My viewpoint on Conservative versus Liberal Catholic: The faithful v the fake

[CrossBro]

I agree that political figures, “practicing” Catholicism on the one hand while undermining the church’s teaching on the other should be (have been) brought to book. E.g., JFK, Pelosi etc.
But this is a separate issue and not to be confused with the broader strokes you painted.

Most Catholics are “fake” in that very few of us live up to our baptism (me included) even when we try our best.

I’ve got trouble counting my own sins, never mind someone else’s!

And wherever there are humans involved in the church then hypocrisy and “fake” Catholicism will exist.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

I think we should forget about who is “fake” and just focus on teaching, preaching and living the Truth - firstly in our own lives.

Re-read my OP.

I stated that I was not speaking about people who honestly struggle with teachings, I wrote that the “fake Catholics” are those with the attitude that the Church needs to grow up.

You got sins ? Welcome to the club, but I believe in what the Church teaches and I think that this Church is worth defending.

 

[Joe_5859]

Liberals are God’s great gift to the post Vatican II church. They are the ones who wish to see the dictates of Vatican II carried out as the Council intended… It’s not nice to think of booting them out just because you think they are trying to change everything. How can you entertain the idea of dumping a fellow Christian from Christ’s flock when Christ himself told the parable of the Good Shepherd of a 100 sheep who left his flock to go and search for one lost sheep?

Perhaps you don’t see glaring problems growing on the horizon but most liberals do. For every convert coming into the Church today, three Catholics are leaving. And priests to serve the parishes and administer the sacraments are getting scarce a hen’s teeth. The story posted today on the internet is a good example of what liberals are about:

ncronline.org/node/62021

Check it out and see how serious things are in the Church.

If you don’t think conservatives see the problems in the Church, you must not know any conservatives.

I would say the Vatican II documents are the great gift to the post-Vatican II Church. I know plenty of both liberals and conservatives who think they know the proper interpretation of the documents, but really don’t. I don’t think that liberals are somehow in a unique position to interpret the documents correctly.

 

[Moonbug]

If you don’t think conservatives see the problems in the Church, you must not know any conservatives.

I would say the Vatican II documents are the great gift to the post-Vatican II Church. I know plenty of both liberals and conservatives who think they know the proper interpretation of the documents, but really don’t. I don’t think that liberals are somehow in a unique position to interpret the documents correctly.

As a liberal I don’t think I understand the documents of Vatican II better than any conservative does, but I think the vote taken on each document speaks for it self. All the documents passed by a general margin of from 1,800 to 2,100 bishops voting for passage of each document to 300 to 400 bishops voting against their passage. You can easily check out the specific number of votes for each document by referring to Fr. W. O’Malley’s book, “What Happened at Vatican II?” Collegiality, the use of the vernacular in the Mass instead of Latin, the movement of the Church towards a closer relationship with other faiths were a great achievement.

Pope Paul VI, alarmed at the trend the Council had taken in the first session under Pope John XXIII, decided to remove four subjects from the Council’s agenda for discussion. These were: priestly celibacy, birth control, reform of the Curia, and the mechanism to implement collegiality at the Church’s center.

Aware of the serious problem priestly celibacy was having in the Latin Church, Cardinal Maximos IV representing the Eastern Catholic churches agreed with the Pope that open discussion at the Council would create scandal rather than anything useful, asked the Pope to create a special commission to study the issue. Addressing Pope Paul VI in the Council he said: “Most Holy Father, this problem exists and is becoming daily more difficult. It cries out for a solution. . . .Your Holiness knows well that repressed truths turn poisonous.” Celibacy is a beautiful thing, he said. but it should not be imposed as an indispensable condition of ordination. (Paul VI never created a commission to study priestly celibacy.)

Pope Francis is the only pope since Vatican II to make any substantive changes in the Curia. His intentions in this area look promising. The question of “Priestly celibacy” to this day is still a taboo to even discuss by anyone in the religious for fear of being shown the door.

A commission to study birth control was set up under Pope John XXIII. It was composed of 56 members representing bishops, theologians, scientist, medical doctors and lay couples… They submitted their report to Pope Paul VI which supported a Christian standard of birth control. The vote was 52 for relaxing the band on birth control to 4 who voted against it. Paul VI refused to accept it, sent the commission back into discussion and raised the members of the commission from 54 to 76. They resubmitted their report some months later with the commission voting for relaxation of birth control rules by a large margin. Pope Paul refused to let it be publisher and ordered it buried in the Vatican archives, but a copy was sneaked out and eventually published.

Disregarding the commission’s report, Pope Paul VI issued and encyclical confirming the Church’s total band on birth control. It was roundly renounced by Catholics all over the world. He was so mortified by its lack of acceptance that he never wrote another encyclical. Today in America 98% of Catholic women have at one time or another practiced birth control and do not consider it a sin.

I think these facts speak for themselves. Statistics from Cora at Georgetown University’s statistical department show that for an American Catholic population of 78 million, we have only a priest population of 39,600 priests. There are 3,554 parishes in our country today that have no resident priests. In 6 to 8 years half of the priest in ministry today will be retired.

Liberals see this and are worried, but all I seem to get from conservatives is “Hold the fort,” everything is just perfect, kick out those bishops who dare suggest, married or women priests, bring back the Latin Mass." That’s all I ever hear from them

 

[CrossBro]

I don’t see a shortage of priests, I see a surplus of fake catholics.

The Church needs to work on the quality of its members not the quantity.

People do not join Catholic Church to be protestants. The Catholic Church will grow when it holds to its identity, not when it emulates liberalism.

 

[BillP]

Maybe you forgot the part in my OP where I stated that the Church should require it’s members to basically sign off on the beliefs and have a contract with the Church ?

You do realize that happens every Sunday at every Mass right? Every Catholic, publicly professes his (or her) belief in the tenets of the Church. Right there in front of God and everybody!

I believe in one God, the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial
with the Father;
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was **incarnate **
of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

  For our sake he was crucified 
  under Pontius Pilate,
      he suffered death and was buried, 
      and rose again on the third day 
      in accordance with the Scriptures. 
  He ascended into heaven 
      and is seated at the right hand of the Father. 
  He will come again in glory 
      to judge the living and the dead 
      and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son
is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic,
and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection
of the dead and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

I wonder if you’re aware of the irony inherent in accusing others of a lack of integrity for “picking and choosing” when you yourself are attempting to promote false ideas of who is and isn’t Catholic?

 

[Moonbug]

You do realize that happens every Sunday at every Mass right? Every Catholic, publicly professes his (or her) belief in the tenets of the Church. Right there in front of God and everybody!

I wonder if you’re aware of the irony inherent in accusing others of a lack of integrity for “picking and choosing” when you yourself are attempting to promote false ideas of who is and isn’t Catholic?

WELL DONE, Bill !!!

 

[Joe_5859]

As a liberal I don’t think I understand the documents of Vatican II better than any conservative does, but I think the vote taken on each document speaks for it self. All the documents passed by a general margin of from 1,800 to 2,100 bishops voting for passage of each document to 300 to 400 bishops voting against their passage. You can easily check out the specific number of votes for each document by referring to Fr. W. O’Malley’s book, “What Happened at Vatican II?” Collegiality, the use of the vernacular in the Mass instead of Latin, the movement of the Church towards a closer relationship with other faiths were a great achievement.

Pope Paul VI, alarmed at the trend the Council had taken in the first session under Pope John XXIII, decided to remove four subjects from the Council’s agenda for discussion. These were: priestly celibacy, birth control, reform of the Curia, and the mechanism to implement collegiality at the Church’s center.

Aware of the serious problem priestly celibacy was having in the Latin Church, Cardinal Maximos IV representing the Eastern Catholic churches agreed with the Pope that open discussion at the Council would create scandal rather than anything useful, asked the Pope to create a special commission to study the issue. Addressing Pope Paul VI in the Council he said: “Most Holy Father, this problem exists and is becoming daily more difficult. It cries out for a solution. . . .Your Holiness knows well that repressed truths turn poisonous.” Celibacy is a beautiful thing, he said. but it should not be imposed as an indispensable condition of ordination. (Paul VI never created a commission to study priestly celibacy.)

Pope Francis is the only pope since Vatican II to make any substantive changes in the Curia. His intentions in this area look promising. The question of “Priestly celibacy” to this day is still a taboo to even discuss by anyone in the religious for fear of being shown the door.

A commission to study birth control was set up under Pope John XXIII. It was composed of 56 members representing bishops, theologians, scientist, medical doctors and lay couples… They submitted their report to Pope Paul VI which supported a Christian standard of birth control. The vote was 52 for relaxing the band on birth control to 4 who voted against it. Paul VI refused to accept it, sent the commission back into discussion and raised the members of the commission from 54 to 76. They resubmitted their report some months later with the commission voting for relaxation of birth control rules by a large margin. Pope Paul refused to let it be publisher and ordered it buried in the Vatican archives, but a copy was sneaked out and eventually published.

Disregarding the commission’s report, Pope Paul VI issued and encyclical confirming the Church’s total band on birth control. It was roundly renounced by Catholics all over the world. He was so mortified by its lack of acceptance that he never wrote another encyclical. Today in America 98% of Catholic women have at one time or another practiced birth control and do not consider it a sin.

I think these facts speak for themselves. Statistics from Cora at Georgetown University’s statistical department show that for an American Catholic population of 78 million, we have only a priest population of 39,600 priests. There are 3,554 parishes in our country today that have no resident priests. In 6 to 8 years half of the priest in ministry today will be retired.

Liberals see this and are worried, but all I seem to get from conservatives is “Hold the fort,” everything is just perfect, kick out those bishops who dare suggest, married or women priests, bring back the Latin Mass." That’s all I ever hear from them

Again, I think you must not know many conservatives. Almost my entire circle of friends from undergrad, grad school, and at present are conservative Catholics. I guarantee you that I have never heard any of them say, “Everything is just perfect.”

That “98%” figure was disproven pretty much as soon as it was mistakenly uttered.

I’m not sure why it matters what percentage of the commission advised Paul VI to change the teaching on birth control. Since he was the pope, what matters is what he pronounced. And I understand why he never wrote another encyclical. If I received that kind of blowback, I wouldn’t either.

I’m also not sure what significance you attach to the number breakdown on the voting on the conciliar documents. The percentage of yays and nays isn’t as important as the final product.

I guess I don’t understand what point you were getting at with all of the above. I guess I disagree that these facts speak for themselves.

 

[triumphguy]

I don’t see a shortage of priests, I see a surplus of fake catholics.

The Church needs to work on the quality of its members not the quantity.

People do not join Catholic Church to be protestants. The Catholic Church will grow when it holds to its identity, not when it emulates liberalism.

So, are you talking about ordinary Catholics who struggle with church teaching, or the political leaders who pretend to be Catholic?

'cos it’s very unclear once again.

 

[Moonbug]

Again, I think you must not know many conservatives. Almost my entire circle of friends from undergrad, grad school, and at present are conservative Catholics. I guarantee you that I have never heard any of them say, “Everything is just perfect.”

That “98%” figure was disproven pretty much as soon as it was mistakenly uttered.

I’m not sure why it matters what percentage of the commission advised Paul VI to change the teaching on birth control. Since he was the pope, what matters is what he pronounced. And I understand why he never wrote another encyclical. If I received that kind of blowback, I wouldn’t either.

I’m also not sure what significance you attach to the number breakdown on the voting on the conciliar documents. The percentage of yays and nays isn’t as important as the final product.

I guess I don’t understand what point you were getting at with all of the above. I guess I disagree that these facts speak for themselves.

On the contrary, sir! It is you who doesn’t have his facts straight. Your “Catholic Vote. Org” group is a very conservative political action committee working out of Chicago whose sole aim is to get conservative Catholics elected to office. Since 1995 the group has changed its name four times. The statistic this group has tried to lay at the feet of the Obama Administration is completely bogus.

Reuters News Service carried an article on this very subject in the Boston Globe Newspaper on April 13, 2011. The story reported that 98 percent of Catholic women have used contraceptive methods banned by the Catholic Church. The story adds, “The new report from the Guttmacher Institute shows that only 2 percent of Catholic women, EVEN THOSE WHO REGULARLY ATTEND CHURCH, rely on natural family planning. The latest data shows practices of Catholic women are in line with women of other religious affiliations and adult American women in general.”

The Boston Globe story goes on to add, “The findings nearly match previous NSFG (National Survey of Family Growth) data from 2002, which showed that 97 percent of Catholic women were using contraceptives , and is consistent with a trend tracked over the last decade.”

As for the reliability of the Guttmacher Institute, it is considered one of the best statistical data gathering organizations in the world, Almost all of the statistical research done for the United Nations is done by the Guttmacher Institute. The United Nations Assembly has cited them in the past for their reliable work. The “Catholic Vote.org” story is an attempt to twist the facts. Get the Boston Globe story and read it for yourself.

You can also go to C.A.R.A. (Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate) at Georgetown University. Their statistical data will verify the Boston Globe statistics.

 

[CrossBro]

You do realize that happens every Sunday at every Mass right? Every Catholic, publicly professes his (or her) belief in the tenets of the Church. Right there in front of God and everybody!

I wonder if you’re aware of the irony inherent in accusing others of a lack of integrity for “picking and choosing” when you yourself are attempting to promote false ideas of who is and isn’t Catholic?

The governor of my state (Nevada) says those words every Sunday too Bill, he even attends daily mass,

His name is Brian Sandoval. Go to his website where he declares publically he iss pro-choice abortion.

The Church states he is automatically excommunicated no paperwork necessary.

Now how am I picking and choosing Bill when the Church has already said he is toast ?

 

[BillP]

The governor of my state (Nevada) says those words every Sunday too Bill, he even attends daily mass,

His name is Brian Sandoval. Go to his website where he declares publically he iss pro-choice abortion.

The Church states he is automatically excommunicated no paperwork necessary.

Now how am I picking and choosing Bill when the Church has already said he is toast ?

You have a remarkably poor grasp of Catholic teaching.

The Church actually teaches:

Canon 1398 of the 1983 revision of the Code of Canon Law reads: “A person who actually procures an abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

So your Governor is (unless he has actually procured an abortion) is not subject to excommunication.

By the way, your confirmation of this is that he is attending daily Mass! The Bishops and Clergy know everything about your Governor that you know (vis-a-vis his position on abortion) and they obviously don’t think he has been excommunicated.

This is what I’m talking about. You’re here promoting what amounts to heresy (that YOU know more than your Bishop about who is excommunicated), while criticizing others for what you believe is not adhering to Catholic teaching.

Ironical, No?

 

[CrossBro]

You have a remarkably poor grasp of Catholic teaching.

The Church actually teaches:

Canon 1398 of the 1983 revision of the Code of Canon Law reads: “A person who actually procures an abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

So your Governor is (unless he has actually procured an abortion) is not subject to excommunication.

By the way, your confirmation of this is that he is attending daily Mass! The Bishops and Clergy know everything about your Governor that you know (vis-a-vis his position on abortion) and they obviously don’t think he has been excommunicated.

This is what I’m talking about. You’re here promoting what amounts to heresy (that YOU know more than your Bishop about who is excommunicated), while criticizing others for what you believe is not adhering to Catholic teaching.

Ironical, No?

“The penalty of excommunication for abortion extends to the mother, all medical personnel, anyone who offers the mother moral or financial support to abort, as well as those who publicly campaign for legalized abortion. Incidentally, no formal notification of such excommunication is necessary, as it takes effect as soon as the action is performed.” p. 77 The Catholic Answer Book vol 1, Rev. Peter M.J. Stravinskas PH.D S.T.D.

 

[BillP]

“The penalty of excommunication for abortion extends to the mother, all medical personnel, anyone who offers the mother moral or financial support to abort, as well as those who publicly campaign for legalized abortion. Incidentally, no formal notification of such excommunication is necessary, as it takes effect as soon as the action is performed.” p. 77 The Catholic Answer Book vol 1, Rev. Peter M.J. Stravinskas PH.D S.T.D.

So you’ve found some guy that agrees with you and you believe him while your Bishop and his Clergy obviously don’t (since they let him attend daily Mass) and WE’RE the ones who are “fake Catholics”…
Got it.

By the way, that book you cited isn’t an official teaching of the Church (it doesn’t even have a nihil obstat OR an imprimatur). So once again, you’re here promoting something the Church clearly doesn’t actually teach, presenting it as if they did, and accusing the people who follow the actual teaching as “Fake Catholics”

See what I mean?

 

[CrossBro]

So you’ve found some guy that agrees with you and you believe him while your Bishop and his Clergy obviously don’t (since they let him attend daily Mass) and WE’RE the ones who are “fake Catholics”…
Got it.

By the way, that book you cited isn’t an official teaching of the Church (it doesn’t even have a nihil obstat OR an imprimatur). So once again, you’re here promoting something the Church clearly doesn’t actually teach, presenting it as if they did, and accusing the people who follow the actual teaching as “Fake Catholics”

See what I mean?

I have the choice of believing you over a Catholic Priest who was the editor of a national Catholic magazine and probably has over 30 books on Catholicism listed on Amazon and has a Phd.

Guess who I am going to believe Bill ?

You can find the following article on Catholic Planet entitled "Abortion and Excommunication:

Those Catholics who promote abortion are automatically excommunicated for two reasons. First, they have fallen into the sin of heresy by believing that abortion is not always gravely immoral (canons 751 and 1364). Second, these Catholics are providing substantial assistance for women to obtain abortions by influencing public policy to make abortions legal, and to keep abortions legal, and to broaden access to abortion. Those who provide such substantial assistance commit a mortal sin and incur a sentence of automatic excommunication (canon 1398).

 

[CrossBro]

From Catholic Life League:

Canon Law Number 1398 states, quite simply, in Latin and English;

Qui abortum procurat, effectu secuto, in excommunicationem, latae sententiae, incurrat.
Those who successfully abort a living human fetus bring on themselves instant excommunication.

Abortum procurat means anyone who works to kill a human fetus in any manner at all. This may be the boyfriend or husband who drives the mother to the abortion mill, pays for the abortion in full or in part, or even advises that abortion may be an option in her case.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

From Catholic Life League:

Canon Law Number 1398 states, quite simply, in Latin and English;

Qui abortum procurat, effectu secuto, in excommunicationem, latae sententiae, incurrat.
Those who successfully abort a living human fetus bring on themselves instant excommunication.

Abortum procurat means anyone who works to kill a human fetus in any manner at all. This may be the boyfriend or husband who drives the mother to the abortion mill, pays for the abortion in full or in part, or even advises that abortion may be an option in her case.

I fail to see how this language applies to someone whose only involvement is to decline to pass specific laws that establish civil punishment for abortion. That is not the same thing as actvely promoting abortion. What’s wrong with a literal translation of “abortum procurat”? If the Magesterium had meant the broad interpretation you gave they would have used more appropriate language.

 

[CrossBro]

I fail to see how this language applies to someone whose only involvement is to decline to pass specific laws that establish civil punishment for abortion. That is not the same thing as actvely promoting abortion. What’s wrong with a literal translation of “abortum procurat”? If the Magesterium had meant the broad interpretation you gave they would have used more appropriate language.

**Congregation for the Doctorine of Faith:

Declaration on Abortion

National Congress of Catholic Bishops: “No Catholic can responsibly take ‘a pro-choice’ stand when the ‘choice’ in question involves the taking of innocent human life”. **

 

[BillP]

I have the choice of believing you over a Catholic Priest who was the editor of a national Catholic magazine and probably has over 30 books on Catholicism listed on Amazon and has a Phd.

Guess who I am going to believe Bill ?

You can find the following article on Catholic Planet entitled "Abortion and Excommunication:

NO, I quoted actual Canon Law, you’re the one relying on a non-official source here, Bud.

If you’re right, and these politicians have in fact been excommunicated, why do the Bishops permit them to attend Mass?

How is it that you know more than the Bishops? Or are they “Fake Catholics” too?

Beyond the teaching authority of the Bishops, what OTHER parts of Catholicism are you “picking and choosing”?

And why aren’t YOU a “Fake Catholic” for doing so?

 

[BillP]

From Catholic Life League:

Your copied and pasted explication of “abortion procurat” is not supported by the teachings of the Church. The Catholic Life League has no official standing or teaching authority within the Church. Their interpretation is their opinion only. And a not very well informed one.

 

[BillP]

**Congregation for the Doctorine of Faith:

Declaration on Abortion

National Congress of Catholic Bishops: “No Catholic can responsibly take ‘a pro-choice’ stand when the ‘choice’ in question involves the taking of innocent human life”. **

Which is a heck of a long way from being excommunicated latae sententiae isn’t it?