My understanding of Mohammad

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Sister_Amy said:
Actually, I already drew the parallel. That was the easy part. I want to discuss it and expand on the idea with someone who can honestly criticize the idea instead of just insulting me and my faith.
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How have you been insulted? How has your faith been insulted.

In a country under an Islamic legal system, what would happen to people accused of insulting the religion? What would happen if they were guilty?
 
LtTony said:
No, they are not similar. And it illustrates the problem of mixing politics and religion: Mohammad the politician is beyound reproach because of Mohammad the religious leader.
Not a good combo, imo.
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What do you think of Moses, then? Bad combo?
This is an incomplete thought, and possibly an incomplete sentence. Are you implying I have insulted Mohammad? Have Ceative and obscene" insults been used earlier in the thread?
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You’re right, it was an incomplete sentence because the word “and” should have been a “then.”
Speaking of “creative” insults… "because not everyone is capable of understanding them. In fact, I think most aren’t… (not with someone too immature to think about it.) "

Oh, the hypocrisy.
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Do you think that most of the posters here have any clue who Ashraf bin Kaab even is? Or Anwar al-Awlaki? I don’t think so.
We don’t know that. Many people could have been killed for crossing Mohammad in some way or another. We could just as easily say that the murders weren’t recorded. So let’s not speculate. We know this: he killed some people, spared others.

But it begs the original question (which you haven’t directly answered): is it true that people who insult Mohammad are to be executed?

I don’t care about Ashraf b Kaab or the woman mentioned earlier. I’m asking the question above.
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If you don’t care, then don’t bother writing replies. Many people who insulted Muhammad weren’t executed. Fact. They insulted him, spat on his face, had their sons divorce his daughters, plotted to kill him. And they weren’t executed.
What do you think of al-A?
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Do you think if you keep asking, I’ll answer?

I think he’s a tragic case. He’s a very knowledgeable man who provided Muslims with some excellent resources and spoke out against terrorism for years, who unfortunately has been radicalized (many American Muslim scholars have spoken against him on this count) and now is promoting terrorism which is very serious.
 
Sister_Amy said:
I have been waiting for MONTHS, literally for months, for someone to bring this up.

I have a modern comparison: Anwar al-Awlaki. Here’s a guy that the US government is targetting for assassination. He’s an American citizen who was imprisoned in Yemen (not sure why) and when he got out, he’s been there in Yemen inciting people to violence and terrorism against the US government.

So what do YOU think, is it legal for the US to assassinate him? Should they try?
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Jesus and the Gospel do not condone the killing of a fellow human being. Mohammad did, the Quran and hadith do.
 
What a world we’d live in if every time someone said something against Muhammad, they’d be imprisoned or put to death.

So, Amy, I take it you stand behind the killing of someone who decides to leave Islam?

This is a real problem for our day. There are so many Islamic apologists trying to wipe out the brutal history of M and his followers that many innocent westerners buy into the myth of Islam as a peaceful religion. Then, they convert. After they convert, if they start reading the ahadith, there’ll be some massive cognitive dissonance… Luckily and hopefully for them, they’ll live in a western country where leaving Islam is no big deal. If they lived under Sharia, it would be a big deal.
 
Sister_Amy said:
I have been waiting for MONTHS, literally for months, for someone to bring this up.

I have a modern comparison: Anwar al-Awlaki. Here’s a guy that the US government is targetting for assassination. He’s an American citizen who was imprisoned in Yemen (not sure why) and when he got out, he’s been there in Yemen inciting people to violence and terrorism against the US government.

So what do YOU think, is it legal for the US to assassinate him? Should they try?
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dzheremi said:
Exactly how apt is that comparison, though? Is al-Awlaki taunting and insulting America from his perch in Yemen, or is plotting to attack it and kill people in it/from it? If America had the thin skin of Muhammad and his followers, vast parts of the world (cough most of Europe and the Middle East cough) would be obliterated without so much as a second thought.
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Sister_Amy said:
What do you think of Moses, then? Bad combo?
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Your reply reflects our fundamental differences on more than one level.

Level 1 – Mohammad is no Moses.
I know you think so, and I respect that. Where Islam loses the respect is where muslims start killing others for leaving the faith, homosexuality and insulting Mohammad.
Self defense is entirely acceptable. And I appreciate there are gray areas.
Self defense applies primarily to Mohammad himself. I have little or no respect for muslim rulers who invoke these capital punishments today. From what I hear from muslims, these rulers are not applying islamic principles correctly.
This includes everything from al-A’s violent jihad against the West to cartoons of Mohammad.

Level 2 – That was then, this is now.
If someone said today they had the moral authority of Moses to unilaterally impose his/her will on me I would surrender or resist, depending on the circumstances. Probably resist.
The Caananites etc. likely felt the same way, and I don’t blame them. People back then were rampaging and conquering others lands all the time. Those behaviours are not appropriate in a modern setting (high tech communications, weaponry, etc).
Bottom line – Moses didn’t say the actions and circumstances from back then apply today. Please show us where he did.

So your Moses connection falls flat.

Level 3 – Beg your pardon, but your tendency to misapply Abrahamic religion principles to fit your Mohammadan world view is down right frightening.
Do you think if you keep asking, I’ll answer?
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That is the purpose of asking, yes.
Side benefits are that it also keeps us on track (at least from my perspective) and illustrates how someone may be intentionally ducking difficult questions.

Speaking of unanswered questions… is it true that people who insult Mohammad are to be killed?
There’s some others that have slid by that I’ll get back to later.
I think he’s a tragic case. He’s a very knowledgeable man who provided Muslims with some excellent resources and spoke out against terrorism for years, who unfortunately has been radicalized (many American Muslim scholars have spoken against him on this count) and now is promoting terrorism which is very serious.
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Thanks to muslims who oppose him. Have any links to where al-A spoke against violent jihad?
 
muhammad had people killed, this is a known fact.
Did Jesus have anyone killed…no, in fact he died for us…
Just goes to show who are the more intelligent people for following a real God 😉
 
LtTony said:
…
Self defense is entirely acceptable. And I appreciate there are gray areas.
…
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Be careful. I see you need a copy of the Islam-to-English Dictionary since Muslims use the same vocabulary that has different meanings. Other words we are awaiting clarification include:“Peace”
“Justice”
“Messiah”
“Prophet”
“Jihad”
“Compulsion”, as in “no compulsion in religion”
“Friends”
“Allies”
“Abrogation”

etc.
In the case of “self-defense” and “defensive war”, you have to realize that the normal state of affairs to Islam is that all lands are to be under Allah’s rule; any other state is not normal. Therefore, anyone or anything standing in the way of this goal is waging aggressive war. And that’s why Islam, by definition, wages only defensive wars. 😉
 
lampstand said:
It has been said by some writers that Mohammad may have been an apostate Christian; he may have belonged to the Nestorian sect or something on that order. Just to play the ‘what if’ game with history, how much would be different if someone had managed to convert him to the Catholic faith? 😦
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Well, in the Qur’an, there is a verse which basically says that Christians worship Mary as a Second Person of the Trinity. Now, that was clearly not the mainstream view held by the Catholic Church at the time (or ever, for that matter), so Muhammad was most certainly influenced by heretical Christian sects of the place and time. Not too sure about Muhammad being an actual member of a heretical sect, though.
 
Amir_the_Masihi said:
Well, in the Qur’an, there is a verse which basically says that Christians worship Mary as a Second Person of the Trinity. Now, that was clearly not the mainstream view held by the Catholic Church at the time (or ever, for that matter), so Muhammad was most certainly influenced by heretical Christian sects of the place and time.
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I always am amused by this apparent misunderstanding by the Quran. For centuries we’ve always asked Saints to Pray for Us. Mother Mary is no exception never “Have Mercy On us” If only Muslims knew the fact.

MJ
 
Amir_the_Masihi said:
Well, in the Qur’an, there is a verse which basically says that Christians worship Mary as a Second Person of the Trinity. Now, that was clearly not the mainstream view held by the Catholic Church at the time (or ever, for that matter), so Muhammad was most certainly influenced by heretical Christian sects of the place and time. Not too sure about Muhammad being an actual member of a heretical sect, though.
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their is no verses in quran says that Christians worship Mary as a Second Person of the Trinity
the verse i know just asking jesus whether he told to his people to worship himself or his mother beside God ( the father ) , no metion for trinity in this verse .
 
We’ve been over and over that verse. Muslims say it doesn’t say “Trinity”, which is true but irrelevant, since it remains the fact that no orthodox Christian sect has ever worshiped Mary as the verse claims that we do. Whether or not the verse says “as a Person of the Trinity” or not really doesn’t matter. In fact, we should not be surprised that it does not; if it did, that would imply that Muhammad had some sort of knowledge of the persons of the Trinity or the proper exposition of the Trinity, which he didn’t. He thought they were three Gods, so Muslims today think they’re three Gods.

“Trinity” or not, the Qur’an is still completely wrong.
 
dzheremi said:
We’ve been over and over that verse. Muslims say it doesn’t say “Trinity”, which is true but irrelevant, since it remains the fact that no orthodox Christian sect has ever worshiped Mary as the verse claims that we do. Whether or not the verse says “as a Person of the Trinity” or not really doesn’t matter. In fact, we should not be surprised that it does not; if it did, that would imply that Muhammad had some sort of knowledge of the persons of the Trinity or the proper exposition of the Trinity, which he didn’t. He thought they were three Gods, so Muslims today think they’re three Gods.

“Trinity” or not, the Qur’an is still completely wrong.
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One of the Muslims I know asked me once “You guys worship Mary don’t you?” I must admit he’s not a strong Muslim (aka go to Mosque every Friday) as such. Although there was a paper article by a highly educated daughter of a prominent (probably the most famous) Muslim politician in Malaysia. This lady spoke out against the defacement and attack of a Lutheran Church by Muslim thugs due to disagreement of Catholic Magazine using the name Allah for God. She said “after all, Christians believe in one God”.

MJ
 
dzheremi said:
We’ve been over and over that verse. Muslims say it doesn’t say “Trinity”, which is true but irrelevant, since it remains the fact that no orthodox Christian sect has ever worshiped Mary as the verse claims that we do.
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but it remains another fact that quran didn’t say that the sect which worshiped mary is a mainstream one
and i still can’t realize what is the error in quranic verses
christains worshipped mary are exist , no mattar if it was manistream sect or not , no mattar if it was heretical according to you or not , what mattar is that they existed and verse of quran talking about them

remnantofgod.org/godmary.htm
 
elwill said:
but it remains another fact that quran didn’t say that the sect which worshiped mary is a mainstream one
and i still can’t realize what is the error in quranic verses
christains worshipped mary are exist , no mattar if it was manistream sect or not , no mattar if it was heretical according to you or not , what mattar is that they existed and verse of quran talking about them

remnantofgod.org/godmary.htm
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It is possible Mohammad was talking about the Collyridians – 4th century Arabian sect, but were they still around by the time Mohammad wrote the Quran?
 
elwill said:
but it remains another fact that quran didn’t say that the sect which worshiped mary is a mainstream one
and i still can’t realize what is the error in quranic verses
christains worshipped mary are exist , no mattar if it was manistream sect or not , no mattar if it was heretical according to you or not , what mattar is that they existed and verse of quran talking about them

remnantofgod.org/godmary.htm
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Elwill, your attempt to try to tell us what we believe on the subject of the Pope whether or not he worships Mary will be falling on deaf ears. If we tell you that we don’t worship Mary, it should be left at that. No need to post an anti Catholic web site at Catholics. It will not be taken into any legitimate reading material on these forums I’m sure.
 
dolphinlove said:
muhammad had people killed, this is a known fact.
Did Jesus have anyone killed…no, in fact he died for us…
Just goes to show who are the more intelligent people for following a real God 😉
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One day, when Moses had grown up, he went out to his people and looked on their burdens; and he saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his people. He looked this way and that, and seeing no one he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.
Exodus 2:11-12

‘‘I tell you, that to every one who has will more be given; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.’’
Jesus says in Luke 19:26-27

God commands Moses to kill all through-out The OT. Muhammad claimed the same thing. 😃
 
Bwtby said:
One day, when Moses had grown up, he went out to his people and looked on their burdens; and he saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his people. He looked this way and that, and seeing no one he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.
Exodus 2:11-12

‘‘I tell you, that to every one who has will more be given; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.’’
Jesus says in Luke 19:26-27

God commands Moses to kill all through-out The OT. Muhammad claimed the same thing. 😃
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Jesus was speaking in a parable. He wasn’t giving anyone permission to kill.It’s a parable only.
 
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