My visit to Utah

[Stephen168]

This is unfair to Catholic20064.
People who think this way certainly can still call themselves Catholic. Celibacy is a discipline that can be changed. Therefore someone holding the position that it should be changed is not committing a sin or being a “bad” catholic.

I think you are right if that is all Catholic20064 was saying. It seems to me, what is being said is more anti-cleric than anti-celibacy.

The Catholic Church needs to seriously consider enabling more **unpaid lay married men **to act in the role of priest **like the LDS Church does. **

Why can’t married men perform priestly functions? Why couldn’t an **unpaid lay person perform the duties of a priest **if the congregations were smaller?

Let the** lay married men become unpaid priests** and give up their lay status.

What it tells me is the Catholic priesthood as presently constituted is seriously failing in its work. ………. That may mean changing some traditions which are hampering the work – there is no reason unpaid married male clergy could not be a part of that solution unless those in power are more concerned about maintaining their grip on that power than they are about bringing people to God.

I look forward to the day when married men are allowed to become priests within the Latin Rite. I believe many faithful married men would make wonderful priests. While there is a place for a professional priesthood, I do think that** unpaid men could be called to the priesthood** in order to make the mass and other sacraments more accessible in areas where there are shortages of priests. It would strengthen the church to increase the availability of the sacraments.

And so ends the Year of the Priest.

 

[JRKH]

I think you are right if that is all Catholic20064 was saying. It seems to me, what is being said is more anti-cleric than anti-celibacy.

It may well be that, “it seems to (you)…” that Catholic2064 was being anti-clerical but let us look through the posts that you listed in support of this belief you have.

In the first two he refers to “Lay men” but in the third, and in response to my querying him on this, says, let them give up their “Lay Status”. in other words they would no longer be laymen, but priests. Married priests. none of the following quites you offer contains any reference to laymen acting as priests.
The only post then that contains anything could be read as “anticlerical” is the one about those in power wishing to retain power…Which I will agree is a poorly worded statement. There are many reasons why the Church is reluctant to change the rules on married priests. Power is not really much in the equation.

So, I think it is better and more Chrisitan to respond to what is actually said and not what “seems” to be being said.

Peace
James

 

[PopeBono]

I sense a lot of frustration on this topic in regards to activity of Catholic Church Membership.
This same frustration exists in all Christian churches today including the LDS Church.

The Gospel of our Lord and those who try to live it are under attack. Everything in the world entices people towards sin. It is not easy being a Christian, we cannot do it on our own. We need to go to our Savior and beg that his redeeming powers can complete for us what we cannot do on our own. Through his grace and his grace alone we can become whole.

Read through these posts and listen to how we sound. We sound like the pharisees of old arguing over the details of the doctrine and forgetting the two great commandments. The Savior rebuked the people of his time for this arguing, would he not do the same today?

Let us look to what we can unite in belief on and despite our doctrinal differences stand in unity in protecting and adhering the commandments of God.

It is interesting how well our church leaders get a long and jointly provide more humanitarian aid together than any other organizations on earth, yet we the people of the church get caught up in tearing down each other rather than lifting each other up.

 

[Stephen168]

It may well be that, “it seems to (you)…” that Catholic2064 was being anti-clerical but let us look through the posts that you listed in support of this belief you have.

In the first two he refers to “Lay men” but in the third, and in response to my querying him on this, says, let them give up their “Lay Status”. in other words they would no longer be laymen, but priests. Married priests. none of the following quites you offer contains any reference to laymen acting as priests.
The only post then that contains anything could be read as “anticlerical” is the one about those in power wishing to retain power…Which I will agree is a poorly worded statement. There are many reasons why the Church is reluctant to change the rules on married priests. Power is not really much in the equation.

So, I think it is better and more Chrisitan to respond to what is actually said and not what “seems” to be being said.

Peace
James

You could be right, which is why I use the word ‘seems’ instead of the word ‘is.’ When Catholic20064 says that unpaid married man acting as priests like the LDS do it. And when every statement included ‘unpaid;’ which is how the LDS do it; I see it as anti-cleric. I say anti-cleric because I had a Mormon missionary go on and on about the evils of the paid Catholic clergy. We pay our Directors of Music and our Directors of Religious Education; why not pay our clergy?
Again, I could be wrong and Catholic 20064 will clear it all up for us.

 

[Kaeleara]

I just have to ask what type of Catholic colleges you went to. If you went to ones like Gonzaga and Notre Dame, then I’m not really surprised that you saw unholy people running around everywhere. However, no good Catholic would say those schools are TRULY Catholic. I mean, Obama was invited to Notre Dame for goodness sake! Also, I think that, proportionally, there are more Mormons at BYU than there are Catholics at Gonzaga and Notre Dame. Besides, don’t Mormon boys go to training camp to be taught how to be “missionaries?” So of course the Mormon boys seem more friendly, because that’s how they were TRAINED. “Nod the head. Listen to the speaker. Don’t disagree with the speaker. Don’t lose your temper. Don’t look to the side, because that means you’re uncertain or uncomfortable. Smile occasionally. Laugh at the jokes.” What about that can be enthralling? It’s fake, learned behavior. I’d go for the genuinely interested people that can delve as deep as they want into the Bible and their faith without running into inconsistencies like having doctrines changed (for example: Mormons can suddenly/miraculously drink Coca Cola, polygamy is suddenly abolished, Mormons can sell alcohol but not drink it, and how now some things in the Bible are said to be false such as wine was really grape juice).

If you want to see what true Catholic colleges are like visit places like the University of Dallas, Wyoming Catholic College, or Thomas Aquinas College. Those actually follow the teachings of the Catholic faith, such as not having coed dorms.

Also, if you are having problems with the Catholic faith, it really is better to speak to a priest. They can have no economical reason to lie to you. Your soul is what matters.

 

[RGWA]

I went to Utah last week to visit with my family in Provo. It was a wonderful experience and makes me understand why I became Mormon in the first place. The students at BYU just have it all over the students at Catholic colleges I have known – they are more mature, more friendly and generally better behaved than what I have seen among Catholic students of the same age group. Catholic students at many Catholic colleges seem to be at school as much for the beer and for sex as they are for their studies. I went to the temple grounds because my wife was going to the temple and I really felt something peaceful there. I also went to the Cathedral in Salt Lake City. While it was very beautiful, it lacked something that I encountered at the Mormon locations. It almost makes me want to be baptized Mormon again. Even if the Book of Mormon isn’t true, their religion seems to make their active members better than our religion does. The only thing that holds me to Catholicism at this point is the Eucharist. If Mormons understood the Eucharist to be the literal body and blood of Jesus like we do, I think I might become Mormon again.

“By their fruits ye shall know them”

 

[RebeccaJ]

“By their fruits ye shall know them”

Like a grocery store, where the bad fruit is hidden under the good fruit.

 

[twopekinguys]

I look forward to the day when married men are allowed to become priests within the Latin Rite. I believe many faithful married men would make wonderful priests. While there is a place for a professional priesthood, I do think that unpaid men could be called to the priesthood in order to make the mass and other sacraments more accessible in areas where there are shortages of priests. It would strengthen the church to increase the availability of the sacraments.

There are some married priests within the Roman Rite. The priests are most often men who were ordained in another faith (ie Anglican), have converted, and gone through additional schooling/training. These men were married at the time of their ordination. Had they been single at their ordination, they would not have been allow to marry.

Also, are you familiar with Deacons in your parish?

These are lay men who go through a formation, and are ultimately ordained to the permanent Diaconate. They can preside at Weddings, Funerals, and Baptisms, (Marry, Bury, and Baptize). These men can be married at the time of their ordinatiion, but if they become widowed or divorced, they are not allowed to remarry. If they are single at their ordination, they are not allowed to marry once ordained. Also, these men are not paid by the Church.

Also, many of the lay people within the parish volunteer to head up different committees and ministries in order to take some of the load off of the priests. I personally am the Lay Director of RCIA for our parish.

 

[Brother_in_Arms]

I sense a lot of frustration on this topic in regards to activity of Catholic Church Membership.
This same frustration exists in all Christian churches today including the LDS Church.

The Gospel of our Lord and those who try to live it are under attack. Everything in the world entices people towards sin. It is not easy being a Christian, we cannot do it on our own. We need to go to our Savior and beg that his redeeming powers can complete for us what we cannot do on our own. Through his grace and his grace alone we can become whole.

Read through these posts and listen to how we sound. We sound like the pharisees of old arguing over the details of the doctrine and forgetting the two great commandments. The Savior rebuked the people of his time for this arguing, would he not do the same today?

Let us look to what we can unite in belief on and despite our doctrinal differences stand in unity in protecting and adhering the commandments of God.

It is interesting how well our church leaders get a long and jointly provide more humanitarian aid together than any other organizations on earth, yet we the people of the church get caught up in tearing down each other rather than lifting each other up.

PopeBono,

Didn’t mean to add to the bickering, if that’s what it has come to.

All I meant by my posts was clarification.

You know as well as I do that, everywhere we go, people always have misconceptions about the LDS church, which are only spurred on by those who dislike (hate?) us for some reason or another.

I would just like to be heard and not talked over for once.

 

[stormy99]

I don’t go for married priests…too much going on in a married couples house…our priests need to give to the parish…hard to do if you are going through a crisis in your home.

I want well trained priests, not just anybody in the congregation who has no training as the LDS Bishops…I sure don’t want my real estate agent knowing my personal business…there is no seal of confession for those people.

No way.

stormy

 

[Catholic20064]

I don’t go for married priests…too much going on in a married couples house…our priests need to give to the parish…hard to do if you are going through a crisis in your home.

I want well trained priests, not just anybody in the congregation who has no training as the LDS Bishops…I sure don’t want my real estate agent knowing my personal business…there is no seal of confession for those people.

No way.

stormy

That’s why I would limit married priests to men over 55 who have proven their faithfulness over many years and whose children are out of the house. You don’t think unmarried priests go through periods of crisis? I’ve seen enough unmarried priests with alcohol addictions, gambling addictions, etc. to know better. The idea that older tested faithful married men couldn’t keep the seal of the confessional is ridiculous. I can think of at least 5-10 older men in my parish who would serve wonderfully as priests. They are already serving the parish in many ways and extending the opportunity for them to provide the sacraments to people would seem very natural. There are parishes in my area that are closing because there are no priests! The people get forced into a larger parish where they lose the sense of community they previously had. That’s why LDS wards often serve the needs of the people socially better than large Catholic parishes which often seem cold and uninviting. Too many people fall through the cracks in such parishes.

 

[Todd520]

That’s why I would limit married priests to men over 55 who have proven their faithfulness over many years and whose children are out of the house. You don’t think unmarried priests go through periods of crisis? I’ve seen enough unmarried priests with alcohol addictions, gambling addictions, etc. to know better. The idea that older tested faithful married men couldn’t keep the seal of the confessional is ridiculous. I can think of at least 5-10 older men in my parish who would serve wonderfully as priests. They are already serving the parish in many ways and extending the opportunity for them to provide the sacraments to people would seem very natural. There are parishes in my area that are closing because there are no priests! The people get forced into a larger parish where they lose the sense of community they previously had. That’s why LDS wards often serve the needs of the people socially better than large Catholic parishes which often seem cold and uninviting. Too many people fall through the cracks in such parishes.

Speaking as an ex-catholic, I think married priests would bring a deeper understanding of family issues to their work, to counseling and motivating parishioners. I had never thought of the confessional as a risk, but I can see it now.

My Uncle was a married Lutheran Minister. My observation was the wife often becomes an unpaid volunteer as opposed the family taking away the time of the priest/minister

 

[RebeccaJ]

Speaking as an ex-catholic, I think married priests would bring a deeper understanding of family issues to their work

Similar arguments are made for having women priests. Are you also in support of this?

 

[Todd520]

Similar arguments are made for having women priests. Are you also in support of this?

In past centuries, women were “not equal” to men so it was appropriate and reflected custom. Women were barred from

• entering the sanctuary (except to clean)
• reading scripture from the pulpit
• preaching or distributing communion
• being Mass servers
• communion during their period
• entering the church after birthing (needed to be purified)
• touching sacred objects such as the chalice, paten, or altar linen
• being in church without a veil

In the past 100 yrs, this has all changed, except for the right to receive Holy Orders

I would pray for the Pope to receive guidance from the Holy Spirt, to make the change.

 

[PopeBono]

I know a lot of Mormon’s who converted to the catholic church. While there are obvious distinctions I think people searching for religion find basic similarities and then choose which church to join based on their own lifestyle. There are many people who enjoy the Mormon church but like to drink or smoke so they end up joining another church that permits a lifestyle more in line with their personal lifestyle.
Likewise there are many Christians that are homosexual that find relief in churches that accept their lifestyle.

I highly doubt that you will ever see Catholics or Mormons admitting people to clergy who knowingly and willingly break commandments. I have long admired the Catholic church to sticking to this doctrine.

As far as women clergy I do believe that both churches currently have women clergy, the catholic church has Nuns, and Mormon’s have relief society presidents.

 

[PopeBono]

In past centuries, women were “not equal” to men so it was appropriate and reflected custom. Women were barred from

• entering the sanctuary (except to clean)
• reading scripture from the pulpit
• preaching or distributing communion
• being Mass servers
• communion during their period
• entering the church after birthing (needed to be purified)
• touching sacred objects such as the chalice, paten, or altar linen
• being in church without a veil

In the past 100 yrs, this has all changed, except for the right to receive Holy Orders

I would pray for the Pope to receive guidance from the Holy Spirt, to make the change.

We have the same thing with the LDS church. For example women did not speak in general conference until the late 70’s.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

In past centuries, women were “not equal” to men so it was appropriate and reflected custom. Women were barred from

• entering the sanctuary (except to clean)
• reading scripture from the pulpit
• preaching or distributing communion
• being Mass servers
• communion during their period
• entering the church after birthing (needed to be purified)
• touching sacred objects such as the chalice, paten, or altar linen
• being in church without a veil

In the past 100 yrs, this has all changed, except for the right to receive Holy Orders

I would pray for the Pope to receive guidance from the Holy Spirt, to make the change.

Will you also pray for the Prophet to receive guidance from the Holy Spirit to allow Mormon women to be ordained?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I know a lot of Mormon’s who converted to the catholic church. While there are obvious distinctions I think people searching for religion find basic similarities and then choose which church to join based on their own lifestyle. There are many people who enjoy the Mormon church but like to drink or smoke so they end up joining another church that permits a lifestyle more in line with their personal lifestyle.
Likewise there are many Christians that are homosexual that find relief in churches that accept their lifestyle.

ah well, by this logic it must be that people leaving Catholicism for Mormonism do so because a prideful and arrogant existence is what they are after.

I highly doubt that you will ever see Catholics or Mormons admitting people to clergy who knowingly and willingly break commandments. I have long admired the Catholic church to sticking to this doctrine.

As far as women clergy I do believe that both churches currently have women clergy, the catholic church has Nuns, and Mormon’s have relief society presidents.

Nuns aren’t priests and RS pres. aren’t priesthood holders.

 

[Todd520]

Will you also pray for the Prophet to receive guidance from the Holy Spirit to allow Mormon women to be ordained?

I expect both LDS and Catholic leadership to receive this direction from the Holy Spirt within the next 100 yrs.

I think people ask too much to have everything changed at once - 50 yrs is not even a blink of the eye in the cultural history of Man.

 

[PopeBono]

ah well, by this logic it must be that people leaving Catholicism for Mormonism do so because a prideful and arrogant existence is what they are after.

I can only speak of why some Mormons I know left the church and joined others, in may cases it was lifestyle, in other cases it was doctrinal and some just did not like the people and the politics.

The few catholics I know who converted to Mormon I know as I was their missionary, but that is their personal decision of which I do not feel is appropriate for me to share on the boards. I am a guest of this board which is very hospitable for the catholic church to host and allow people of other faiths share their views.

Nuns aren’t priests and RS pres. aren’t priesthood holders.

The only doctrine I am aware of in regards to the priesthood is that men have to be given the priesthood. One can draw upon this that women are born with it and that men need it although that is not doctrine. It is true that in the temple women participate in priesthood ordinances.