My wife will never submit to me...should that matter?

[holy_face]

Right reason is what is actually right, regardless of who recognizes it as right. So if the husband and everybody he knows is wrong except for his wife who is right that doesn’t change the fact that, in that case, she is right. He can try and pass her off as just having a personal feeling, or preference or opinion, but it won’t change the fact that in that particular instance she is correct and he is wrong, and so, in this instance she has no obligation to allow her husband to decide and follow his decision.

No, you are just looking for any reason to get out of the teaching about the husband’s headship. She is not right because she thinks she is, that is not right reason. Right reason would be something that is objectively reasonable.

The way you are interpreting it basically nullifies the whole teaching of headship, all she has to do is disagree, and his authority is essentially removed and not followed. It makes absolutely no sense.

Right reason does not suggest personal opinions, but things that are objectively reasonable as a whole, it suggests something of a serious matter where it is generally agreeable it is either beneficial or harmful.

The husband would have to be doing something that is objectively reckless for the wife to question his headship.

 

[thewanderer]

Right Reason would be something that is is objectively correct, you just stated that above. Objectively correct would be something that is true outside of one’s personal feelings or opinions.

You do not have the right to rjeect your your husband’s leadership because you think he is wrong and disagree, but must be something objectively unreasonable, such as him suggesting you both drive over a cliff together or maybe something less drastic; take all of your money out of the bank and burn it in a campfire.

Unless something is objectively unreasonable (contrary to right reason) the wife is supposed to follow her husband’s headship.

First, you are still using your interpretation here. This doesn’t need to be something everybody would agree on as wrong.

Second, you have to look at this from both sides, since the wife has no obligation to follow her husband if he is not in accord with right reason, he has no authority (as you use it) unless he can show that what he is saying is in harmony with right reason just as much as the wife has to show it is against right reason if they are in a disagreement. Which means, they will need to sit down and have a discussion about it and try to hash it out and show each other why they think the other person is wrong. If done lovingly and out of a sincere desire to figure out what is actually the right thing to do, this kind of discussion usually solves the issue and the couple decide together on what is the right thing to do.

 

[Walking_Home]

No, you are just looking for any reason to get out of the teaching about the husband’s headship. She is not right because she thinks she is, that is not right reason. Right reason would be something that is objectively reasonable.

Wow – this is basically saying – that men are the only ones with the “ability” to discern /have “right reason” and be “objectively reasonable”.

I’m wondering if some – wake up in the morning – and thank God – they were not born female.

 

[thewanderer]

No, you are just looking for any reason to get out of the teaching about the husband’s headship.

This is a scandolous assumption. You do not know me and you do not know my motivations, if you did you would not be able to make such a claim as you have above. I am the last person who would go around looking for a reason to get out of Church teaching. I care very deeply about the truth, and about finding out what the truth is, regardless of how difficult it may be. It is extremely unCatholic to try and dismiss someones thoughts on a topic by assuming they don’t care about the truth. I highly suggest you reread the CCC’s section on lying, it covers the importance of avoiding making negative assumptions of others, and even further against making said assumptions public. I hope you will apologize for your unwarranted and false assumption that I am rationalizing here rather than sincerely seeking the truth. Its funny, but you just happened to hit a nerve, I can let a lot of negative assumptions about me slide, but I feel so strongly about the importance of honestly and sincerely seeking the truth that any implication to the contrary cannot stand.

She is not right because she thinks she is, that is not right reason. Right reason would be something that is objectively reasonable.

No, it is something that is objectively true. How does she determine whether something is objectively true or not? She uses her reason, (which we are not allowed to view as less than her husbands).

The way you are interpreting it basically nullifies the whole teaching of headship, all she has to do is disagree, and his authority is essentially removed and not followed. It makes absolutely no sense.

No, it does not at all nullify the teaching, it just shows the teaching to be different than what you previously believed it to be.

Right reason does not suggest personal opinions, but things that are objectively reasonable as a whole,** it suggests something of a serious matter where it is generally agreeable it is either beneficial or harmful.**

The husband would have to be doing something that is objectively reckless for the wife to question his headship.

The bolded is completely your own assertion, there is nothing in Casti Connubii that implies any such qualification. You are simply inserting it because you are already convinced that your understanding of headship must be correct and must be what the Church meant. You have stated so yourself that the reason you reject my interpretation of Casti Connubii (which interpretation simply comes from reading the text and seeing what it actually says) is because it contradicts your own opinion on what the Church must mean by headship. It is ironic that you should accuse me of trying to justify my own opinions when it is you who refuses to read Casti Connubii as it is because such a reading contradicts your previously-held views on the subject.

 

[Xantippe]

holy face said:

“Yet objectively your husband was right, your kid’s not going to college would be a greater evil than you living with old carpet”

In the interests of simplicity, I left out the fact that because my husband works for a college, the kids could live at home and go to a good four year school for about $5k a year, as opposed to the $25k a year that we are assuming in our calculations (that would be approximately the cost of going to our big state school). Neither of us want to force the kids to go to school here, though, as we feel that wouldn’t be fair. It’s just that I want a pretty kitchen rather more than I want to send the kids to college at the state flagship and my husband very naturally disagrees.

I would not have agreed to buy this particular house if I knew that I was going to wait 10-20 years for the renovation–we’d already waited 15 years and had three kids before we bought our first home. I felt a bit like Jacob did when he discovered that he’d worked 7 years and gotten the ugly sister.

Another true story about my husband and home improvement: before we bought our house, we once had a discussion where he was wanting me to logically demonstrate to him why paint on interior walls is necessary. Why isn’t bare dry wall good enough? I eventually was able to prove this to his satisfaction, but that’s an example of life with my husband–I need to demonstrate the necessity of even the most basic niceties. He’s not an ogre, by any means, but he is unconventional, whereas I am not.

 

[crenfro]

Hello.

I’m sorry you’re having this trouble…am also very happy that you’ve found the Catholic Church in your journeys.

Being a woman, I don’t know exactly what to tell you. I know there’s a book called Be A Man by Fr. Larry Richards that might help, but then, I dunno. I know Fr. Richards also holds retreats or something like that for men.

From what I understand about St. Paul’s admonition for wives to be submissive to their husbands, it’s supposed to be a sort of mutual thing – the husband is supposed to be willing to give up his life for his wife and his wife is to be submissive to her husband, provided this is all done in love. But this is how I understand things and is only my opinion. What do you say about this?

…

…My wife is still not a Christian. She is embittered because of the stupid stuff I’ve done and how I haven’t loved her as I should (at times I’ve been a downright jerk). She thinks I’m stupid (and being honest, rightfully so). All this being said, I don’t think she’ll ever submit to me as her husband. She will always try to “rule the roost”. I can fight with her and get her to back down on some things, but therein lies my query. Should it matter?

I know that I like to look up to my husband as the leader in our little family and if he didn’t have the integrity that he has it would be very difficult for me to think much of him and his decisions.

In my opinion I think it matters that the husband is the head of the household. Men don’t do well emasculated and women don’t care for it either. Not that, in my opinion, all people would admit to this.

My suggestions to you would be abandoning your self and will to God, loving your wife, continuing to take good care of your family, perhaps couple’s therapy, Al-Anon meetings, perhaps a good Catholic couple’s retreat, watching that movie “Fireproof”, and reading what C.S. Lewis wrote about how a good marriage works. But then these are only my suggestions.

In Jane Austen’s book Pride and Prejudice, the results of a father not being the head of the house he should be are short of tragic.

Here is what I mean. Obviously I can’t change her mind. Also, if I do try to “make the decisions”, she gets upset. Jesus said that one desiring to be the leader, should become the servant. Should I take that to mean that I should let her make most of the decisions (unless they are against my faith) thereby demonstrating the way? Or put another way, should I “lead by example?”

Placing you in the enclosed garden of the most sacred heart of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Please pray for me.