My thoughts about Catholicism and the Catholic Church

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That is beautiful. I personally was baptized and raised Catholic. I never appreciated the faith until I turned 21 and had my Confirmation. When I decided to go to Confirmation classes and join the church fully I couldn’t stop digging for more and more truth. The church is beautiful and now that I am catechized I could never leave the truth we are given. I feel like I am in an underground special club, that only few will join because it is a gift most people have a hard time fully accepting and believing in. Listen to Christ and His calling you home! I always love hearing stories of people coming to the church because of the fact that it is the one true church and is consistent with her teachings.
God bless~
 
I think that the ecclesiology expressed in this post would be utterly unrecognizable to St. Ignatius of Antioch, or any of the early Fathers for that matter.

Development is one thing. This is mutation. It’s Protestant “church shopping” in fancy vestments.

Edwin
He would still be subject to the disciplines of whichever Rite he was a member of, regardless of which Mass he attended. (For example, if he were Ukrainian Rite, he would still have to abstain from all meat, oil, and dairy products during Lent, even if he were attending Mass at a Latin Rite church - and he would still be required to fast for how ever long they fast, before receiving Holy Communion.)
 
It’s worse. It’s like Church shopping with coupons the day after Christmas! 😃
I think that the ecclesiology expressed in this post would be utterly unrecognizable to St. Ignatius of Antioch, or any of the early Fathers for that matter.

Development is one thing. This is mutation. It’s Protestant “church shopping” in fancy vestments.

Edwin
 
He would still be subject to the disciplines of whichever Rite he was a member of, regardless of which Mass he attended. (For example, if he were Ukrainian Rite, he would still have to abstain from all meat, oil, and dairy products during Lent, even if he were attending Mass at a Latin Rite church - and he would still be required to fast for how ever long they fast, before receiving Holy Communion.)
And what becomes of “one bishop, one city”?

That’s what I’m talking about. Diversity of Rites is a wonderful thing. But all Christians in one place should gather around one altar, under one bishop or his subordinate presbyters. That is, on the most basic level, what the unity of the Church means.

Your Communion has forgotten this. Therefore your Communion is less than fully Catholic, for all your pretensions.

Edwin
 
And what becomes of “one bishop, one city”?

That’s what I’m talking about. Diversity of Rites is a wonderful thing. But all Christians in one place should gather around one altar, under one bishop or his subordinate presbyters. That is, on the most basic level, what the unity of the Church means.

Your Communion has forgotten this. Therefore your Communion is less than fully Catholic, for all your pretensions.

Edwin
:rolleyes: I’m sure you’ll always find something to criticize. After all, when certain higher-ups in our Communion were trying to suppress the other Rites and make everyone Latin, your side all got your panties in a bunch then, too. 🤷
 
I know Contarini is Episcopalian, but still, the guy doesn’t wear panties! 😃
:rolleyes: I’m sure you’ll always find something to criticize. After all, when certain higher-ups in our Communion were trying to suppress the other Rites and make everyone Latin, your side all got your panties in a bunch then, too. 🤷
 
And what becomes of “one bishop, one city”?

That’s what I’m talking about. Diversity of Rites is a wonderful thing. But all Christians in one place should gather around one altar, under one bishop or his subordinate presbyters. That is, on the most basic level, what the unity of the Church means.

Your Communion has forgotten this. Therefore your Communion is less than fully Catholic, for all your pretensions.

Edwin
By your remarks, Edwin, I don’t think that you truly know the Catholic Church. Even though there are different Rites and disciplines, the Catholic Church is still one.

We all make the same confession of faith, we all teach the same truths as did Christ and the Apostles, we are all in communion with one another, we all submit to the authority of the representative of Christ, the Pope, and we all make up the one HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC Church.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
I can’t speak for Edwin, but I understood his post to have the sentiment that Christ’s Church should not have multiple bishops in the same area, but one bishop, one city, type of outlook. In other words, right now there is a Catholic bishop in my area and an Anglican one and the Orthodox bishop of San Francisco area covers this area as well I believe. So were they all to become “rites” of the Catholic Church, there’d be three bishops. There should only be one. I think that’s his sentiment. He’s not saying that he doesn’t understand there are different rites. Clearly with his knowledge and intellect he knows as much.
By your remarks, Edwin, I don’t think that you truly know the Catholic Church. Even though there are different Rites and disciplines, the Catholic Church is still one.

We all make the same confession of faith, we all teach the same truths as did Christ and the Apostles, we are all in communion with one another, we all submit to the authority of the representative of Christ, the Pope, and we all make up the one HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC Church.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
By your remarks, Edwin, I don’t think that you truly know the Catholic Church. Even though there are different Rites and disciplines, the Catholic Church is still one.

We all make the same confession of faith, we all teach the same truths as did Christ and the Apostles, we are all in communion with one another, we all submit to the authority of the representative of Christ, the Pope, and we all make up the one HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC Church.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
I agree, thats the beauty of the CC. Although we may have different disciplines we all have the same teaching and the same truth. Its like Christmas. Christmas is the birth if our dear Lord Jesus. But while we have Turkey you can have steak. Whatever your family likes. Its your Tradition. But the main objective is the same. The teaching is the same. Christmas is the birth of our Lord.😃
 
And what becomes of “one bishop, one city”?

That’s what I’m talking about. Diversity of Rites is a wonderful thing. But all Christians in one place should gather around one altar, under one bishop or his subordinate presbyters. That is, on the most basic level, what the unity of the Church means.

Your Communion has forgotten this. Therefore your Communion is less than fully Catholic, for all your pretensions.

Edwin
That would be great Edwin. And I believe it will happen one day. I really do. And then we will have the Church back the way it was started. Back to the 12! That is why I love the RCC. It is still the same. With Peter leading the way!😃
 
:rolleyes: I’m sure you’ll always find something to criticize. After all, when certain higher-ups in our Communion were trying to suppress the other Rites and make everyone Latin, your side all got your panties in a bunch then, too. 🤷
Yes, and I object to that too, for exactly the same reason. Both approaches ignore the reality of the local Church.

The *local *Church should get to decide these things. Dividing the Church into parallel “sui juris churches” isn’t the answer.

I’m not trying to find something to criticize. I’m trying to articulate and defend the Church’s Tradition as I see it. It’s not my fault that your Communion abandoned patristic ecclesiology some time ago.

Edwin
 
By your remarks, Edwin, I don’t think that you truly know the Catholic Church. Even though there are different Rites and disciplines, the Catholic Church is still one.

We all make the same confession of faith, we all teach the same truths as did Christ and the Apostles, we are all in communion with one another, we all submit to the authority of the representative of Christ, the Pope, and we all make up the one HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC Church.
Javl,

I have frequently found that when I express disagreement with some aspect of Catholicism, Catholics tell me that I “don’t understand,” or in this case, don’t “know,” Catholicism. If by “know” you mean the knowledge that comes from full participation and agreement–sure, I don’t “know.” But I do understand the position you articulate–I just disagree with it. There is more to the unity of the church than everyone signing off on a set of beliefs and submitting to the Pope’s authority. This is a distorted and truncated vision of unity.

I repeat: for St. Ignatius and for the early Fathers generally (I would argue that we first see this in 1 Corinthians), unity means that the Christians in one place gather around one altar under one bishop. Your Communion has chosen to ignore this aspect of the Tradition. That is your choice. But you do not have the right to tell those of us who accept this part of the Catholic heritage that we “don’t understand” or are just making a fuss over nothing. This appears to me to be as essential a part of what the Fathers say about the Church as is the unity of all local churches through the communion of their bishops with one another. And I think it’s more essential than Roman primacy per se, although I don’t expect to persuade you of that. (And yes, I believe in Roman primacy.)

Edwin
 
Javl,

I have frequently found that when I express disagreement with some aspect of Catholicism, Catholics tell me that I “don’t understand,” or in this case, don’t “know,” Catholicism. If by “know” you mean the knowledge that comes from full participation and agreement–sure, I don’t “know.” But I do understand the position you articulate–I just disagree with it. There is more to the unity of the church than everyone signing off on a set of beliefs and submitting to the Pope’s authority. This is a distorted and truncated vision of unity.

I repeat: for St. Ignatius and for the early Fathers generally (I would argue that we first see this in 1 Corinthians), unity means that the Christians in one place gather around one altar under one bishop. Your Communion has chosen to ignore this aspect of the Tradition. That is your choice. But you do not have the right to tell those of us who accept this part of the Catholic heritage that we “don’t understand” or are just making a fuss over nothing. This appears to me to be as essential a part of what the Fathers say about the Church as is the unity of all local churches through the communion of their bishops with one another. And I think it’s more essential than Roman primacy per se, although I don’t expect to persuade you of that. (And yes, I believe in Roman primacy.)

Edwin
Back in those days, and even up until relatively recently, everyone who lived in a particular city was of the same culture and language. So, it would have made sense to have them all under the same Bishop - and if you were in the East, he was an Eastern Bishop and if you were in the West, he was a Western Bishop. Makes sense, for back then.

However, nowadays, with globalization in most industries, it’s rare for people to remain in the city they were born in, and even more rare for people to remain in the same city where their parents were born, or where their cultural practice comes from.

I live in Calgary, which has a reputation for being very “white” and “red-neck” - in spite of that reputation, most of the people I work with are from India, the Philippines, and South America. This city also has well-established populations of Ukranians, Russians, Chinese, and French. These families and communities continue to practice their culture and religion in their language of origin, in spite of the fact that they now live in the “cowboy country.”

I expect that every reasonably sized city in the world is experiencing the same thing.

Should people who come to Calgary be required to give up their culture and language in favour of English-speaking Masses in the Latin Rite, simply because their Dad’s boss has said, “You will now move to Calgary”?

Or, how, exactly, do you propose to accommodate the diversity that we see in the modern world? (Perhaps Bishop Henry should be in charge of the Ukranians and the Russians, as well? 🤷 Then we come back again to the problem of people being integrated against their will into the Latin Rite.)
 
I think 9 out of 10 people in here would have a different definition of “Roman primacy.” My understanding of Roman Primacy, after reading from Orthodox and Anglican authors through the years (not even close to the volumes you have read :p) is that the Pope is to be respected as the Chair of Peter, the first among equals, the coryphaeus, the head of the table, whose opinions and guidance are to be cherished, respected, and seriously considered at any council or deliberation about morals or theology.

The definition I think many here have of Roman Primacy is that since the Pope possesses the Chair of Peter, he is infallible, universally possesing a jurisdiction over all other bishops and his word is always and must always be the FINAL say. He is prime and supreme and incapable of error in faith and morals. The infallibility of Vatican I is tied to their definition of primacy.

So when you two are having an exchange of ideas here, I don’t think you’re both on the same sheet of music, or at least I’m assuming so (you know what happens when one assumes! :D)
Javl,

I have frequently found that when I express disagreement with some aspect of Catholicism, Catholics tell me that I “don’t understand,” or in this case, don’t “know,” Catholicism. If by “know” you mean the knowledge that comes from full participation and agreement–sure, I don’t “know.” But I do understand the position you articulate–I just disagree with it. There is more to the unity of the church than everyone signing off on a set of beliefs and submitting to the Pope’s authority. This is a distorted and truncated vision of unity.

I repeat: for St. Ignatius and for the early Fathers generally (I would argue that we first see this in 1 Corinthians), unity means that the Christians in one place gather around one altar under one bishop. Your Communion has chosen to ignore this aspect of the Tradition. That is your choice. But you do not have the right to tell those of us who accept this part of the Catholic heritage that we “don’t understand” or are just making a fuss over nothing. This appears to me to be as essential a part of what the Fathers say about the Church as is the unity of all local churches through the communion of their bishops with one another. And I think it’s more essential than Roman primacy per se, although I don’t expect to persuade you of that. (And yes, I believe in Roman primacy.)

Edwin
 
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