My thoughts on the Pope's statements, and Islam

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Thekla said:
If you have an argument to make, then make it. But don’t assume and state things that are untrue as a method of deflection. I indicated way back in Post #69 that I had read the Holy Father’s lecture and I stand by what I said.

Of course I get what you are talking about; it’s hardly a new or original argument. The “It’s their nature” position that you seem bent upon maintaining, has a pretty bad history. After all, we’ve heard it from Christians rationalizing the oppression of Jews, whites rationalizing the oppression of blacks, and men rationalizing the oppression of women. It certainly isn’t new or puzzling; it’s just tired and disappointing.
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Thekla said:
If you have an argument to make, then make it. But don’t assume and state things that are untrue as a method of deflection. I indicated way back in Post #69 that I had read the Holy Father’s lecture and I stand by what I said.
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Excuuuse me for thinking you haven’t read his speech dued to your persistence thinking. I’ve made my argument in case you didn’t realize.
Of course I get what you are talking about; it’s hardly a new or original argument. The “It’s their nature” position that you seem bent upon maintaining, has a pretty bad history. After all, we’ve heard it from Christians rationalizing the oppression of Jews, whites rationalizing the oppression of blacks, and men rationalizing the oppression of women. It certainly isn’t new or puzzling; it’s just tired and disappointing.
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Comparing Muslims’ action w/ Jews, whites, blacks, and women is ridiculous! If there were any oppression against Jews, whites, blacks, and women, it’s called discrimination. They can’t help being who they are. The ‘nature’ of Muslims to react violently for every offense is an habitual nature.
Please distinguish between the two ‘nature’ !

Everyone has a nature of some sort. Habitual, be it good or bad. You call it whatever you want.

Understand the context I’m using the term in.
 
cathgal said:
Excuuuse me for thinking you haven’t read his speech dued to your persistence thinking. I’ve made my argument in case you didn’t realize. Comparing Muslims’ action w/ Jews, whites, blacks, and women is ridiculous! If there were any oppression against Jews, whites, blacks, and women, it’s called discrimination. They can’t help being who they are. The ‘nature’ of Muslims to react violently for every offense is an habitual nature. Please distinguish between the two ‘nature’ ! Everyone has a nature of some sort. Habitual, be it good or bad. You call it whatever you want. Understand the context I’m using the term in.
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Your assuming I hadn’t read the Holy Father’s lecture was an assumption easily averted. You could have either read the thread or asked me before making that assumption.

As for the “It’s their nature” argument, I find it a stereotype that really can’t be defended. The world is a big place and there are 1.5 billion Muslims in it; “they” don’t all do anything. Throughout history, oppressors have used racism, discrimination, and stereotyping to justify their bad behavior. Your “It’s in their nature” argument sounds like what has been used against women, blacks, and Jews. I understand your context very well and see it as the same kind of stereotyping that has been ill-used throughout history. It’s really very sad to see it voiced here.
 
Thekla said:
Your assuming I hadn’t read the Holy Father’s lecture was an assumption easily averted. You could have either read the thread or asked me before making that assumption.
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I didn’t assume. You took the Pope’s comment out of context and it was all you care to point out and complain about persistently. Is it a wonder I assumed you didn’t read his speech.
As for the “It’s their nature” argument, I find it a stereotype that really can’t be defended. The world is a big place and there are 1.5 billion Muslims in it; “they” don’t all do anything. Throughout history, oppressors have used racism, discrimination, and stereotyping to justify their bad behavior. Your “It’s in their nature” argument sounds like what has been used against women, blacks, and Jews. I understand your context very well and see it as the same kind of stereotyping that has been ill-used throughout history. It’s really very sad to see it voiced here.
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You’ve lost track of the discussion. My only point is is it true that Muslims acted violently to every offense. True or false??
Why do you have to make the discussion sooo complicated by bringing all these racism, stereotyping and such irrelevancy??
Geeez !!

Just cut the craps and said you want to defend them for their violent actions! Is that so hard?!
 
I liked the comment that was in our “opinion line” section of our newspaper the other day. It’s a daily column of comments called into a recorded line.

The comment was:

“Muslims were offended by the Pope’s remarks. I’m offended by videotaped beheadings and suicide bombers.”

Slam dunk, I thought. Let’s keep things in perspective.

BTW, I noticed that much of the bandwidth in this post is debating tactics and challenging each other as posters. It’s kind of fun, but it creates a pretty low signal-to-noise ratio. Of course, I must share the “credit” for this sorry condition, as this comment in itself is technically part of the noise. Thus, I’m just making an observation; I didn’t say I was any better. 😛

Alan
 
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cathgal:
Now you are asking this as a question when earlier you stated it as fact. You said, " Don’t blame the Pope for the Muslims’ reaction. It’s their nature. They need to learn how to handle the truth."

You are the one who has been making the “It’s their nature” argument and obviously I disagree with you. I don’t think that groups are, by their nature, lazy, or greedy, or subservient, or violent." And my connection to your “It’s their nature” statement is highly relevant to the discussion. But I understand why you don’t like me pointing out similar racial and gender stereotyping that’s been used to oppress people.
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bones_IV said:
Look at this one.

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/09/it_was_inevitab.html

I don’t find the comics here humerous in the least.
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I thought they were humorous, and here’s why.

I’ve learned that humor is a mechanism that human souls use when trying to reconcile a non sequitur or something that is exaggerated.

Sure it is a very serious issue, but humor can break the ice, if by nothing else than by distracting if only for a moment, from the seriousness of a situation.

The first time I truly recognized this is when a finally agreed to listen to a standup routine by a foul-mouthed comedian, Chris Rock. It took a while to get over some of the language and catch onto the attitude, but I was actually blown away at some of the material he covered, and how easily he slipped in truths that I’ve never heard said before. The one that impressed me most was his talk about domestic abuse. I used to work as a volunteer answering a youth crisis hotline, and I took calls from girls and women who were being abused by their fathers, mothers, mothers’ boyfriends, to name a few. Rock’s talk was absolutely brilliant, and to the point, and he spoke some extremely truthful things I’d never heard put into words both about how terrible it is to hit a woman, but also how a woman might behave to reduce their chances of an attack. All this was done under the cloak of “humor” but then I realized, and have realized many times since then, that comedians serve an absolutely vital purpose.

Similar to that is a philosophy lecture I heard once discussing the role of the court jester, back in the days when they were around. The role of the jester was to keep the king from taking himself too seriously, and to make inappropriate comments to keep him “on his toes” and even say things that others would like to say but can’t for getting their heads chopped off. For example, if there was an important meeting where the king had a certain way he wanted to do things, others might want to protest but they of course could not, but the jester could make a rude of contrary remark, which the king can then laugh or scold the jester, but at least the idea has been presented – and sometimes the king would change his whole plan. Of course, he would not attribute the plan to the jester, because the jester was not in a position of authority.

Cartoons, especially about very serious topics, can open the doors for discussion in ways that other methods can’t.

Alan
 
CathCentrist said:
Dont *quote *ancient people to a group of people who you KNOW have the potential to react radically in thought and deed - and then take an easy out and say, those views arent your own. Then you shouldnt have quoted it at all or in the least, QUANTIFY FURTHER what your meaning was.
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I’m trying to stay out of most of these threads regarding what the Pope said but I have to make a comment on the part that’s bolded above (bolded by the author).

To NOT say something because you fear the “potential” reaction is a condition of abuse and the EXACT result terrorists want. (look up the definition of terrorism). I am NOT equating Mulisms with terrorists (not trying to break any CAF rules here), but I’m just saying that if you fear the reaction of anyone, then they have, in a sense, used terroristic mind games on you to believe that if you say or do anything that MIGHT be offensive to them, then they have restricted you from speaking the Truth.

And the Pope did clarify it further rather quickly afterwards and he didn’t do anything wrong. He made a point and made it very well.
 
Thekla said:
It seems that people don’t want dialogue with Muslims, but rather they want the Holy Father to call out Islam and to slam the prophet Mohammed in the process.
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Thekla,

Your prophile says RCC, but you address Mohammed as a prophet? He is most definately not a prophet. Whatever Mohammed wrote was not from God. I do not see how someone can believe he was a prophet of God and also claim to be Catholic.

Catholics know that for all mankind Jesus Christ was the final public revalation; He is the Eternal Word.
 
Thekla said:
That is odd because the Holy Father said that the quote from the emperor does not express his (the Holy Father’s) belief.

It seems that people don’t want dialogue with Muslims, but rather they want the Holy Father to call out Islam and to slam the prophet Mohammed in the process.

“It’s their nature?” I think we’ve heard that sort of dismissal made about blacks and women and Jews. The “It’s their nature” argument has been used as a rationale for oppression and racism. And I hardly think that the Holy Father meant to foster that kind of conduct.
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You call yourself Catholic but want to address Mohammad as a prophet? Mohammad spread a heresy and brought conversion by violence. The Church does not recognize Mohammad as a prophet.
 
MichaelTDoyle said:
Whatever Mohammed wrote was not from God.
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If that is so, why does the Church respect that faith so? Every religion shares in and proclaims some of the Truth, including Islam and Judaism, and even the religions who do not worship the One God.
 
I admire your response, Richard and to some extant I agree with it; it brings up an important distinction.

The Catholic Church receives the charism for teaching from God.
Pagan religions, false religions may have aspects of the truth because man is made in the image of God and his heart longs for God, but that is not the same thing as directly receiving and following God commandments.

Certainly those teachings derived from the natural longing for God in the hearts of mankind are worthy of respect, but because of Man’s fallen nature and the lack of a charism come many falsehoods that are dangerous, e.g. denial of the Son of God.

Our Church, however, is the mystical spotless bride of Christ and should never be relativistically compared to religions that while they may have some teachings are in the main leading away from the Blessed Trinity and so their followers, separated from Christ’s true church, are blown by the wind to any teaching that tickles their ears.
peace
 
Thekla said:
Now you are asking this as a question when earlier you stated it as fact. You said, " Don’t blame the Pope for the Muslims’ reaction. It’s their nature. They need to learn how to handle the truth."
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You still don’t follow me. I stated it as a fact, but you didn’t get my point so I have to stated it as a question. You have yet to answer the question. Why do you keep avoiding it.
You are the one who has been making the “It’s their nature” argument and obviously I disagree with you. I don’t think that groups are, by their nature, lazy, or greedy, or subservient, or violent." And my connection to your “It’s their nature” statement is highly relevant to the discussion. But I understand why you don’t like me pointing out similar racial and gender stereotyping that’s been used to oppress people.
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I’ve explained to you and I’ll explain again one last time.
Nature. A person is born with it or acquire it by habit.

Now, what is the reaction of Muslims when their religion is criticized?
And keep it simple! I don’t need your ‘analyses’ .

If you can’t handle a simple question, just call it quit.

This discussion is getting waaay tedious!
 
MichaelTDoyle said:
Our Church, however, is the mystical spotless bride of Christ and should never be relativistically compared to religions that while they may have some teachings are in the main leading away from the Blessed Trinity and so their followers, separated from Christ’s true church, are blown by the wind to any teaching that tickles their ears.
peace
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An answer I can respect, though somewhat triumphalist IMO.
 
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