 – Elizabeth calls her “mother of my Lord” = God.
Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she (Mary)shall crush thy (satan) head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Did all sin? yes Romans 3:23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, read and understand ?Luke 1:28 Hail full of Grace, the Truth(Jesus).

Jeremiah 31:22 How long will you waver,O faithless daughter? (Eve and we her children) For the Lord Heavenly Father has created a new thing on the earth:a woman(Mother Mary sinless ) protects a man.( Jesus)” John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. was it not? and how did Jesus come the chosen women Mary who was found to be in Grace.

 

[Benadam]

The Assumption of Mary was so universally believed that relic fakers wouldn’t bother faking her relics. That kind of belief from the ground does not happen by mere teaching but by a handing down of something real that happened from parents to children. The cause of that kind of belief is an event that changes peoples perspective on reality. Changes their lives in a way that it becomes a way of life for generations that follow. Her Tomb is empty just like her Son’s. The Assumption became a reality in peoples lives and gave proof that Mary is sinless. The Orthodox don’t require belief she was sinless from conception but there is much scriptural support especially in the OT types. The 12th chapter of revelation is about a woman who is no longer subject to change and is clothed in the eternal light of Christ. This is written by the man Jesus gave Our Blessed Mother too. A man who would have been there when it happened. He is describing a woman who is in heaven body and soul and who else could it be but the New Woman Our Blessed Mother.

 

[Benadam]

Jesus called Himself Son of Man. The only human that can call Jesus “My Son” is Our blessed Mother. When Jesus called Himself Son of Man who did He mean but His Mother? Think of the implications of that. Like Our Father in Heaven Mary can say she gave her only begotten Son. Like Adam could say of Eve “bone of my bone flesh of my flesh” Mary could say of Jesus. She is the new archetype of Woman…Mother of all the living.

 

[Onthisrock84]

Theres new Testament apocrypha that speaks of it much earlier. In the 3rd century.
As for 1900 years, so the church does then believe in continuing public revelation?

 

[KevinK]

Of course it is speculation.

 

[hergratefulchild]

My understanding of what is written about Mary and a taking in the whole journey from creation to the visit of the angel. Mary by being a humble, obedient servant of her heavenly master and by being free from the corruption of man had had found favour with God. Who chose her to be overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and concieve a son that would take the throne of his earthly father David, rule over the nations and save all people from sin and death.

It was through her that God made possible his plan and under his protection was not only an Imaculate Conception but remained free from the effects of original sin. We also can hope in ressurection of our own spirit with her body, the body that gave birth to salvation itself.

How lovingly she held our Lord in her hands, nurtured and cared for him and then accepted his being rejected and killed by his own people and that of the ruling power.

 

[TheLittleLady]

No, it is the Dogma, the revealed unchangeable truth.

 

[Onthisrock84]

It was only started being a belief first in the eastern churches in the 5th century and the west in the 6th. That is not unchangeable…

 

[SeriousQuestion]

The Church learns new things as it grows.

 

[joeybaggz]

and I still really just have blind faith with this one

And that’s exactly what you need. I am well educated through graduate school and I can’t understand these doctrines from a logical standpoint either. Then again, long ago I accepted that my finite mind cannot comprehend or explain the nature or essence of God.
"Unless you have the faith of a small child you shall not see heaven, for such as these little ones is the kingdom of God, made.? Something to think about???

 

[Brendan]

For example, if Mary was conceived without sin, it would put her on the same status as a literal goddess.

I am not following your logic there. How would a creature being conceived without sin indicate that the creature is Divine?

Adam and Eve were created without sin, does that make them a god and goddess. The distinction that Mary has is that her creation involved a natural conception.