My thoughts so far on the Catholic Church

[po18guy]

Lots to go over. Thank you again. I’m most likely gonna get paper cuts from all the verses JustaServant posted.(Which is cool, I love looking up verses in the Bible)

www.biblegateway.com is much faster, no paper cuts, and numerous bible versions are available, including the Catholic 1899 Douay-Rheims. Have a look.

Do you have a copy of Catholicism for Dummies? GREAT book. Every Christian should have a copy.

 

[lutherlic]

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

and much more…

ScriptureCatholic.com (the source for your quote?) has all of this too – it is an excellent resource. OP, it is highly recommended.

See: Purgatory and Purgatory Q&A

 

[SteveVH]

Purgatory is, simply, the mercy of God; the means by which the imperfect may finally enter the perfect. I thank God for the gift of purgatory.

 

[RebeccaJ]

batman1973, lots of good resources, I’ll only add, that even when our sins are forgiven now, the temporal effects of those sins still remain. People who we’ve wronged, may still be experiencing or feeling the effects of our sins. That sort of thing. The same goes for our souls, sin has a temporal effect on our souls. Purgatory is where we are cleansed of these effects. From the CCC

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.

I also recommend reading the poem by Blessed John Henry Newman, “The Dream Of Gerontius”

SEVENTH PHASE

ANGEL:

NOW let the golden prison open its gates,
Making sweet music, as each fold revolves
Upon its ready hinge. And ye great powers,
Angels of Purgatory, receive from me
My charge, a precious soul, until the day,
When, from all bond and forfeiture released,
I shall reclaim it for the courts of light.

SOULS IN PURGATORY:

1.     LORD, Thou hast been our refuge: in every generation;

2.     Before the hills were born, and the world was: from age to age thou art God.

3.     Bring us not, Lord, very low: for Thou hast said, Come back again, ye sons of Adam.

4.     A thousand years before Thine eyes are but as yesterday: and as a watch of the night which is come and gone.

5.     The grass springs up in the morning: at evening-tide it shrivels up and dies.

6.     So we fail in Thine anger: and in Thy wrath we are troubled.

7.     Thou hast set our sins in Thy sight: and our round of days in the light of Thy countenance.

8.     Come back, O Lord! how long: and be en*treated for Thy servants.

9.     In Thy morning we shall be filled with Thy mercy: we shall rejoice and be in pleasure all our days.

10.   We shall be glad according to the days ot our humiliation: and the years in which we have seen evil.

11.   Look, O Lord, upon Thy servants and on Thy work: and direct their children.

12.   And let the beauty of the Lord our God be upon us: and the work of our hands, establish Thou it.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son: and to the Holy Ghost.
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be: world without end. Amen.

ANGEL:

SOFTLY and gently, dearly-ransomed soul,
In my most loving arms I now enfold thee,
And, o’er the penal waters, as they roll,
I poise thee, and I lower thee, and hold thee.

And carefully I dip thee in the lake,
And thou, without a sob or a resistance,
Dost through the flood thy rapid passage take,
Sinking deep, deeper, into the dim distance.
Angels, to whom the willing task is given,
Shall tend, and nurse, and lull thee, as thou liest;
And Masses on the earth and prayers in heaven,
Shall aid thee at the Throne of the most Highest.

Farewell, but not forever! Brother dear,
Be brave and patient on thy bed of sorrow;
Swiftly shall pass thy night of trial here,
And I will come and wake thee on the morrow.

 

[JustaServant]

ScriptureCatholic.com (the source for your quote?) has all of this too – it is an excellent resource. OP, it is highly recommended.

See: Purgatory and Purgatory Q&A

I always use scripturecatholic.com, I forgot to link it though. Thanks

 

[rikkk1958]

I have been studying the Catholic Church for a few months now, and I am in agreement with much the church teaches. For example, I have no issues with asking Mary or the Saints to pray with me,(The more the merrier) I have no issue with praying the Rosary(I love devotionals) I am in agreement of the stance of Apostolic Authority. Here, however, is my issue. I am having trouble reconciling Purgatory. I feel that it is unnesessary. I say that, not to pick a fight, but, from my understanding of Holy Scripture. When Jesus hung on the cross and cried “It is finished”(John 19:30) that’s what He ment. He forgave our sins. More importantly, He forgave my sins.His precious blood cleansed us from all** unrighteousness. I believe that if we accept that finished work, then we are made clean.I believe we can lose our salvation, but, we can just as easily get it back(1 John 1:9) Since Jesus cleanses us from our unrightous state, then we dont have to worry about No unclean thing entering into God’s Kingdom, since we are made clean through the Blood.

I don’t think that the statement “it is finished” really meant totally the forgiveness of our sins. It may be the conclusion of His life for the forgiveness of our sins but it may also meant for the Jewish traditions. You have to look after when He said it, the curtains closed and walls broke up inside the temple.

 

[Lifesong]

I too had a hard time with the Purgatory concept as a Methodist- of course there is not much Hell talk in my old church but lots of talk about Heaven-LOL! All of your explainations make sense to me now but it took me a while to get there. Now I love praying for relatives who passed if they need help on the journey and to pray for me on my Earthly part of the journey. I still like watching Joyce Meyer, not for doctrine of course but sometimes I think there is a hidden Catholic in there somewhere the way she talks about accountability. One of her shows last year helped me when she described1 Corinthians 3 and about works being burned up- her take which was that you may be “saved” but you won’t enjoy all that Jesus died to give you if you don’t follow Him in this life and your reward in Heaven will be less. A very evangelical take of course but it hit me that she was talking about Purgatory and she didn’t even know it No worries, I listen to less of Joyce these days and more Catholic Answers, but to me this is an illustration of how in my Protestant life we had parts of the truth and it is fun to discover what the full truth is.

 

[po18guy]

I too had a hard time with the Purgatory concept as a Methodist- of course there is not much Hell talk in my old church but lots of talk about Heaven-LOL! All of your explainations make sense to me now but it took me a while to get there. Now I love praying for relatives who passed if they need help on the journey and to pray for me on my Earthly part of the journey. I still like watching Joyce Meyer, not for doctrine of course but sometimes I think there is a hidden Catholic in there somewhere the way she talks about accountability. One of her shows last year helped me when she described1 Corinthians 3 and about works being burned up- her take which was that you may be “saved” but you won’t enjoy all that Jesus died to give you if you don’t follow Him in this life and your reward in Heaven will be less. A very evangelical take of course but it hit me that she was talking about Purgatory and she didn’t even know it No worries, I listen to less of Joyce these days and more Catholic Answers, but to me this is an illustration of how in my Protestant life we had parts of the truth and it is fun to discover what the full truth is.

Do you have a copy of Catholicism for Dummies? Every RCIA program should hand it out. It carries both the nihil obstat and the Imprimatur, so it may be used as a catechism. I learn something each time I dare to open my copy.

 

[Lifesong]

Do you have a copy of Catholicism for Dummies? Every RCIA program should hand it out. It carries both the nihil obstat and the Imprimatur, so it may be used as a catechism. I learn something each time I dare to open my copy.

I do, I read it through last summer and still refer to it, it is extremely helpful, thank you! I am soaking in all I can! Speaking of purgatory, had friends over last night and one my cradle Catholic and Catholic school educated friends mentioned he always thought of it as waiting for a train. I tend to think of it not as a place but a cleansing process- guess we will all find out. I just keep my eyes on Jesus and trust in Him- I don’t have to know all the answers before Easter Vigil or even before I leave the Earth.
God Bless,

Val

 

[Carolus_Martell]

Batman are your issues with Purgatory such that you wont partake of the sacrament of Penance? If so you are gambling with you immortal soul…Purgatory is part of church dogma.

Just thinking out loud that until you reach age 75 most Catholics have some issues…it just isn’t easy being a good Catholic. The God of our Fathers didn’t even let his beloved servant Moses into the promised land for a slight transgression… so you cherry pick tenets to your souls eternal peril. I believe God did that for a lesson to us living in the here and now. God wanted examples that his standards are rather demanding but not impossible.

As Catholics we’re always reminded that we’ll be dead for a lot longer than than we are alive.

Now with Purgatory your chances for eternal salvation go from 50/50 to 66 2/3 or 331/3

 

[batman1973]

I’ve gotten great responses. Some of you have said that puratory is a place of refinement, others, a place of punishment. I sill see that purgatory negates the work of Jesus. He was insuffiecent, and I must make my own atonement. Jesus was punished for our sins. He was beaten nearly to death. This punishment was to heal me(Isa.53:5). Then, as I said earlier, he took my sins(and everyones elses) to the cross to pay for those sins, so that we were no longer out of God’s favor.(Rom 4:8) A great analogy given to me was kids playing ball broke my window. They were sorry, repented, and I forgave them, but the window is still broken. In this case, I broke a few windows at God’s house,I beg forgivness, and recieve it, but then His Son, offers to take my punishment, and He also pays for the new windows. For those of you who said that sin stains the soul( it does) Jesus blood more than suffiecently erases that stain of sin (Isa 1:18) I could believe the doctrine of purgatory if it were for those who die without a full knowledge of Christ, but certaintly not for a believer. All of what I’ve studyed on the bible states that once I’ve accepted His finished work, I’m healed, and cleansed. I become a new creation in Christ. (2 Cor.5:17)Will I still sin? Yeah. I’m human. I will still sin. But, I will be forgiven because of Jesus. God will welcome me into His Kingdom, because of His Son, not for anything I did. Honestly, I don’t know who will be more suprised to see me in Heaven: Me, or God.

 

[pablope]

I’ve gotten great responses. Some of you have said that puratory is a place of refinement, others, a place of punishment. I sill see that purgatory negates the work of Jesus. He was insuffiecent, and I must make my own atonement. Jesus was punished for our sins. He was beaten nearly to death. This punishment was to heal me(Isa.53:5). Then, as I said earlier, he took my sins(and everyones elses) to the cross to pay for those sins, so that we were no longer out of God’s favor.(Rom 4:8) All of what I’ve studyed on the bible states that once I’ve accepted His finished work, I’m healed, and cleansed. I become a new creation in Christ. (2 Cor.5:17)Will I still sin? Yeah. I’m human. I will still sin. But, I will be forgiven because of Jesus. God will welcome me into His Kingdom, because of His Son, not for anything I did. Honestly, I don’t know who will be more suprised to see me in Heaven: Me, or God.

Did you read post 15…and the explanation by Scott Hahn, which dealt with your issues here?

I will post his conclusion…I do hope you go back and read it if you have not.

Now what does this mean, that Christ has not paid for our sin? Of course not. It doesn’t mean that. Christ has paid once and for all for our sin. His death is the ultimate satisfaction and price for our redemption, but His life and His death must be lived out in us. That’s why we need to pick up our cross, and we need to imitate Christ. Did you catch that? We don’t suffer because Christ’s sufferings weren’t enough. We suffer because Christ’s life must be reproduced in us. It is finished. It is accomplished, but now it must be applied. The work of the third person of the Holy Spirit is New Testament history, is personal history.

 

[JustaServant]

When I was in fundamentalism years ago, I noticed almost immediately a fascination with ‘knowing for sure’ who goes to Heaven and who does not. If it was someone who was an enemy, there is a strange and sick satisfaction in ‘knowing’ their enemies are ‘burning in Hell’. It gives them a feeling of ‘justice’.
If it was a loved one, they weep because they ‘know’ they are in Hell because they remained Catholic. Little children are told grandma and grandpa are ‘burning in Hell.’ (I actually witnessed this myself) Since fundamentalism allows no belief in purgatory, there is no alternative. In fundamentalism, we miss our loved ones without a promise of ever seeing them again.
We wept differently.
There is no ‘hope’, only ‘surety’ that one must convince oneself over.There is an incredible freedom and joy in not having that fear again.
Catholics have the wonderful truth of Purgatory. Many think Purgatory is a way to avoid or ignore the realities of Hell. Purgatory is not necessarily a punishment but a final purification process. Some of us die with flaws on our souls that need to be removed before we can enter Heaven. Purgatory is Heaven’s bath tub.
Knowing that, we have the promise that we will see loved ones again. We can look into the face of a child and tell them, yes, you will see grandma and grandpa again.
I still miss my parents. Sometimes when I hear or see something that reminds me of when I was a little child, tears come to my eyes.
As a fundamentalist, those were tears of despire.
But now as a Catholic, those become tears of joy.
Catholics have the promise of Purgatory. Which displays the mercy of God.

 

[JRRTFAN]

I have been studying the Catholic Church for a few months now, and I am in agreement with much the church teaches. For example, I have no issues with asking Mary or the Saints to pray with me,(The more the merrier) I have no issue with praying the Rosary(I love devotionals) I am in agreement of the stance of Apostolic Authority. Here, however, is my issue. I am having trouble reconciling Purgatory. I feel that it is unnesessary. I say that, not to pick a fight, but, from my understanding of Holy Scripture. When Jesus hung on the cross and cried “It is finished”(John 19:30) that’s what He ment. He forgave our sins. More importantly, He forgave my sins.His precious blood cleansed us from all** unrighteousness. I believe that if we accept that finished work, then we are made clean.I believe we can lose our salvation, but, we can just as easily get it back(1 John 1:9) Since Jesus cleanses us from our unrightous state, then we dont have to worry about No unclean thing entering into God’s Kingdom, since we are made clean through the Blood.

That’s understandable as you are evaluating what you have been told as a non-Catholic by uninformed Catholics or by non-Catholics.

Think of it this way and cogitate it. You are made up of 2 components, a body and a soul. At the time of death your soul is all that is animated of YOU, it is you. Whatever you loved, whatever you didn’t love, whatever and whoever you hated or liked or disliked is still held that way by your soul. If you love your mother, your soul will still love her after death.

Let’s say you have a nasty habit, like I do of being overbearing, or you like to gossip, or you’re critical or prideful. Those things are forgiven if you are repentent, but your soul is still your soul. It may like a little gossip, it may covet, if you did, it does because your soul is you.

Revelation says nothing unclean shall enter heaven. All of those states of soul are unclean. If you are not purified of them into a state of pure love of God and not of those things, you can’t get into heaven, even though you are without active unforgiven sin. Such conditions preclude the beatific vision.

It’s got nothing to do with a limited atonement by Jesus, it’s about your persoanl state of love for God rather than self at death. Does that clarify anything?

Personally I am very glad there is a Purgatorial state otherwise there is no way my nasty self would get to heaven.

 

[PJM]

**

=batman1973;8967767]I have been studying the Catholic Church for a few months now, and I am in agreement with much the church teaches. For example, I have no issues with asking Mary or the Saints to pray with me,(The more the merrier) I have no issue with praying the Rosary(I love devotionals) I am in agreement of the stance of Apostolic Authority. Here, however, is my issue. I am having trouble reconciling Purgatory. I feel that it is unnesessary. I say that, not to pick a fight, but, from my understanding of Holy Scripture. When Jesus hung on the cross and cried “It is finished”(John 19:30) that’s what He ment. He forgave our sins. More importantly, He forgave my sins.His precious blood cleansed us from all

** unrighteousness. I believe that if we accept that finished work, then we are made clean.I believe we can lose our salvation, but, we can just as easily get it back(1 John 1:9) Since Jesus cleanses us from our unrightous state, then we dont have to worry about No unclean thing entering into God’s Kingdom, since we are made clean through the Blood.

My DEAR friend in Christ;

It’s a nice thought but it’s not actually biblical or the COMPLETE Truth.

Here’s what the effects of Christ Death AND ressurication actually accomplished.

1. We [the entireity of humanity] are NOW a “Redeemed” people:thumbsup: This means that the gate of heaven once locked beasue of the sins of Adam and Eve is once again open [Thus Jesus Gave the KEYS to this heavenly gate to Peter and the RCC] [Matt. 16:15-19; Matt. 18;18; Matt. 28:16-20; John 20:19-23].
2. Redeemed has a seperate meaning than does “salvation”
3. For very profound reasons that Only God can answer wtih certinity; He god choose to Created all of humanity in His own Image.** [Gen. 1:26-17],** We emulate God with our SPIRITAL gifts [God is Spirt and truth [Jn.4:23-24] of our minds, Intellects and freewills wich are permnantly attached to our souls. Liek god they can neither die or be killed.
4. The Mystery of salvation stems around the FACT that God desires and Demands that we use these special God=Like Gifts to cooperate with Him in meriting our salvation.
5. The philosophy that anyone can simply acknowlwdge Jesus as God and merit sdalvation is a purely human invention; a falsehood, and a grave lack of Right understnading. the Process of salvation has many requirements and commands.
6. One of the factors evloves around the FACT that one MUST suffer with and for Christ; if one HOPES to share in Christ Glory.

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me
Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 ***Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” ***

**1Pet.5: 1, 9 ** “So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world.”

**1Pet.4: 13 **” But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

Phil.1: 29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “

2Thes.1: 5 “This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering “

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

And this is but ONE of the mandates

God Bless you my friend,
Pat

 

[Yerusalyim]

I haven’t read all the responses, I’m sure some of them are awesome. I’ll pick up a line from one poster and expand upon it. I’m not going to refer you to scripture verses as many have already covered that base. Remember first, that all those who undergo purgation are already assured of salvation. Purgatory isn’t a testing place. Our sins are already forgiven. Everyone who undergoes purgation will be in heaven. Some undergo purgation on earth…others must wait.

“Don’t look upon purgatory as a punishment” look at it like a preparation. We are prepared to see God as he truly is, to become like him and remain with him forever. You seem to have no problem with the idea of the communion of saints. Here on earth, even as Christians, we still commit sin, correct? We’re not perfect…we’re forgiven. Though I’m a Christian I might have a slip of the tongue…an unkind thought…a lustful thought. How is it, then, that we do not sin in heaven? There is no place for sin in heaven. If I can have an unkind thought about a fellow Christian here on earth…why won’t I do the same in heaven?

Even though we are baptized and forgiven Christians we still have an attachment…an attraction if you will, to sin. To get past that we must be purified…our sin nature must be completely purged (purgation) so that we can then see God as he truly is. Some very few accomplish that on earth…through the mercy of Christ. These are the saints…most of us, however, still have that slight attraction to sin. We must therefore have this purged from us after death. A personality change if you will. Thus purgatory can be explained as “painful” because any personality change is a painful process. I relate it to my annulment process…it was painful to relive everything…to see my own fault and not just my ex-wife’s. It was a cathartic experience. Such, I think, is purgatory. What I think purgatory consists of is seeing our own sin for what it really is. Seeing how ugly and vile our sin is contrasted to the love and mercy of God. We might dismiss that momentary unkind thought as unimportant, small. While undergoing purgation we see its true ugliness. I believe in purgatory we undergo this and learn to live completely within the will of God, relying on his love and mercy to become worthy…through the stripes of Christ…to see God as he truly is…and not be shamed by our sin…but to feel loved worthily…and to love fully in return.

Remember, too, that the church does not officially teach purgatory as a place…nor that “time” is spent there. Only that it is a process. This process may be instantaneous, or may consists of seemingly thousands of years…but remember too, that in eternity time has no meaning. We have simply in popular culture attached “place” and “time” to a process.

For those reasons given above I also find it possible to reconcile the Catholic idea of purgatory with the protestant idea of sanctification.

I hope that helps.

 

[twoangels]

I have been studying the Catholic Church for a few months now, and I am in agreement with much the church teaches. For example, I have no issues with asking Mary or the Saints to pray with me,(The more the merrier) I have no issue with praying the Rosary(I love devotionals) I am in agreement of the stance of Apostolic Authority. Here, however, is my issue. I am having trouble reconciling Purgatory. I feel that it is unnesessary. I say that, not to pick a fight, but, from my understanding of Holy Scripture. When Jesus hung on the cross and cried “It is finished”(John 19:30) that’s what He ment. He forgave our sins. More importantly, He forgave my sins.His precious blood cleansed us from all** unrighteousness. I believe that if we accept that finished work, then we are made clean.I believe we can lose our salvation, but, we can just as easily get it back(1 John 1:9) Since Jesus cleanses us from our unrightous state, then we dont have to worry about No unclean thing entering into God’s Kingdom, since we are made clean through the Blood.

His work is finished. Unless you can demostrate that you have not even the remotest attachment to any sins, all your talk about being completely cleansed is just talk. Your conversion is not complete. Conversion happens day by day. Sometimes we do just tread water. We have hope with the grace of God that we may find the grace to fully give ourselves completely to Him. Purguatory is hope that even though we’re likely still in the struggle to the very end, that grace will make its final place in us and we will truly be holy.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by batman1973
My mind can’t seem to grasp that if I confess all my sins, receive absolution, then died in a car wreck on 350 highway on my way home from church, that i wouldnt go to heaven to be with Jesus. What sins are left to burn off? Was I not made clean through confession and absolution? More study and lots more prayer is needed

.

My dear friend in Christ;

Using the FACTS as you supplied them:

1. Such a person WOULD go to heaven ALTHOUGH perhaps??? Not directly.
2. Because ALL sins have a public aspect to them [they effect others besides ourselves] there is a penalty in Devine Justice that requires that this debt incurred too MUST be repaid before one can enter into heaven.
3. That is why God in His Mercy and Love created Purgatory; a place for repayment of these debts and a place where one is perfrected.
4. Yes; I KNOW the term is not in the “bible” BUT neither is the term “bible” in it. Yet both exist and are referenced therein.Each of the following verses apply to Purgatory:

Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

**Matt.5: 48 **“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

**Heb. 2: 10 **For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

1John.3: 2 to 3 “Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.”

1 Cor. 3: 13-14 “each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done if the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, [Purgatory] though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

As a FYI; ALL of this and more are covered in my Building Blocks of our Catholic Faith course in detail.

God Bless my friend,
Pat

 

[Cursilista]

I’ve gotten great responses. Some of you have said that puratory is a place of refinement, others, a place of punishment. I sill see that purgatory negates the work of Jesus. He was insuffiecent, and I must make my own atonement. Jesus was punished for our sins. He was beaten nearly to death. This punishment was to heal me(Isa.53:5). Then, as I said earlier, he took my sins(and everyones elses) to the cross to pay for those sins, so that we were no longer out of God’s favor.(Rom 4:8) A great analogy given to me was kids playing ball broke my window. They were sorry, repented, and I forgave them, but the window is still broken. In this case, I broke a few windows at God’s house,I beg forgivness, and recieve it, but then His Son, offers to take my punishment, and He also pays for the new windows. For those of you who said that sin stains the soul( it does) Jesus blood more than suffiecently erases that stain of sin (Isa 1:18) I could believe the doctrine of purgatory if it were for those who die without a full knowledge of Christ, but certaintly not for a believer. All of what I’ve studyed on the bible states that once I’ve accepted His finished work, I’m healed, and cleansed. I become a new creation in Christ. (2 Cor.5:17)Will I still sin? Yeah. I’m human. I will still sin. But, I will be forgiven because of Jesus. God will welcome me into His Kingdom, because of His Son, not for anything I did. Honestly, I don’t know who will be more suprised to see me in Heaven: Me, or God.

Batman,

By accepting Jesus as our lord and savior we are saved. But saved from what? I believed we are saved from eternal damnation. Now hear me out. We are saved from something , but he doesn’t say we are automaticaly guarenteed heaven. The bible states that heaven is a holy place and that nothing unholy can enter into it. Do you believe that just because a sinner is forgiven of his sins, that he is holy?

What i believe,(and i may be wrong) is that Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins, that forgiveness gives us a second chance. That second chance is purgatory. I see purgatory as a place of learning. We learn about God and his nature, we learn about our sins and how they offended God at the time we commited those sins. We learn how to change our thinking to coincide with how God wants us to be. Sometimes this learning requires a little suffering, we must face how we failed God while we lived our lives on earth. This in and of itself can be attributed to the cleansing by fire that Paul refers to. We burn when we have to admit our faults and failings. But afterwards, if we truly repent, we feel cleansed. After we die, our soul, our spiritual being exist and must be cleansed or purified to enter heaven. As humans, do we truly know the extent or reprecussions of our sins? We really learn them in purgatory. We really learn how to repent. We get a glimpse of everlasting life with God and we must strive to be pleasing to him in order to be with him. We are taught how to be pleasing to God in purgatory.

Remember that even in heaven as well as purgatory, we still have free will. We can choose to believe, to learn , to accept our faults, to repent, etc etc. After all the Angels, God’s original creations have free will. Satan had the free will to defy God and took 1/3 of the angels with him. Purgatory is like a training camp for heaven if you will. It test our free will. We all have our own course of study that Jesus has set up for us. We all have had different life experiences that we must understand and answer for till the last penny has been paid. We pray for those who have died, that they have learned from or have accepted the teachings and temporal punishments for their sins and have been purified enough to enter into heaven.

 

[PJM]

=batman1973;8978449]I’ve gotten great responses. Some of you have said that puratory is a place of refinement, others, a place of punishment. I sill see that purgatory negates the work of Jesus. He was insuffiecent, and I must make my own atonement. Jesus was punished for our sins. He was beaten nearly to death. This punishment was to heal me(Isa.53:5). Then, as I said earlier, he took my sins(and everyones elses) to the cross to pay for those sins, so that we were no longer out of God’s favor.(Rom 4:8) A great analogy given to me was kids playing ball broke my window. They were sorry, repented, and I forgave them, but the window is still broken. In this case, I broke a few windows at God’s house,I beg forgivness, and recieve it, but then His Son, offers to take my punishment, and He also pays for the new windows. For those of you who said that sin stains the soul( it does) Jesus blood more than suffiecently erases that stain of sin (Isa 1:18) I could believe the doctrine of purgatory if it were for those who die without a full knowledge of Christ, but certaintly not for a believer.

And that dear friend means you’re understanding of What Christ ACTUALLY accomplished is incomplte; even incorrect.

We can know this from logic. God is perfect and can’t “make a mistake.”

You’re understandong of what the bible say’s is also lacking RIGHT Understanding. And the Bible warns about the error you have fallen into.

Eph.3: 9 to 12 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: meaning THE CATHOLIC Church] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him

Matt.13:9-12 “He who has ears, let him hear." Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. “

2nd. Peter 3: 14-17 “Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability

**John 5: 37 **“And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen; and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life [Speaking of accepting the entire WORD of GOD]. I do not receive glory from men .[Meaning disobedience is rampant!] But I know that you have not the love of God within you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me” [Obey Me!]

EXAMPLES OF THIS TRUTH ARE THE PRIMACY OF PETER; THE POSITION OF CHRIST CC; THE EUCHARIST; FORGIVENESS OF SINS; AND HOW SALVATION ACTUALLY MIGHT BE POSSIBLWE. THE CC ALONE HOLDS THESE GODLY AND BIBLICAL TRUTH AND THAT IS WHY SHE ALONE HOLDS THE KEYS [ACCESS TO]HEAVEN.

2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 “You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

One will not attain their salvation ignoring the bible;cherry-picking verses that you think [in error] supprot your own faith beliefs or deciding for themselves not in accord with what the Bible actually teaches.

Keep in mind dear friend, that when the Bible was completely written is was birthed by the CC. The OT books selected and included and the ENTIRE NT is written by men known to be catholics. Further it was written FOR only Catholics; and the protestant community has adopted it; and transformed it into someting unintended by both God Himself and it’s God Inspired Authorrs.

That is why there are So MANY different understandings of it within the protestant community. Everyone feels entitled somehoe to there own opinions. YET there can only be one truth per issue and the CC along with the key to Understanding; ALONE is warrantied by BOTH the HS and Jesus Himself to ONLY teach what God Himself intended. [John 14;16-17; Jn.50:19-22; Mt. 16:15-19; mt. 16:18; jn. 17:15-19 and Matt. 28:16-20] are but some of the Bibles OWN testimony to what I share.

One can and many do choosr to ignore the FACTS and the TRUTH. The RISK here is that God MUST judge all of us; each of us; based on what He makes POSSIBLE for us to know. NOT what we choose to accept because it’s easier. more to my likeing ect.

God Bless you,
Pat