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dzheremi
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I’ve always maintained that there is some sense of “me too”-ism in Islam, which of course extends to the supposed prophetic mission of Muhammad. I see no reason to revise this conclusion.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Then perhaps you could clarify it. I never heard of “me too”-ism.
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agent_grey
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Yes. read about the wrestling match with Jacob.
And that in no way shape or form validates Mohamed as a prophet.
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dzheremi
Guest
Something akin to the OP’s contention that Muhammad saw himself as a prophet in line with the prophets of the previous religions. The Arabs, despite being counted among the believers of the previous religions (Arabs are among the peoples specifically mentioned as being present on the day of Pentecost in the book of Acts) did not have a prophet in the Biblical line from among their own people. This is what I mean by “me too”-ism. Whereas there were Arabs in large settlements in the Middle East prior to Islam, when Muhammad comes, he and his religion unites the Arabs. His religion and its successes form the nucleus and life’s blood of Arab (supra-)national aspirations, perhaps in a way similar to Jewish identification with Moses (I wouldn’t have made this comparison, but I see where the OP is coming from).
That’s what I mean. Muhammad is the Arab nation’s “me too” in response to the claims of previous religions that did not elevate them as they apparently see fit to be elevated. It should be pointed out that this is not so much my theory. Michel Aflaq, the Arab Christian who formed the Baath Party, praised Islam in some of his writings on very similar grounds. I suppose my interpretation is new in that I am framing it negatively (i.e., it makes Muhammad and Islam seem more dubious to me) while he and other Arabs have framed it positively.
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Sister_Amy
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I see.
If you ask me, the theory conflicts with known points from the prophetic biography. And numerous ahadith and the Qur’an to boot. But sure, Arabs love to believe they’re better than everyone else. (Despite the deen teaching them otherwise.)
If you ask me, the theory conflicts with known points from the prophetic biography. And numerous ahadith and the Qur’an to boot. But sure, Arabs love to believe they’re better than everyone else. (Despite the deen teaching them otherwise.)
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John_Paul_Jones
Guest
Israelites 11th to 7th BC, Israelis are citizens or nationals of the modern state of Israel.
How do you know muhammed was trying to play Moses and not trying to play (let say) Alexander the Great?
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dzheremi
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Oh, I’m well aware. That’s fine. Why should anyone expect otherwise? Notice that I did not say one thing about what Muhammad may have thought about what he was doing (I don’t think there’s any reason to doubt that he at some point probably became convinced that he really received revelations from God; didn’t Khadija tell him he did?). So it’s not really a problem for me that it contradicts what the Islamic sources say, though I can certainly understand why that’s a problem for you!
Hahaha. Ouch. Well…you said it, not me! The Arabs I know don’t think like that.
It’s interesting that you should use “deen”, by the way…kinda proves Aflaq’s/my point, though I’m sure you won’t agree. Peace.
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nablaise
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Sister Amy
Prophets are picked by God. Their job is to speak the truth. A precise word would be to ‘magnify’ the truth.
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nablaise
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It can be either or both, because at that time imperialism was the fashion. But the most pridominant and primary concern for him was to the restoration of what he understood to be the right way of living.
He was a Hanif (known then as the righteous ones), a minority group who were the only one left holding on to monotheism among descendants of Ismael. Considering that Jews were scattered and Christians were struggling with the Trinity while comfortable with statues, it is not hard to see how he can see his Hanif people as they only one practicing true Faith. I believe these Hanif are the ones refered to when he preached that Islam had always existed. He meant monotheism. And for him, monotheism was only clear and simple among the Hanif.
They believed that the Kaaba was the place where the remains of Hagar and Ismael were, and together with all Arabs had great respect for this place. They believed that Abraham had build it. I believe this is possible. Abraham was an astrologer, we know that God spoke to him several times through the stars. But he was growing in Faith as St. Peter suggested, he was still in ignorance of most things. This Mohammad and Muslims don’t seem to notice. So when a piece of meteor fell from the sky, he must have associated some special meaning with it and tried to preserve the event. Unfortunately, this had translated into worship of the stone (Muslim still kiss this back-stone to this day) and devotions revolved around it. By the time of Mohammad, there were about 360+ Idols having something to do with the days of the year (notice relationships with astrology). They were also yearly pilgrimage. Hanif detested this idolatry. The first things Mohammad did after taking Mecca over, was to destroy them and make the yearly pilgrimage a Muslim pilgrimage. And this for him was not a new thing, but a restoration of what Abraham, Hagar, and Ismael had started…that fountain where an angel caused water to flow when Ismael was thirsty was also venerated among the Arabs, Mohammad tried to gave a proper restoration of a pure practice.
As you can see, this is a restoration of Hagar’s values. At the end I see a deep relationship between the meaning of ‘Islam’ and the fact that Hagar was a slave woman. Is it a surprise then that Muslim consider themselves slaves of God ready to do ANYTHING if they are convinced that it is a command of God? Hagar had a slave respect for Abraham which translated as divine approval of ANYTHING Abraham were to ask of her. Islam was her personal devotion, her source of peace in accepting everything that happened to her as she served Abraham and Sarah. This form of Faith which incorporate slavery and concubinage as okay if it is the Will of Allah, was inherited by her faithful descendants down to Mohammad. He just restored it.
Sadly enough, Non-Arabic people have embraced it as being of a universal value without realizing that it is just a Hagar realm thing.
I think there is great hope though. Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar were imperfect human beings that God used for prophetic purpose. I just noticed a parallel between Hagar and Mary, I am quite surprised but it is beautiful, perhaps it will unite Catholics and Muslims.
Catholics are not used to meditating about Hagar and her greatness in the story, why would God help her, why would God make a great nation out of Ismael, etc…Muslims notice the greatness of Mary but don’t think much about it. If we go deep we see where we meet and at that point, God prefect his Holy Faith. For now, let’s just say that just as Hagar helped Abraham to have a child, so Mary helped God to have a child. They were both servants. Only one was serving an imperfect human being, the other was serving God directly. In both case, there is a sense of an abomination, yet also of greatness. In the Catholic language we say that God allows evil because he can derive a greater good out of it.
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MartinJordan
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As far as Im concerned Mohammad may have been actually well intentioned. What he thought was Christianity and Judaism, was unfortunately misguided. So with this imperfect understanding he truly wanted to unify the warring factions of Arab people.
Let’s not get started on the Ishmael story thought because it is also a point of contention. The Quran (please correct me If Im off base here) doesn’t even name the child that Abraham was going to sacrifice. right?
MJ
Let’s not get started on the Ishmael story thought because it is also a point of contention. The Quran (please correct me If Im off base here) doesn’t even name the child that Abraham was going to sacrifice. right?
MJ
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nablaise
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Correcting myself here for my neglect.
I should have said:
Mary helped God to have a human.
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nablaise
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I don’t know about Ishmael in the Quran. My Muslim friend told me that they believe that it was Ismael whom Abraham tried to sacrifice. It could be tribal rivarly about God concern for each. But it could also be possible that Abraham actually tried to sacrifice both. Perhaps the Jews simply mentioned Isaac because it was their particular story they were telling. However, if the Quaran does not say it, then I wonder where they get it…Hadith?
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Sam_777
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I sometimes think that Muhammed was deceived by his his 4 caliphs and the people around him to gain political power, money , and lands, some examples are when caliph Uthman burnt all copies of Quran and kept only his version, and when Muhammed was in his death bed he wanted to write something for his companions but was denied by caliph Umar:
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 70, Number 573:
When Allah’s Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, “Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.” 'Umar said, “The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur’an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us.” The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said “Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray,” while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah’s Apostle said, “Go away!” Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, “It was very unfortunate that Allah’s Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise.” (E)
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510:
“Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur’an, so he said to 'Uthman, “O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before.” So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, “Send us the manuscripts of the Qur’an so that we may compile the Qur’anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you.” Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, “In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur’an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur’an was revealed in their tongue.” They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur’anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur’an and I used to hear Allah’s Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): ‘Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.’ (33.23)” (E)
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 70, Number 573:
When Allah’s Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, “Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.” 'Umar said, “The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur’an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us.” The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said “Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray,” while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah’s Apostle said, “Go away!” Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, “It was very unfortunate that Allah’s Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise.” (E)
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510:
“Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur’an, so he said to 'Uthman, “O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before.” So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, “Send us the manuscripts of the Qur’an so that we may compile the Qur’anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you.” Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, “In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur’an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur’an was revealed in their tongue.” They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur’anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur’an and I used to hear Allah’s Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): ‘Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.’ (33.23)” (E)
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Sam_777
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Hey Hamba
, it wasn’t just the first meeting, it was always hard:Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 1, Number 2:
*(the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah’s Apostle “O Allah’s Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?” Allah’s Apostle replied, “Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes ’ off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says.” 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the Sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over). *
(E)
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MartinJordan
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What is for sure is the Pentateuch is very CLEAR it was Isaac. The Quran (after Ive looked through previous threads on this subject) it seems is NOT very clear about it. And that could be because Mohammad knew the facts, but somewhere along the ages things got fuzzy.
The Jews are very forthright in their writings and scripture (Mohammad I believe attested to that), so there is NO error on their part who was to be sacrificed.
MJ
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nablaise
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I agree
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nablaise
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I don’t think so necessary.
Muslim zeal for war and violence in the name of preserving purity of worship sounds more like some Old Testament stories of ancient Jew Prophets. I think this is where he got the inspiration and I don’t think he was against violence. The big difference between him and the Jews is that the Jews were aiming at a particular location Canaan, but Mohammad and Muslim aim at the whole world. Jews also usually did great violence in the name of God where great clear and universal abomination were being done like big time adultery. They didn’t just go around kill people for not submitting to God.
An other big difference is that Israelites leaders who did not are not and were not held to be great example of conducts and sometimes they repented it. The Bible is organized in such a way that you through studying you can tell that something had gone wrong. But this is not so for Islam. The basic reason being that the Koran is basically a one man’s book.
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Sister_Amy
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So if God picked the prophets, why aren’t they good enough to do the job He picked them for? If their job is to speak the truth–part of which, I think, is telling us how to live, and showing us how to live–then why shouldn’t we listen to them?
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Sister_Amy
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I didn’t use it by accident. I actually replaced a different word, figuring “deen” to be more appropriate. But many many many Arabs really do think that they’re just better than non-Arabs. Usually the religious ones don’t think so, it’s more the casual observers of deen and the secular ones who share the attitude of superiority.Oh, I’m well aware. That’s fine. Why should anyone expect otherwise? Notice that I did not say one thing about what Muhammad may have thought about what he was doing (I don’t think there’s any reason to doubt that he at some point probably became convinced that he really received revelations from God; didn’t Khadija tell him he did?). So it’s not really a problem for me that it contradicts what the Islamic sources say, though I can certainly understand why that’s a problem for you!
Hahaha. Ouch. Well…you said it, not me! The Arabs I know don’t think like that.
It’s interesting that you should use “deen”, by the way…kinda proves Aflaq’s/my point, though I’m sure you won’t agree. Peace.
When I said your theory conflicted with prophetic biography, I was referring not so much to the revelation of Qur’an, but really the fact that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh was persecuted in Makkah–that is to say, by his own people, his own FAMILY–for over a decade, despite their offering to make him their king.
Really, if he just wanted to unite the Arabs, then why not do it according to the religion of Makkah, the idolatry? Especially since that’s what his city was known for in its time, and why it was distinguished among the Arabs. Why would he try to come up with a religion that the Arabs hated, since it basically took away all their idols? Really, if Muhammad (pbuh) had wanted leadership, he could have had it–it was his for the taking, really, if he’d given up Islam. Islam, in fact, would be the least likely choice to bring him any kind of success except for the fact that it is actually from God.
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Sister_Amy
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The Qur’an doesn’t say the name of the child to be sacrificed but contextually leads one to draw such a conclusion.
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