Seamless doesn’t mean equal.
Not true…You say you fear we are getting off topic, yet you seem to obfuscate the facts that are most central to the issue. You dismiss the question with a cavalier wave of the hand of whether 0% or 100% of American Catholic women have used birth control; in the past. What this means is that 98% of all the Catholic women in America have committed the mortal sin of practicing contraception, not only in their lives, but the lives of all Catholic women for the past forty years. That’s how far the statistics go back documenting this accepted practice among Catholic women. Now, is that true?
SENSUS FIDELIUM is the theological principle that what the great majority of Catholics believe or reject over time is, If this is in direct opposition to a teaching of the magisterium, then "Sensus Fidelium prevails. This doctrine embodies the promise of Christ to protect us from error with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Church hierarchy has taught what to believe, accept, and reject, but always with the corrective response by theologians and the faithful even from the very beginning. (Acts 15)
You are correct that seamless does not mean equal and that there is more than one issue.
The Guttmacher Institute states these Catholic women KNOWINGLY practiced birth control at one time or another in their productive lives. We really don’t know the number or how many husbands knew, but you have to assume that almost all of them knew.
Show me where the CCC says it is in and of itself a mortal sin without the 3 conditions usually associated with mortal sin…The Guttmacher Institute states these Catholic women KNOWINGLY practiced birth control at one time or another in their productive lives. We really don’t know the number or how many husbands knew, but you have to assume that almost all of them knew.
The point here is the Church says it’s a mortal sin and 98% of all American Catholic women believe it is no sin at all. They believe a pregnancy would cause a great hardship if it occurred in the family at a given time… Some families feel, after having a number of children, they are unable to clothe, feed and educate any more without harming the well being of the rest of the family as a whole. The Church is going to have to address this, because these women (and their families) suspect That if the Holy See got this dogma wrong, what other teachings might be wrong. Not Good!
**This is at the root of the situation. ** Just look around the pews…look around the parish social events…where couples bring their families…COUNT THE CHILDREN. It’s not rocket science.The Guttmacher Institute states these Catholic women KNOWINGLY practiced birth control at one time or another in their productive lives. We really don’t know the number or how many husbands knew, but you have to assume that almost all of them knew.
The point here is the Church says it’s a mortal sin and 98% of all American Catholic women believe it is no sin at all. They believe a pregnancy would cause a great hardship if it occurred in the family at a given time… Some families feel, after having a number of children, they are unable to clothe, feed and educate any more without harming the well being of the rest of the family as a whole. The Church is going to have to address this, because these women (and their families) suspect That if the Holy See got this dogma wrong, what other teachings might be wrong. Not Good!
It’s a “given” that the catechism is describing mortal sin. What you are bringing up, here, is he Church’s stated clarification of what makes it a mortal sin
So you can’t (and SHOULDN’T) say that 98% of women are in mortal sin.It’s a “given” that the catechism is describing mortal sin. What you are bringing up, here, is he Church’s stated clarification of what makes it a mortal sin
1.Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter.
2.It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (no one is considered ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are inborn as part of human knowledge, but these principles can be misunderstood in a particular context).
3.It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.
Now, there you go again, obfuscation!
And can you tell which ones are using NFP and which ones are using artificial contraception?That’s not the real problem. Count the people.
I don’t believe any of them are in mortal sin personally if they truly believe a pregnancy would harm them or their family. It’s the Church’s teaching reinforced with Pope Paul VI’s encyclical, “HUMANAE VITAE .” that states it is grave sin (mortal sin).
Just from my experience in working in women’s healthcare, I suspect that Moonbug has a valid point. I am no expert on the Pope’s paper referred to on here and haven’t read it, but I have discovered that a lot of women who have abortions really don’t think it’s a sin–or murder–or really much different than taking birth control pills, which in today’s society I think most of us realize that right or wrong, many protestants and other faiths besides Catholics–have no problem with at all! I’m not saying that I agree with this opinion on abortion, as I absolutely think it’s an abomination and can’t imagine a mother killing her own child. I’m only saying that in my experience, most women who have abortions–who would even consider doing such a thing—don’t look at it as the killing of a child. If they did, they probably wouldn’t do it either–as most of them aren’t serial killers or sociopaths. They just don’t have a correct understanding of what they are doing and why it is wrong. Often their own parents don’t think it is wrong to have an abortion and even if they belong to a church, that church may not preach that abortion is murder–much less using birth control!. That’s just a sad but true fact of modern life. So, in these cases,–which are probably the vast majority of women who are either having abortions or are on abortificant birth control–they probably are NOT in the state of mortal sin. They are in, what I call, the state of “clueless”!I don’t believe any of them are in mortal sin personally if they truly believe a pregnancy would harm them or their family. It’s the Church’s teaching reinforced with Pope Paul VI’s encyclical, “HUMANAE VITAE .” that states it is grave sin (mortal sin).
I am familiar with the Canadian Bishop’s negative response, almost to a man, against “Humanae Vitae.” They really threw a tessie when it was published. They are a thoughtful, sincere group, but the quality of bishops in Canada has fallen as it has in the United States in recent years. Choosing bishops because they agree with your personal philosophy of the Church is not the way to go. I believe that "holy communion document in your country was retracted under Benedict XVI when he became aware of it. Good for your priests that the retraction was never broadcasted publically.
Dear Lady, I didn’t say anything about abortion. I’m against abortion except in cases of incest or rape. This is a complicated subject I’d like to explore with you, but it’s late. I’m and old man and its time for me to go to bed now. Let’s pursue it further tomorrow. :tiphat:Just from my experience in working in women’s healthcare, I suspect that Moonbug has a valid point. I am no expert on the Pope’s paper referred to on here and haven’t read it, but I have discovered that a lot of women who have abortions really don’t think it’s a sin–or murder–or really much different than taking birth control pills, which in today’s society I think most of us realize that right or wrong, many protestants and other faiths besides Catholics–have no problem with at all! I’m not saying that I agree with this opinion on abortion, as I absolutely think it’s an abomination and can’t imagine a mother killing her own child. I’m only saying that in my experience, most women who have abortions–who would even consider doing such a thing—don’t look at it as the killing of a child. If they did, they probably wouldn’t do it either–as most of them aren’t serial killers or sociopaths. They just don’t have a correct understanding of what they are doing and why it is wrong. Often their own parents don’t think it is wrong to have an abortion and even if they belong to a church, that church may not preach that abortion is murder–much less using birth control!. That’s just a sad but true fact of modern life. So, in these cases,–which are probably the vast majority of women who are either having abortions or are on abortificant birth control–they probably are NOT in the state of mortal sin. They are in, what I call, the state of “clueless”!
Just meant as an example of a mortal sin–that may or may not be for everyone–since some people truly do seem to live almost in a vaccuum on many moral issues these days…
So, Rebecca Kiessling should have died? She was conceived by Rape. So was Juda Meyer. And so was Ryan Bomberger (founder of theradiancefoundation.org/ an anti abortion organization). All three of them were conceived by Rape and according to you, its okay if they would have been aborted.
Actually, I was referring to "Practicing Catholics or those who have had enough religious instruction to be aware of the difference. But what you say of the population as a whole is true. The priesthood is shrinking as well as the religious orders. In 1970 The American Church had 58,161 active priest. Today we have only 39,502, and most of these are past 60 years old. In 1970 we had 826 Catholic parishioners for every priest. Today, there are 1,653 parishioners for each priest. Understandably, each priest is carrying twice the work load he was in 1970.
Anyone who says they are against abortion and then has an acception isn’t against abortion but for it. As you have said a direct abortion is a SIN, a mortal sin that kills a human and a soul.
Unnamed theologians do not trump the teachings of the Church.Actually, I was referring to "Practicing Catholics or those who have had enough religious instruction to be aware of the difference. But what you say of the population as a whole is true. The priesthood is shrinking as well as the religious orders. In 1970 The American Church had 58,161 active priest. Today we have only 39,502, and most of these are past 60 years old. In 1970 we had 826 Catholic parishioners for every priest. Today, there are 1,653 parishioners for each priest. Understandably, each priest is carrying twice the work load he was in 1970.
In 1970 there were 163,081 sisters and brothers active in the U.S. Today, there are only 60,652.
The Catholic programs set up to insure children get their catechism seem to be woefully inadequate for the nation as a whole. It’s a problem.
But we must remember that it says in the Old Testament that when God made man, “He wrote the Ten Commandments on the fleshly tablets of men’s hearts.” We all have a conscience, which guides us between good and evil… However, is an abortion a mortal sin? Now, this is where the water gets murky. Some reputable theologians say “That all depends on when it takes place.” Is an abortion murder? Some theologians say it is and some say it isn’t. This is not an issue that has just popped up recent years, but has been disputed for the past three hundred years. The Church really needs to give this some study.
In 2009, a 9 year old Brazilian girl became pregnant after being raped by her stepfather. There was evidence he had repeatedly raped her since she was 6 years old. (Google the story) The doctors found on examination that she was 15 weeks pregnant and was carrying twins. Weighing only 80 pounds, the doctors determined that, due to her age, her undeveloped uterus could not carry one child, much less two. The doctors decided that , for the health of the girl, the pregnancy must be terminated. The archbishop refused to consider it, saying if it was carried out the mother and the doctor would be excommunicated. They preceded with the abortion and were excommunicated. The stepfather rapist was not excommunicated, however.
You are piecemealing a whole lot of stories together as though the sum total of your insinuations are equivalent to the clear Catholic moral teaching. Why is that?In 2009, a 9 year old Brazilian girl became pregnant after being raped by her stepfather. There was evidence he had repeatedly raped her since she was 6 years old. (Google the story) The doctors found on examination that she was 15 weeks pregnant and was carrying twins. Weighing only 80 pounds, the doctors determined that, due to her age, her undeveloped uterus could not carry one child, much less two. The doctors decided that , for the health of the girl, the pregnancy must be terminated. The archbishop refused to consider it, saying if it was carried out the mother and the doctor would be excommunicated. They preceded with the abortion and were excommunicated. The stepfather rapist was not excommunicated, however.
Then we had that debacle in Arizona where a nun trained in medical ethics and serving in that position for over 40 years in Catholic hospitals agreed with the doctors and staff at her hospital a woman with three small children should have her pregnancy terminated in order to save her life. The abortion was performed and the archbishop excommunicated the nun and all the doctors and staff involved.
EXODUS: 21, 22-24. A miscarriage from a hostile blow is not considered murder.
Saint Thomas Aquinas barred the baptism of any unborn fetus. Baptism could not take place until the actual birth of the child. He agreed with Aristotle who said are there three stages to the development of a fetus, Organic, Animal, and Human. There is no nervous system in the fetus until five or six weeks after conception. The first heart beat and the first electrical activity in the brain also occur about this same time.
Saint Irenaeus, who had studied under Saint Polycarp, the Bishop of Smyrna, who in turn had studied under the Apostle John, taught the soul, being pure spirit, had no physical qualities, but it did have a certain corporal character of the soul. He represents it as possessing the form of its body, as water contains the form of its containing vessel. He intimated the soul was not placed in the fetus until it had formed the shape of a human being. Once the soul took this human shape it kept it for eternity. Saint Irenaeus, along with Saint Augustine, were the first two proclaimed “Doctors of the Church.”
Pope John XXIII set up a Birth Control commission in 1962 in preparation for the Vatican II Council that would study the issue. The commission submitted its report to Pope Paul VI who have replaced John XXIII. The issue was withdrawn from debate by Paul VI who didn’t wanted it debated by all the bishops. The vote of the commission was 51 to 4 for lifting the Church’s birth control ban. The commission firmly stated that the decision to use birth control should be left up to couples. “The Catholic prohibition should simply be lifted.”
Pope Paul VI, not satisfied, ordered them to reconsider, but in order to stack the deck, he increased the size of the commission from 55 to 72. After completely reviewing the results, the expanded commission still voted to lift the prohibition on birth control by a vote of 66 to 6. The Pope buried the report and refused to let it be printed. But the final report was leaked and published by “The National Catholic Reporter” and other publications in 1966.
Pope Paul VI, going against his Birth Control Commission, issued HUMANAE VITAE in July of 1968. HUMANAE VITAE was roundly rejected by the Church. the reception was so bad that Pope Paul VI never wrote another encyclical.