My visit to Utah

[Jim_Dandy]

Jim being Mormon I have heard everything, It no longer offends me to hear another persons belief about our church. I have a full reconciliation with every Anti-Mormon material I have heard and understand the scriptural backing of statements that have truth mixed with error in the anti-Mormon material.
This is usually the case; there is truth to what is being said but almost always it is presented in a manner inconsistent with official church statement of the doctrine.
In almost all cases additional anti-Mormon statements are made as being 100% fact when in reality they are truth mixed with error on the presenters part and presented in a way that is intended to blind out the context.
For example" Mormons BELIEVE SATAN and JESUS were BROTHERS. The truth in that is we believe Satan was lived with us in a pre-mortal life where he became fallen for rebellion. From that a person could draw that since we were all created by God we are spiritually related having the same creator but the doctrine does not state Jesus and Satan are brothers. It is a logical philosophy. If I was to go out and tell people Jim and I are Brothers people would thing that we are actual brothers which is not correct although we are brothers in the spiritual sense.
If you wish to point out LDS doctrines that you find offensive to warn others of what you perceive to be blasphemy and of great danger to the souls of others then you should do so if you feel you are called to do so but please present things in an honest manner that truly represents our official Church Doctrine and then I can answer honestly but when the doctrine is presented in a manner not in representation of official Church Doctrine then it is difficult to answer because I have to first point out the false claims first.
You will find that I will answer you with honesty and to the best of my ability if given the chance. I believe in my faith and will not run from it.

As far as why we accept a bible from an “apostate” church I posted earlier a link to a lengthy statement on our church’s view on the Apostasy. If you cannot find it I can repost it. From that document you can feel free to point out errors that are of concern to you.

Thank you for your post Bono. Mormon doctrine is a moving target. It has changed over time in significant ways, sometimes through “revelations,” sometimes by Mormon teachers giving it a new and different spin to make it sound more like mainstream Christianity.

–quote-- We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and to teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father . . . Two of our brothers offered to help. Jesus Christ **[brother #1], **who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27) . . . Satan, who was called Lucifer **[brother #2], **also came, saying, "Behold here am I, send me . . . Because our Heavenly Father chose Jesus Christ to be our savior, Satan became angry and rebelled. There was war in heaven. Satan and his followers fought against Jesus and his followers. --end quote–

Excerpt from Gospel Principles, published by the LDS Church, Salt Lake City, Utah 1988. This book is used in the instruction of Mormons. I bought it from the local LDS bookstore. They are still selling Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McKonkle, which you said names the Catholic Church as the Great Abominable Church whose foundation is the devil – and which you also said is not official Mormon teaching. They obviously think it is.

According to official Mormon doctrine, we are all ‘spirit children’ of the same Heavenly Father and his goddess wives (who was once a man like us and is flesh and bones) and we all lived together in a pre-existant condition somewhere in the universe (on the star Kolob?). Jesus is our brother, and Satan is our brother, and Jesus and Satan are brothers.

Again, you are free to believe whatever you wish, but this is not Christian doctrine and should not be characterized as such. Jesus is God, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity; Satan is a fallen angel. Jesus and Satan were not ‘spirit children’ and neither were we. There is no pre-existence. God is pure spirit, not flesh and blood. Man cannot become a God – ever!

You didn’t answer my question about why the LDS use the Bible of an alleged ‘apostate Church’. There was no “Great Apostasy.” The Bible is a Catholic book. How will reading Mormon doctrine about the alleged ‘apostasy’ of the Catholic Church explain why the LDS uses her Bible?

Peace be with you, Jim Dandy

 

[RebeccaJ]

Paul that would not be grounds for excommunication. Excommunication for someones personal belief that is contrary to official doctrine would only happen when the person of such belief preaches it as factual and from the pew.

Or publicly published.

I wonder if a public forum counts a publicly published?

 

[mrmagoo661]

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 1:6-9[/BIBLEDRB]

No one is saying that Mormons aren’t good wholesome people…
They are just wrong.
Plain and simple.
The Mormon religion is run like a corporation, and every ward is a franchise.
Some of the best salesman I’ve ever met were part of the Mormon religion.
Why do you think that is?
Mormonism is the Amway of theology. Get enough people to join your “business” and you can be a god too…

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Paul, you funny guy :yup: :clapping:
I fully support current LDS doctrine AND Catholic doctrine. However, if Vegas was taking bets and I would be around to collect in 100 yrs, you know where I’d place my bet.

You can’t support two unalterably opposed doctrines (unless you’re schizo).

There is one God, or there are many Gods.
God is either pure spirit, or He is flesh and blood and bones.
Satan is either the brother of Jesus (and our brother), or he is not.
We either lived a pre-existent life, or we did not.
etc. etc. etc. etc.

Mormonism will eventually go the way of all heresies. Archaeology and genetics have disproved its origins and will eventually be its demise. It has lasted 200 years, not 2,000 – the age of the original Christian (Catholic) Church, which Jesus founded – who is God Himself, not a former splrit child of a polygamous (actually, polygynous) exalted human who became a God.

Jim Dandy

 

[Todd520]

You can’t support two unalterably opposed doctrines (unless you’re schizo).

By supporting the RCC, I mean I don’t protest, chastize or disagree with the stated RCC doctrine as I know it
By supporting the LDS, I mean I accept the doctrine and pray the Holy Spirit will guide me and improve my understanding.
If you want to call that Schizo, be my guest.

If you don’t have sincere questions to post here, why not spend your time in one of the other sub forums and work on your Faith and Charity?

 

[KathleenGee]

The Madeleine, Cathedral of SLC, has written on the front right wall, the words to Galatians 1:8…Women have been allowed to be readers at the Mass since 1970, but are not given the office of Acolyte. Pope John Paul II also said it is time for women to participate more at the Mass.

When I read some Catholic posts here what women can’t do…well, I need to give it some balance.

In the ‘Ratzinger Report’, Pope Benedict defines woman as the protected gender.

And the whole problem with women ordination was primarily a North American religious women issue…coupled by the fact that the apostolic life of these same congregations have not been growing in vocations. The more traditional and contemplative orders survived and are growing in vocations.

The counterpoint to the plight of women and their place in the Church…we are not part of the old Eve, we are also made new in our womanhood with our alliance with the New Eve…Maria…She was formerly called ‘Miriam’,…bitter…The Carmelites first recognized her in their personal interpretation – not orthodox/universal – going back to Kings when Elijah looked out at the sea for 7 days…waiting for rain as Israel had come out of idolatry to Baal…finally on the 7th day he saw a small cloud rise from the sea…like a hand…and it rose and grew and finally became a cloud that brought rain to the parched earth.

Mary is supposedly to have handed the Brown Scapular to St. Simon Stock during the age of Francis and Dominic and the beginning of these mendicant orders.

Just as Simon and Saul had their names changed to Peter and Paul and both dying in Rome on the grounds of the Vatican, Miriam’s name was changed to Maria – as a sea of Grace.

So women who have a humble devotion to Mary, the Mother of God, learn from her and have their womanhood particularly restored in Christ through her. And then we have the great communion of saints…and St. Catherine of Siena minced no words when she worked to straighten out the pope and bishops and the Church in general.

When it comes to holiness, the men have absolutely no monopoly in the Catholic Church…Many times I have witnessed parish women keeping our priests on towing the line.

Finally, in regards to getting more men into the priesthood, offering them sex is not going to do. Having sex is not going to increase the kingdom.

Christ is the one who gives life to the church, not having sex. This past year when the media went on the blitz to destroy any credibility in the Church during Holy Week, we saw in many dioceses the greatest number of conversions. Contradiction…but that is a sign of how God works.

 

[Catholic20064]

The Madeleine, Cathedral of SLC, has written on the front right wall, the words to Galatians 1:8…Women have been allowed to be readers at the Mass since 1970, but are not given the office of Acolyte. Pope John Paul II also said it is time for women to participate more at the Mass.

When I read some Catholic posts here what women can’t do…well, I need to give it some balance.

In the ‘Ratzinger Report’, Pope Benedict defines woman as the protected gender.

And the whole problem with women ordination was primarily a North American religious women issue…coupled by the fact that the apostolic life of these same congregations have not been growing in vocations. The more traditional and contemplative orders survived and are growing in vocations.

The counterpoint to the plight of women and their place in the Church…we are not part of the old Eve, we are also made new in our womanhood with our alliance with the New Eve…Maria…She was formerly called ‘Miriam’,…bitter…The Carmelites first recognized her in their personal interpretation – not orthodox/universal – going back to Kings when Elijah looked out at the sea for 7 days…waiting for rain as Israel had come out of idolatry to Baal…finally on the 7th day he saw a small cloud rise from the sea…like a hand…and it rose and grew and finally became a cloud that brought rain to the parched earth.

Mary is supposedly to have handed the Brown Scapular to St. Simon Stock during the age of Francis and Dominic and the beginning of these mendicant orders.

Just as Simon and Saul had their names changed to Peter and Paul and both dying in Rome on the grounds of the Vatican, Miriam’s name was changed to Maria – as a sea of Grace.

So women who have a humble devotion to Mary, the Mother of God, learn from her and have their womanhood particularly restored in Christ through her. And then we have the great communion of saints…and St. Catherine of Siena minced no words when she worked to straighten out the pope and bishops and the Church in general.

When it comes to holiness, the men have absolutely no monopoly in the Catholic Church…Many times I have witnessed parish women keeping our priests on towing the line.

Finally, in regards to getting more men into the priesthood, offering them sex is not going to do. Having sex is not going to increase the kingdom.

Christ is the one who gives life to the church, not having sex. This past year when the media went on the blitz to destroy any credibility in the Church during Holy Week, we saw in many dioceses the greatest number of conversions. Contradiction…but that is a sign of how God works.

If you wait until the married man is 55 the opportunity to have sex will hardly be something that attracts him to the priesthood. The opportunity to provide service to his fellow Catholics will.

 

[Todd520]

Jim, if you read my note again, you will see i gave examples of practices that HAVE CHANGED, primarily in the past 100 yrs. My point is that culture has changed, not that these items were against the culture of their day. Womens’ Sufferage is a recent event in terms of history.

I was not criticizing the RCC - I live in a glass house.

IMHO, no modern man would chose the priesthood because of sex.
IMHO, celebate priests have more time, but also lack experience and wisdom a married priest can bring to the job.

 

[amontoya]

In past centuries, women were “not equal” to men so it was appropriate and reflected custom. Women were barred from

• entering the sanctuary (except to clean)
• reading scripture from the pulpit
• preaching or distributing communion
• being Mass servers
  - communion during their period
  - entering the church after birthing (needed to be purified)
• touching sacred objects such as the chalice, paten, or altar linen
• being in church without a veil

In the past 100 yrs, this has all changed, except for the right to receive Holy Orders

I would pray for the Pope to receive guidance from the Holy Spirt, to make the change.

That’s what earlier generations in my family were taught (Catholics from Midwest)

I’m sorry, but that kind of a response would not be acceptable if it were in reference to LDS teachings, so I don’t think it should be acceptable from you.

No Mormon on this forum would accept a response from a Catholic along the lines of “that’s what earlier generations of my family were taught (Mormons from Utah),” without asking for references to back up the claims made by the Catholic.

Please provide references for these statements, or retract them.

 

[KathleenGee]

Pope John Paul II wrote ‘Theology of the Body’…a celibate man, but so insightful…many devout Catholic couples are profoundly touched and helped by this writing. I have had many priests counsel throughout my life…one priest was sharing his experience working with married couples most of his life and he was most insightful.

Usually, healthy priests would have made healthy spouses. So again, people do not understand or have knowledge of Catholic spirituality…don’t be hung up on the vow of celibacy…many priests, maintaining their vows, enjoy a very deep social life, and when the day is done, they want to be alone with the Lord.

I think the sacraments of Holy Orders, confession and the Eucharist…outward signs of Christ…provide all the strength necessary to fully minister to our people.

 

[qOLOp]

I went to Utah last week to visit with my family in Provo. It was a wonderful experience and makes me understand why I became Mormon in the first place. The students at BYU just have it all over the students at Catholic colleges I have known – they are more mature, more friendly and generally better behaved than what I have seen among Catholic students of the same age group. Catholic students at many Catholic colleges seem to be at school as much for the beer and for sex as they are for their studies. I went to the temple grounds because my wife was going to the temple and I really felt something peaceful there. I also went to the Cathedral in Salt Lake City. While it was very beautiful, it lacked something that I encountered at the Mormon locations. It almost makes me want to be baptized Mormon again. Even if the Book of Mormon isn’t true, their religion seems to make their active members better than our religion does. The only thing that holds me to Catholicism at this point is the Eucharist. If Mormons understood the Eucharist to be the literal body and blood of Jesus like we do, I think I might become Mormon again.

If your going to leave the Catholic Church over the actions of students then you have no clue what the Catholic Faith holds and maybe you should look into it further. What I love about this argument is its so anti Christian to its core. We are all sinners for one, and second judge not lest yee be judged. Thirdly you should pray for those who stray from the path and not condemn the body of Christ which is the Church when someone chooses to sin rather than practice virtue. But sure I guess hurting Christ is the best option. I mean what would people think of you right? You might loose all human respect! Plus I’m sure the apostles stopped being Christians when Judas betrayed Christ, or when Peter denied Him three times, or how about the time when the remaining 11 abandoned Christ while during His Passion?

But the main reason for why I would never leave the Church regardless of how many sinners there are or who is doing what is because of the EUCHARIST!

 

[Brother_in_Arms]

The Bible is a Catholic book. How will reading Mormon doctrine about the alleged ‘apostasy’ of the Catholic Church explain why the LDS uses her Bible?

Technically, it’s a Jewish book. That’s why we use it.

I mean this and am not trying to ruffle feathers, but I REALLY do want to hear the official Catholic stance/doctrine/understanding of the tribes of Israel/Jewish nation and where they fit in Catholic theology.

Is there any explanation of how God’s promises to Abraham will be fulfilled in the last days through these tribes? Or is it something just glossed over?

And please do explain infant baptism to me. If you claim to follow the Bible so well, can I have references to it in scripture?

Really. I’m curious, not trying to be smug.

(There’s already TOO much smugness from both sides in this forum. It’s driving me crazy. Can’t we all just shut up until we can talk rationally? Without subtle attacks behind all of our words?)

 

[KathleenGee]

The 12 tribes of Israel…Christ is the New Covenant replacing the Old. The tablet on which God fingered the 10 commandments was thrown to the ground by Moses when he saw God’s people turn away from Him and worship the Golden Calf…in essence, the Law was already broken…and before the Jews even entered the Promised Land.

Jesus is the Living Cornerstone…His 12 apostles going out to preach the Good News…12 symbolizing perfection, 12 symbolizing the Church…replacing or fulfilling the mission of the Jewish people to bring forth the Messiah…but not solely for them but for all mankind.

The Church always upholds the Jews as God’s Chosen People, a promise never to be broken. And we owe our gratitude to them not only for the Messiah and Savior, but also for their tradition of Ancient Scripture, we re-partaking in the events of their history in the public recitation and reflection on writings of the Old Testament, the spirituality of the Psalms…

 

[mrmagoo661]

Brother in Arms;7025799]Technically, it’s a Jewish book. That’s why we use it.

The Catholic church compiled the New Testament as it is now.

And please do explain infant baptism to me. If you claim to follow the Bible so well, can I have references to it in scripture?

[BIBLEDRB]Col. 2:11–12[/BIBLEDRB]

Cicumcision is no longer neccesary. Baptism takes the place of it. Circumcision was given to infants who were 8 days old as well as adults. If Baptism replaced Circumcision than it only makes sense that Baptism would be given to infants as well as adults.

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 16:15[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor. 1:16[/BIBLEDRB]

Here’s a question for you…
Which book do you follow more. If you had to choose. The book of Mormon, or The Bible? Honestly.

And what do you make of this bible verse?
[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 1:1-2 [/BIBLEDRB]

 

[SteveVH]

The Catholic church compiled the New Testament as it is now.

Not only did the Catholic Church compile the New Testament, the New Testament was actually written by some of the first Catholics.

The Catholic Church considers the Jewish people our elder brothers and sisters in the faith. The Church is the fulfillment of God’s promises to the Jews. The Messiah has come and subsists in the tabernacles of the Catholic Church.

 

[Todd520]

Not only did the Catholic Church compile the New Testament, the New Testament was actually written by some of the first Catholics.

The Catholic Church considers the Jewish people our elder brothers and sisters in the faith. The Church is the fulfillment of God’s promises to the Jews. The Messiah has come and subsists in the tabernacles of the Catholic Church.

Hmmm,
I think the first people to record the word of the 12 disciples were called christians, not Catholics

The initial churches were all local churches without structure or organization, following the teachings of the Apostles as they knew it. Organization came later as the Catholic church gained form. And yes the Catholic church saved the bible through their scribes who continued to copy the original gospels

 

[mrmagoo661]

Hmmm,
I think the first people to record the word of the 12 disciples were called christians, not Catholics

Are you kidding me. Really.

The word Catholic means universal. The universal Church wrote and compiled the bible. As Tim Staples likes to say there is no inspired table of contents. There was a structured church in the early centuries Even in the Acts of Apostles we see evidence of that [BIBLEDRB]Acts of the Apostles 20:28[/BIBLEDRB] All of Paul’s letters are written to Churches that have been established.
[BIBLEDRB]Philippians 1:1[/BIBLEDRB]

And also Ignatius of Antioch who was alive from around 35AD-117AD who was a Bishop of Antioch was writing to established churches.
saintignatiuschurch.org/letters.html

Where exactly are you getting your history from?

 

[Todd520]

Are you kidding me. Really.

The word Catholic means universal.

The word Catholic was not used to describe the “Church” until the 2nd century, to emphasize its universal scope.

 

[mrmagoo661]

The word Catholic was not used to describe the “Church” until the 2nd century, to emphasize its universal scope.

Yes. So What. What does that have to do with anything. Yes, thats exactly what it meant. It was to emphasize its universal scope. Catholics are the first Christians. Peter the head of the apostles and was Christianty’s first Pope.

I challenge you to look at writings of the early church. There are lots of them…

I see what your getting at. But unlike the “History” your church teaches. The Catholic Christian writing and church never ceases to be. Not after the last apostle. Not ever.

 

[KathleenGee]

Todd,

The Church endured upheavals and persecution in its first three hundred years…a primitive church…When peace and acceptance came, and Greek was the international language, the word universal Christian was used as Christ came for all…and Catholic in Greek is Katholic.