My visit to Utah

[Murdock]

Dear Utah Rose

Your post #10 says that “right now they [Mormons] are neutral about abortion.” I am not sure whether you are referring to the Church or to the Mormon people, but neither one is “neutral” about abortion. With respect to abortion, the teachings of my Church are different than the teachings of the Catholic Church. I am sure that you believe, for reasons fully satisfactory to you, that the teachings of the Catholic Church with respect to abortion are better than LDS teachings. However, there is no way that the Mormon people or our Church can be described accurately as “neutral” with respect to abortion. I am concerned that some readers here might now have an incorrect impression of the beliefs of Mormons, and the teachings of our Church, with respect to abortion. I am going to adapt two posts that I made yesterday to address this.

LDS teaching with respect to abortion is summarized in the entry for "Abortion” in the small book “True to the Faith” available to be read online at www.lds.org and states as follows:

“In today’s society, abortion has become a common practice, defended by deceptive arguments. If you face questions about this matter, you can be secure in following the revealed will of the Lord. Latter-day prophets have denounced abortion, referring to the Lord’s declaration, ‘Thou shalt not … kill, nor do anything like unto it’ (D&C 59:6). Their counsel on the matter is clear: Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must not submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for an abortion. If you encourage an abortion in any way, you may be subject to Church discipline.
Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer.
When a child is conceived out of wedlock, the best option is for the mother and father of the child to marry and work toward establishing an eternal family relationship. If a successful marriage is unlikely, they should place the child for adoption, preferably through LDS Family Services (see Adoption, pages 7–8). “
True to the Faith at 4-5.
I have heard Catholic criticism that abortion in cases of rape or incest only adds another sin to the sin that has already occurred. Sometimes that sounds right to me, but the best that I can do is to trust the leaders of my Church.

Importantly, a Mormon’s participation in an abortion, even indirectly, can and does result in excommunication. It is certainly not accurate to say that the Church is neutral about abortion.

As to the Mormon people, the massive 2008 Pew Forum Religious Landscape survey asked adult Americans about their religion and, among other things, their views on a number of public issues including about whether abortion should be legal or not. Here is some of the response data:

Mormon responses were (a) 8% always legal, (b) 19% usually legal, (c) 61% usually illegal and (d) 9% always illegal.

Americans as a whole gave the following responses: (a) 18% always legal, (b) 33% usually legal, (c) 27% usually illegal and (d) 16% always illegal.

Catholics gave the following responses: (a) 16% always legal, (b) 32% usually legal, (c) 27% usually illegal and (d) 18% always illegal.

Totaling the two “illegal” categories, 70% of Mormons believe that abortion should usually or always be illegal. Among all religions, that was exceeded only by Jehovah’s witnesses (77%) who gave the following answers: (a) 5% always legal, (b) 11% usually legal, (c) 25% usually illegal and (d) 52% always illegal.

So, it is in no way accurate to say that Mormons as a group are ”neutral” about abortion.

Murdock

 

[PaulDupre]

Why can’t married men perform priestly functions? Why couldn’t an unpaid lay person perform the duties of a priest if the congregations were smaller?

Many of the Catholic rites do not require priests to be unmarried. Many people are only familiar with the Latin Rite, and while it is the largest Catholic rite, it is not the only one.

 

[Brother_in_Arms]

However, although they strive for family activities, there are some bumps. There is a lot of incest and child molestation in Utah. Polygamists thrive because Utah looks the other way.

As for BYU, I agree that they have an awesome code of behavior. But I can’t see why you see more in the Temple than in the Cathedral since Jesus is present in the Eucharist and no way to be seen in the Temple.

Please don’t be blinded by “false prophets” as Jesus warned. Remember, “by their fruits you shall know them” and Joseph Smith and Brigham Young with their many wives and distorted view of religion should answer your question.

Right now they are neutral about abortion and may even change their view on same sex marriage, and you know the Catholic Church will remain steady in their beliefs and never succumb to the modern views of the world.

If you have lived in the state for 30 years, my friend, you obviously haven’t been paying attention.

I’m not one to tear down another’s faith and beliefs and may God strike me dead if I ever do, but I also cannot sit idly by and not say something when others are feeding the masses with false concepts about the truths I hold to so dearly.

So while I am not attacking anything you have and love, may I shed more light on the points that are misrepresenting?

I am Mormon. Proud to say. proud to live it.

But, like any faith, there are bad eggs. And as we know so well, it’s them that are held before the world to judge them and their religion. (Muslim terrorists, splinter group “Mormon” polygamists, ahem Catholic priests…) Yes, you’re right about the familial abuse that happens and while it’s tough going to bring those who offend to justice, the LDS church does not simply look away. Utah was first settled by Mormons, but let’s not confuse state action with church doctrine, shall we? Few there are in this world that know of all the good the Mormon church does, because it does not seek to gain the notoriety that comes with showy displays of charity.

“Mormons don’t believe in Jesus”? Really? Kinda hard to dance around that one when the official name of the church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Yes, we have different ideas about who He is and His divine nature. And that’s where we will agree to disagree, but please don’t say we aren’t Christian simply because of these differences. The end and fundamental unifying belief that should unite ALL Christians is that we believe Christ is our Savior and it is ONLY through Him do we return back to the Father.

(Even if no one else would ever accept us as Christians, personally, I don’t really care. I am solid in my understanding and my love for the Savior and HE will have the last say. No one else is my judge and jury.)

As for BYU, yes, I attended all four years and graduated with a degree. My time there was great and I will always treasure the memories and friends I made, just as any college student should.

If you really do have questions about the Temple and its purposes feel free to ask. But ask someone active who actually attends the Temple, please? If not, it’s like asking a mechanic to look at your leaky roof…think you’ll get the best diagnosis that way?

“By their fruits shall ye know them” very true. Can’t (and won’t) argue with scripture. But again, we are led back to the ONE example, to the ONE argument that I find most often: multiple wives. To this I ask: Why was it ok to have many wives in biblical times? Did God have a purpose then? Would He have a purpose for it in our day? If so, would it not be best to discover truth than to just look for the negative based on a society’s changed views over the course of time?

Yes, that practice was ended by church leaders as it was begun. But can you not at least ask WHY to the people whom it affects and live it than to just go with what everyone else will nitpick at based on their own limited views? “So are My thoughts higher than your thoughts and My ways higher than your ways…” Isaiah.

All I’m saying, friend, is ASK. I’m done with people telling me what I believe.

And that goes with your final two comments regarding abortion and same sex marriage.

Abortion is only considered in our church in instances of rape, incest, or risk to the mother’s health in any way. All other circumstances we ask and encourage people to consider life they have created and take responsibility for your actions.

Same sex marriage: far as I know, that will never change. The church’s stance has been, is, and always will be NO. Marriage is only between a man and a woman. Feel free to ask your local LDS missionaries for a copy of The Family: A Proclamation to the World for further clarification.

And please don’t be so harsh about change within a church or faith. Don’t we ALL need to change in order to progress and become what God would have us become?

It’s like learning how to tac in a sailboat…the winds may come from many angles, and while direction may change, that is only for the good so you can navigate. The mast and sails (doctrine) are still true, but we need these variations in different times to withstand the storms of life. Learn and pray about change. I do when there is a change in leadership in my church. The messenger may be different, but the doctrine they teach from remains the same even if the see it from another angle and focus.

You say change, I say growth because it’s not the change you are implying and has added to people’s confusion about Mormons.

But I don’t know if I’m just throwing words out there right now, because I know in many people’s minds they just think I’m brain washed or deluded.

To that I say…I’m not from Utah.

 

[Brother_in_Arms]

“Clarity is more important than agreement.” - Dennis Prager

LOVE that quote, Paul :clapping:

 

[zaffiroborant]

If the Catholics followed up Mass with 1hr of group catechesis, it would solve alot of the problems I’ve read of on this forum. LDS seperates into groups of adults, teens, and children so discussion is age relevant and people build community with their peers.
PaulDupre;7009326:

Agreed.

But even pre-Vatican II, when it appears most feel catechism was better, Sunday was not a day for catechesis, it has always been a day of worship and a celebration of the Eucharist. And the Mass itself is a catechism if one follows and reflects on it in all it’s aspects.

 

[Catholic20064]

Many of the Catholic rites do not require priests to be unmarried. Many people are only familiar with the Latin Rite, and while it is the largest Catholic rite, it is not the only one.

I look forward to the day when married men are allowed to become priests within the Latin Rite. I believe many faithful married men would make wonderful priests. While there is a place for a professional priesthood, I do think that unpaid men could be called to the priesthood in order to make the mass and other sacraments more accessible in areas where there are shortages of priests. It would strengthen the church to increase the availability of the sacraments.

 

[JRKH]

Fine. Let the lay married men become unpaid priests and give up their lay status. I think we would be amazed at what would happen.

So basically what you are saying is that you would support a “married priesthood”.
If the Church should choose to change this discipline it would be fine with me. Though I don’t know how the “unpaid” part would work out…

Peace
James

 

[Catholic20064]

So basically what you are saying is that you would support a “married priesthood”.
If the Church should choose to change this discipline it would be fine with me. Though I don’t know how the “unpaid” part would work out…

Peace
James

It would work fine if you had married men whose children had already grown up. There are a lot of over 55s who could use something more to do in their lives. I probably wouldn’t allow married priests who had children still in the nest.

 

[Stephen168]

Right now they are neutral about abortion ……………

Abortion is only considered in our church in instances of rape, incest, or risk to the mother’s health in any way. All other circumstances we ask and encourage people to consider life they have created and take responsibility for your actions.

Yes; that seems neutral at best. I don’t see how the Mormon Church can say it is against abortion with that policy.

, ………….and you know the Catholic Church will remain steady in their beliefs and never succumb to the modern views of the world.

I agree, and I really felt it during my visit to Rome.

 

[KathleenGee]

My husband was invited to go to a job interview in SLC…we visited Mormon sites open to us… we went to a Greek restaurant and the owner asked if we were LDS…and I had to ask what that meant…and we also went to Mass at the Madeleine…as far as comparing the physical structures of the Cathedral on Temple St…and visiting the area of the Mormon Temple, I must say I picked up a bit of competition there. If we had moved there, we would have bought a house up by the University of Utah…where they have ‘diversity’. Most of my kids did their state report on Utah and had the most fascinating exhibit stand.

I was a director of religious ed…and what I saw our teens needing was instruction in the Word of God in through the prayer to the Holy Spirit, providing means to making Jesus alive to them. Too often the faith is intellectualize to the point that the kids are led to make a choice over a philosophy…with the internet available for them to do their homework and come across all the negative things about Christianity and the Catholic Church in particular. It doesn’t help either when your teen comes home and reads the headlines about the local clergy abuse and seeing your Church threatened by the seculars to confiscate our churches and schools.

What teens need is a fundamental teaching of right from wrong…and not to be afraid they will become judgmental fundamentalists…teach them spirituality.

But when you have so many catechists not knowing their faith, not following the beliefs and standards of their faith, because they themselves are not Christ centered enough to do that, you will have loss of faith.

A priest said if you want your kids to lose their faith, send them to Catholic schools. The ones who have been keeping theirs often times are those who are in public schools or who are being homeschooled. Many Catholics are homeschooling their children to protect their faith. It is that bad.

My son went to Catholic school and told me it was all about being nice…so what.

The other that is lacking in Catholic parishes is the Christian brotherhood and culture, because before Vatican II, our culture was very heavy clergy oriented, placing priests on a pedestal and having these forthcoming entrustment issues with the wrong priests.

Now that the dust is being settled, the numbers of actual abusive priests is, as some say here, under 1%…

If people want to see a province in Italy where people have not been affected by secularism…go to www.pacebenemondo.it…click on the tabs…and you will see many young people…in groups of fellowship alive for their faith.

The priests there told me they did not have the social problems the rest of Italy…and their family structure was strictly adhered to…father works, mother is endeared by spouse and stays home to raise the children. And this part of Italy has known much history of brutal invasions and a laywoman told me they are the way they are because of suffering.

Suffering purifies one’s faith, not letting Latin rite priests have sex. there are priests who got married and divorce. It is the same problem…as lay catechists…lack of total focus on Christ and integrity of faith.

So in essence, what is missing in Catholic spirituality today is the cross, the great merit of redemptive suffering and penance…self denial …not serving the appeasement of the flesh.

 

[Murdock]

Steven168

With respect to your post #49, I suggest that you take a look at my post #41.

In that post I quoted an official Church publication, True to the Faith, summarizing the Church’s teaching as to abortion.

I realize that the Catholic Church’s teaching as to abortion is different than the teaching of my Church. I understand and respect that you believe and follow the teachings of your Church and, of course, disagree with the teachings of my Church.

However, it is incorrect and, if you know the facts (e.g. my post #41) it is insulting, to say that my Church and the Mormon people are “neutral” about abortion.

Murdock

 

[Stephen168]

Steven168

I can only assume you are talking to me; Stephen168

With respect to your post #49, I suggest that you take a look at my post #41.
In that post I quoted an official Church publication, True to the Faith, summarizing the Church’s teaching as to abortion.

I did, and see no difference between your post #41 and ‘Brother in Arms’ post#43; which I quoted. If there is a difference, please point it out.

I realize that the Catholic Church’s teaching as to abortion is different than the teaching of my Church. I understand and respect that you believe and follow the teachings of your Church and, of course, disagree with the teachings of my Church.

Yes, the Catholic Church’s teaching is rationally consistent against abortion.

However, it is incorrect and, if you know the facts (e.g. my post #41) it is insulting, to say that my Church and the Mormon people are “neutral” about abortion.

I can’t say whether an individual Mormon person is neutral on abortion but the Mormon Church is neutral at best. ‘Neutral’ is Utah Rose’s word for the position of the Mormon Church; and I think it is very generous considering the Mormon Church allows for the murder of the unborn due to the sins of its parents. That is a fact.

 

[catsrus]

originally posted by Catholic20064
I look forward to the day when married men are allowed to become priests within the Latin Rite.

This harkens back to the original observation of WHY the mormons may be more cohesive in their practice and living of their faith.
People who think this way and still call themselves Catholic… I’m sooooo very tired of this ongoing arguement.
And, if you are looking “forward to the day”, don’t hold your breath.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This harkens back to the original observation of WHY the mormons may be more cohesive in their practice and living of their faith.
People who think this way and still call themselves Catholic… I’m sooooo very tired of this ongoing arguement.
And, if you are looking “forward to the day”, don’t hold your breath.

Yeah, I caught that too. If you aren’t a faithful Catholic, maybe don’t complain about Catholics who aren’t faithful. lol.

 

[Todd520]

but the Mormon Church is neutral at best. ‘Neutral’ is Utah Rose’s word for the position of the Mormon Church; and I think it is very generous considering the Mormon Church allows for the murder of the unborn due to the sins of its parents. That is a fact.

Stephen,
It’s fairly clear to me that you haven’t read the source material provided and have nothing but your opinion to back you up. Since you won’t read the material, I’ll quote it here for you and all other readers

Members … must not submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for an abortion.

If you encourage an abortion in any way, you may be subject to Church discipline.

Even for the exceptions of incest, rape, etc you must consult Church leaders.

In no fashion can the above direction be considered as NEUTRAL

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I went to Utah last week to visit with my family in Provo. It was a wonderful experience and makes me understand why I became Mormon in the first place. The students at BYU just have it all over the students at Catholic colleges I have known – they are more mature, more friendly and generally better behaved than what I have seen among Catholic students of the same age group. Catholic students at many Catholic colleges seem to be at school as much for the beer and for sex as they are for their studies. I went to the temple grounds because my wife was going to the temple and I really felt something peaceful there. I also went to the Cathedral in Salt Lake City. While it was very beautiful, it lacked something that I encountered at the Mormon locations. It almost makes me want to be baptized Mormon again. Even if the Book of Mormon isn’t true, their religion seems to make their active members better than our religion does. The only thing that holds me to Catholicism at this point is the Eucharist. If Mormons understood the Eucharist to be the literal body and blood of Jesus like we do, I think I might become Mormon again.

To be Mormon is to be polytheistic (or henoistic) - they teach not only that there are many Gods, but that Mormons themselves may become Gods. The God of Earth (Heavenly Father) was once a man like us, of flesh and bones. He has gone through the “exaltation” process like all Mormons are eligible for, provided that they tithe and obey other rules.

Catholics are monotheists - we, like Judaism of which we are the completion – believe there is one God only, spirit not flesh, and that man is creature and will never be God. That was the sin of Adam and Eve – wanting to be like God.

You’re like a friend once said to me: “I don’t care if Mormonism is false, it’s a nice way to raise a family.” Yeah, sure, if you want to teach your kids a lie.

Joseph Smith was a con man, who is still conning people from his grave.

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I look forward to the day when married men are allowed to become priests within the Latin Rite. I believe many faithful married men would make wonderful priests. While there is a place for a professional priesthood, I do think that unpaid men could be called to the priesthood in order to make the mass and other sacraments more accessible in areas where there are shortages of priests. It would strengthen the church to increase the availability of the sacraments.

l Corinthians 7:32-34. “An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided . . .”

You know better than St. Paul?

A former Anglican “priest” will be ordained a Catholic priest at my parish by the Bishop September 11. His wife and six children will be witnesses to the event.

Exceptions to the rule of celibacy are allowed in certain circumstances, but celibacy will remain a requirement for the priesthood in the Latin Rite Church, as it has been for centuries.

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Stephen,
It’s fairly clear to me that you haven’t read the source material provided and have nothing but your opinion to back you up. Since you won’t read the material, I’ll quote it here for you and all other readers

Even for the exceptions of incest, rape, etc you must consult Church leaders.

In no fashion can the above direction be considered as NEUTRAL

So – with the approval of LDS leaders – a child is killed because of the sins of the father. flip-flop.

Jim Dandy

 

[stormy99]

Just the thought of sitting through the 3 hr meetings again makes me cringe…bearing testimonies…rs did not spend time studying the bible…and the primary singing “Follow the prophet” instead of Jesus Loves Me says quite enough…and no not everyone likes the 3 hrs…it’s as boring as can be…there is no tradition whatsoever and no continuity…BYU students are like most others except for they are ever eager to turn in a rules violator…they drink, have premartial sex and do drugs…fact not fiction…they are also married very young and sure aren’t ready for the family that soon follows…

No it’s not a wonder land in UT…about the same as every where else but more Prozac used.

stormy

 

[JRKH]

originally posted by Catholic20064
I look forward to the day when married men are allowed to become priests within the Latin Rite.

This is unfair to Catholic20064.
People who think this way certainly can still call themselves Catholic. Celibacy is a discipline that can be changed. Therefore someone holding the position that it should be changed is not committing a sin or being a “bad” catholic.

As other posters have pointed out, there are more than 30 different Rites within Catholicism. Some have married priests other do not, and even the Latin Rite that holds to a celibate priesthood has some married priests.
There will likely be more as the Anglican Ordinariate gets up and running.

So please don’t “roll your eyes” at someone who both recognizes the** fact ** of married priests and sees advantages for the Church in expanding it.

Peace
James