Mystery of Faith

[JKirkLVNV]

There’s one for ya, JKIRK!

I point out Bob’s to you, Paramedicgirl.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I point out Bob’s to you, Paramedicgirl.

Like I said JKIRK, there it is on both sides. Point proven, once again.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Like I said JKIRK, there it is on both sides. Point proven, once again.

So, you agree, the smugness and arrogance of some “traditionalists” migth prove problematic for winning sympathy for the Universal Indult, among people of good will who might have otherwise supported it?

 

[paramedicgirl]

So, you agree, the smugness and arrogance of some “traditionalists” might prove problematic for winning sympathy for the Universal Indult, among people of good will who might have otherwise supported it?

Along the same lines that the smugness and arrogance of some liberals make these very same traditionalists dislike the Novus Ordo, yes. See below for one more example:

originally posted by Joysong
And as one poster said, and another seconded, may I add my “third” Amen to “frankly, I’m getting tired of hearing/seeing this whining”? Go in prayer and learn the Lord’s thoughts:

The Protestant lifts his heart in morning prayer…

The charismatic raises his arms in prayer…

The Catholic gives thanks in prayer for his new day…

**The traditionalist prays and says, I’m glad I’m not one like them, and when will you give me back my rights…

Whom does the Lord hear?**

 

[JKirkLVNV]

No I am not the arbiter and neither are you. Please try not to confuse other threads with this one. By all means start a thread that deals with the NOM versus Masses before it, and we shall see the differences between them and you can prove that they are the same (heresy). You obviously have not taken the opportunity to review the cited evidences deal with the NOM and how similar it is to protestant services. Please review again the thread - A New catholic Religion - for your benefit. This is the section for Traditional Catholicism right? No doubt.

Sorry, one other point:

I have examined the TLM and the NO side by side (both are lovely) and I freely admit that they are not the same. The point is, they both CONFECT THE SAME SACRIFICE. To assert otherwise is manifest HERESY.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Along the same lines that the smugness and arrogance of some liberals make these very same traditionalists dislike the Novus Ordo, yes. See below for one more example:

A scan of the threads, with any degree of objectivity, would bear out the utter VERACITY of what you just posted. That is an ACCURATE description. You’ve summed it up nicely.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Sorry, one other point:

I have examined the TLM and the NO side by side (both are lovely) and I freely admit that they are not the same. The point is, they both CONFECT THE SAME SACRIFICE. To assert otherwise is manifest HERESY.

Yes, they do both confect the same sacrifice. The manner in which it is done at many NO Masses is where the problem lies. I have only been to two truly reverent NO Masses and that was in Seattle last month at the Father Corapi Lenten retreat.

 

[paramedicgirl]

A scan of the threads, with any degree of objectivity, would bear out the utter VERACITY of what you just posted. That is an ACCURATE description. You’ve summed it up nicely.

So you agree that the problem lies both ways, with attacks from both sides?

Have you given up on believing that NO Catholics never bash trads?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Yes, they do both confect the same sacrifice. The manner in which it is done at many NO Masses is where the problem lies. I have only been to two truly reverent NO Masses and that was in Seattle last month at the Father Corapi Lenten retreat.

Not my experience, though they do have some hum-dingers in CA. Perhaps it’s the proximity to the ocean?

And I’m starting to wonder if “traditionalists” and the rest of us could even come to a common definition of what “truly reverent.” If it’s NOT the TLM, is it capable of BEING reverent, I wonder?

 

[MTD]

Hey paramedicgirl and JKirkLVNV,

Don’t you think that stuff is way off-topic?

Maria

 

[paramedicgirl]

Not my experience, though they do have some hum-dingers in CA. Perhaps it’s the proximity to the ocean?

And I’m starting to wonder if “traditionalists” and the rest of us could even come to a common definition of what “truly reverent.” If it’s NOT the TLM, is it capable of BEING reverent, I wonder?

In Canada, where the CCCB refused to accept Humane Vitae, and teach that birth control is OK, what do you expect? Reverent Masses? This is CanChurch, and a reverent Novus Mass must be very scarce, 'cause I haven’t yet been to one in my own country. I was absolutely amazed at the Masses I attended in Seattle. So was my sister.

I might add that we don’t follow the GIRM in Canada either. Another reason that chaos reigns.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

So you agree that the problem lies both ways, with attacks from both sides?

Have you given up on believing that NO Catholics never bash trads?

With a couple of exceptions, NOT IN THESE THREADS! (and even then, they’re mightily provoked). They overwhelmingly are simply trying to defend A) the Pauline Mass; B) the Popes; C) the Council.

First,YOU keep saying NO Catholics, none of us took that title upon ourselves, as “traditionalists” took theirs. We’re just Catholics. When you say NO Catholics, to us it sounds like you’re saying “Barney Mass” Catholics or “Halloween Mass” Catholics. You make us sound like we’re devotees of liturgical dance and nuns waving bowls of incense around. NONE of the people who advocate for these things post on these forums, do they? Where are the Richard McBriens and the Richard Rohrs and the Joannie Chichesters, OSB? We’re all too conservative for them to hang around for more than a few posts, because we blow them out of the water, if not by the force and logic of good argument, then simply because they can’t find anyone to agree with them. But we’ve been lumped in with them, though these abuses concern us deeply, fill us with as much horror as they do you.

Second, in the two (that’s 2) examples you’ve cited, where did the poster in question actually mock the TLM? Can you answer that? Yes, both of them characterized “traditionalists,” but where did they mock the Mass? They didn’t, out of reverence and respect for an ancient, venerable, and beloved rite of the Church. But could we make the same observation about “traditionalists?” Can’t we find innumerable instances where they’ve mocked the Mass, where they’ve heaped derision on that rite of the Holy Sacrifice (“Bogus Ordo” and “Catholic Protestant service”)? What pre-Conciliar popes have the “NO” Catholics mocked or dismissed? What councils have we suggested the Church overturn?

No, Paramedicgirl, the bile is disporportionately on ya’ll’s side of the fence (not you personally). Sorry, that’s the way it factually is. So when you object to “traditionalists” being characterized with “Lord, I thank thee that I am not as these others,” well, perhaps you need to talk to them.

We should get back on topic.

 

[paramedicgirl]

With a couple of exceptions, NOT IN THESE THREADS! (and even then, they’re mightily provoked). They overwhelmingly are simply trying to defend A) the Pauline Mass; B) the Popes; C) the Council.

First,YOU keep saying NO Catholics, none of us took that title upon ourselves, as “traditionalists” took theirs. We’re just Catholics. When you say NO Catholics, to us it sounds like you’re saying “Barney Mass” Catholics or “Halloween Mass.” You make us sound like we’re devotees of liturgical dance and nuns waving bowls of incense around. NONE of the people who advocate for these things post on these forums, do they? Where are the Richard McBriens and the Richard Rohrs and the Joannie Chichesters, OSB? We’re all too conservative for them to hang around for more than a few posts, because we blow them out of the water, if not by the force and logic of good argument, then simply because they can’t find anyone to agree with them. But we’ve been lumped in with them, though these abuses concern us deeply, fill us with as much horror as they do you.

Second, in the two (that’s 2) examples you’ve cited, where did the poster in question actually mock the TLM? Can you answer that? Yes, both of them characterized “traditionalists,” but where did they mock the Mass? Could we make the same observation about “traditionalists?” Can’t we find innumerable instances where they’ve mocked the Mass, where they’ve heaped derision on that rite of the Holy Sacrifice (“Bogus Ordo” and “Catholic Protestant service”? What pre-Conciliar popes have the “NO” Catholics mocked or dismissed? What councils have we suggested the Church overturn?

No, Paramedicgirl, the bile is disporportionately on ya’ll’s side of the fence (not you personally). Sorry, that’s the way it factually is.

Of course you will see it that way. I wouldn’t expect anything else. BTW, I only say NO Catholics to distinguish which Mass they are attending, or attached to.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Of course you will see it that way. I wouldn’t expect anything else. BTW, I only say NO Catholics to distinguish which Mass they are attending, or attached to.

I edited my post.

With prayerful objectivity, ask yourself what you really believe to be the case.

Also, dear sister, you didn’t answer my question:

Who has mocked the Tridentine Mass?

 

[AJV]

Hey paramedicgirl and JKirkLVNV,

Don’t you think that stuff is way off-topic?

Maria

So getting back to the topic:

One thing I’m interested in is whether the ommission of *mysterium fidei *in the TLM itself would render the Consecration invalid. How does the omission change what is signified as required by De Defectibus?

 

[Uxor]

Hmmm. Christ sat with publicans and sinners because those who are sick are the ones in need of physicians; is it beneath your dignity to do the same?

At the top of every Traditional Catholicism page: “Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality.” This forum is for both Traditionalists and non-Traditionalists to discuss Traditionalism. If you don’t like that policy, you don’t have to participate on this forum.

Maria

Thank-you. I won’t be particpating here much longer I can assure you… It is not the forum (I do like the monitors, they are very nice)it is the uncharity of most nontraditionalists here not all, [Name edited by Moderator] though him and I disagree, he has always been very respectful and I see his spirituality, Christ within him…but other nontraditonalists that post one as a traditionalist has to put up with rudeness, arrogance, insults, name-calling etc. I’m not saying I’m perfect I’m not. I attended the NO Mass 30 years. I know what nontraditionalists think of traditionalists and their beliefs. And I was led to a traditionalist parish by God without ever reading a thing about Vatican II and what took place, so nobody is going to tell me different or that I’m ignorant, or wrong. It is the constant besiege here by nontraditonalists day in and day out that gets old. Where does that come from, surely not from God.

 

[bear06]

Yes, there is bashing on both sides but yes, also, is it more prevalent on one side. Also, I hate the use of Novus Ordo Catholic = NO Catholic. That said, I doubt that Paramedic girl is aware that the shortened version is a radical traditionalist pot shot. The moderator might just want to add it to the banned list or give me back my ***trad. I’ve long gotten over getting annoyed by being called a Novus Ordo Catholic. There are bigger things to get bent out of shape over. Besides, according to the quizzes I keep taking, it’s a misnomer because they say I’m a traditional Catholic.

 

[MTD]

Thank-you. I won’t be particpating here much longer I can assure you… It is not the forum (I do like the monitors, they are very nice)it is the uncharity of most nontraditionalists here not all, [Name edited by Moderator] though him and I disagree, he has always been very respectful and I see his spirituality, Christ within him…but other nontraditonalists that post one as a traditionalist has to put up with rudeness, arrogance, insults, name-calling etc.

Uxor, I don’t think I’ve been uncharitable to you. True love is willing to another his proper good; I don’t think I’ve been anything but objective, fair, and honest on this thread. Just because what I say isn’t comfortable doesn’t mean it’s not charitable.

I attended the NO Mass 30 years. I know what nontraditionalists think of traditionalists and their beliefs.

It’s best not to stereo-type all non-Traditionalists. The non-Traditionalists you once knew are not necessarily representative of all non-Traditionalists.

It is the constant besiege here by nontraditonalists day in and day out that gets old.

Not everyone is cut out for debate. I myself get overwhelmed even though I’m rather argumentive by nature. I’m sure we all do at times, but some get more that way than others. Perhaps you should just take a break from these forums for a week. You’ll probably be more refreshed afterwards.

Maria

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Besides, according to the quizzes I keep taking, it’s a misnomer because they say I’m a traditional Catholic.

Me, too.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Thank-you. I won’t be particpating here much longer I can assure you… It is not the forum (I do like the monitors, they are very nice)it is the uncharity of most nontraditionalists here not all, [Name edited by Moderator] though him and I disagree, he has always been very respectful and I see his spirituality, Christ within him…but other nontraditonalists that post one as a traditionalist has to put up with rudeness, arrogance, insults, name-calling etc. I’m not saying I’m perfect I’m not. I attended the NO Mass 30 years. I know what nontraditionalists think of traditionalists and their beliefs. And I was led to a traditionalist parish by God without ever reading a thing about Vatican II and what took place, so nobody is going to tell me different or that I’m ignorant, or wrong. It is the constant besiege here by nontraditonalists day in and day out that gets old. Where does that come from, surely not from God.

No one here has been rude or arrogant (well, not to you, at any rate) or insulted you or called you a name (indeed, YOU called others “liberals,” if you’ll recall).

But back to the topic. As a very tradition-minded Catholic, who believes all the teachings of the Church, I would like to know your source for asserting that Saint Peter used the Mysterium Fidei? Thanks.