Mystery of the Trinity question

[petras52]

One of the aspects of the Trinity is that the Trinity is three equal Persons sharing one nature. Yet in scripture, there are numerous passages where Jesus the Son is clearly subservient to God the Father. Any thoughts? thanks

 

[coolduude]

One of the aspects of the Trinity is that the Trinity is three equal Persons sharing one nature. Yet in scripture, there are numerous passages where Jesus the Son is clearly subservient to God the Father. Any thoughts? thanks

What examples do you have of this? Quotes would be great

 

[nickybr38]

One of the aspects of the Trinity is that the Trinity is three equal Persons sharing one nature. Yet in scripture, there are numerous passages where Jesus the Son is clearly subservient to God the Father. Any thoughts? thanks

Jesus was attempting to show us how to serve God properly and in doing so He gave us examples by being completely subservient to God? I think.

 

[PJM]

=petras52;6725199]One of the aspects of the Trinity is that the Trinity is three equal Persons sharing one nature. Yet in scripture, there are numerous passages where Jesus the Son is clearly subservient to God the Father. Any thoughts? thanks

***In every such occurence it is *JESUS the man,[Human nature] *** NOT Jesus the God,[Divine Nature] subjecting HIS HUMAN NATURE to the Fathers [and threfore His own Divine Nature.

Love and prayers, Thanks for asking.

Pat**

 

[lemondiesel]

What examples do you have of this? Quotes would be great

(John 17:3)
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

if you want to believe in the oneness of the trinity, view it more as one personality=god. Father is gods care for all of his creation, Jesus is God experiencing his creations and experiencing the evil of man, and the holy Spirit is his connection with everything.

 

[Thyme]

Jesus gave the perfect example of humility. What’s more humble than God becoming the Son of Man? It wasn’t just an act, which I believe is why Jesus sometimes emphasised the fact that he was from God.

We have the 10 commandments, which are part of God’s nature. God tells us that pride is a sin, so being humble must be part of His nature.

Sorry if this seems like a load or rubbish! It’s my opinion.

 

[lemondiesel]

The trinity explains how everything comes in threes. Everything physical is made of atoms, which is made up of protons, neutrons and electrons. The colors we see are based on the three primary colors, which in turn makes the next secondary colors.

The Trinity of God does not describe this god, because we simply can’t comprehend him rather it shows three components in order for us to be here.

sorry i didn’t really like my above post

 

[4Horsemen]

The Blessed Trinity is a mystery to be sure. St. Patrick explained the three Persons in one God using the shamrock. Another explanation I heard is the three substances that are integral to H2O, water: Water as liquid, solid (ice), and gas (vapor). One can even go further suggesting that the Father is like a solid state (the rocks on which are the 10 Commandments); the Son is similar to the liquid state (His blood spilling like water); the Holy Spirit is like the gaseous state (spreading God’s love around the world). Jesus told his apostles just before the Ascension to be His witnesses and spread the gospel to all corners of the earth.

 

[marymichael10]

One of the aspects of the Trinity is that the Trinity is three equal Persons sharing one nature. Yet in scripture, there are numerous passages where Jesus the Son is clearly subservient to God the Father. Any thoughts? thanks

I think you must be referring to such scriptures as “For the Father is greater than I”, and “no one knows, not angels, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

The Church has explained such verses as pertaining to Christ’s human nature. Our human nature is finite, and when Jesus, that is God the Son, assumed human nature, he took on our finite state in its entirety, while not ceasing to remain God the Son. So when He says, "the Father is greater than I", He is speaking in that assumed human state, in which He is a creature, a finite being of creation. But don’t be fooled as to thinking that it means He was not divine at any time of His earthly life. Jesus is numerically ONE person, with numerically TWO natures, divine and human. So He can at one point seem inferior by saying “no one knows, not the angels, nor the Son, but only the Father”, but at another time say “before Abraham came to be, I AM.” And, “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not listen, because you do not belong to God.”

I’d also like to add that within the Trinity, there are 3 persons, entirely equal and eternal, perfect and holy. But with succession comes a somewhat inferior attitude of the persons. God eternally begetts the Son, and the Holy Ghost proceeds from them eternally. Hence, it can be understood that God the Father constantly leads us with His Son with and in His Spirit (“No one knows the Father except the Son, and know one knows the Son except the Father, and anyone to whom He draws Him.”) And the Son always leads us, with and in His Spirit, to the Father (“Whoever hears Me hears the Father who sent me.”) And the Holy Spirit Himself always leads to the Father in and with the Son (“The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name–He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I have told you.”)
Each person in the Trinity constantly leads us toward another, that full holiness, perfection, and understanding of God can be complete.

Hope this cleared up any confusion. God Bless.

 

[nickybr38]

We are like the Trinity aren’t we?

Body. Mind and Soul. Three seperate parts that are united in one person?

 

[marymichael10]

We are like the Trinity aren’t we?

Body. Mind and Soul. Three seperate parts that are united in one person?

I agree, and have always thought of it like that. St. Augustine taught that the imprit of the Trinity is in each of us, hence why we were created in His image.

You could look at it in various ways:
Heart (Father), Mind (Son), Soul (Holy Ghost).

Not only that, I think the Trinity has left its imprint in creation and on science as well.

One atom is made of three particles: Protons, Electrons, Neutrons.
Water (one of the all important symbols in the Bible), though one substance, can exist in 3 ways: Ice, Liquid, and Evaporation.
There are 3 states of matter: Solid, Liquid, Gas.
The family, too, has the imprint of the Trinity. The Father begets the Son (Eternal Truth), and they produce the Holy Ghost (Eternal Love); a father and a mother produce offspring from love.

Not that any of this could be a sign of the imprint of the Trinity; just some interesting thoughts.

 

[nickybr38]

I agree, and have always thought of it like that. St. Augustine taught that the imprit of the Trinity is in each of us, hence why we were created in His image.

You could look at it in various ways:
Heart (Father), Mind (Son), Soul (Holy Ghost).

Not only that, I think the Trinity has left its imprint in creation and on science as well.

One atom is made of three particles: Protons, Electrons, Neutrons.
Water (one of the all important symbols in the Bible), though one substance, can exist in 3 ways: Ice, Liquid, and Evaporation.
There are 3 states of matter: Solid, Liquid, Gas.
The family, too, has the imprint of the Trinity. The Father begets the Son (Eternal Truth), and they produce the Holy Ghost (Eternal Love); a father and a mother produce offspring from love.

Not that any of this could be a sign of the imprint of the Trinity; just some interesting thoughts.

Me too. Whenever people struggle with the Trinity I just point that out to them. To me it’s always made perfect sense. This is how we are created in God’s image… or at least that’s what I always believed.

Three is definitely a great number!

 

[ERose]

One of the aspects of the Trinity is that the Trinity is three equal Persons sharing one nature. Yet in scripture, there are numerous passages where Jesus the Son is clearly subservient to God the Father. Any thoughts? thanks

Phil: 5 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. 8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. 9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: 10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: 11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

This is the best set of verses in the Scriptures to answer your question. To paraphrase what is being said in this group of verses: Even though Jesus is God, did not accept equality with His Father and was willing to become man and humble Himself even to death before His Father. But His Father exalted Him and gave Him a name even greater than His.

These actions are actions of pure love which God is. Jesus humbles Himself before His Father because Jesus loves His Father above all else. His Father lifts or exalts Jesus with a name that is above all other names including His because the Father loves His Son above all else. Thus the Father, Son and even the Holy Spirit are completely equal in Their divinity but by acts of Love between the members of the Trinity there is a humbling between each other because of that Love.

Hopefully you understand what I am meaning here.

 

[ERose]

The Blessed Trinity is a mystery to be sure. St. Patrick explained the three Persons in one God using the shamrock. Another explanation I heard is the three substances that are integral to H2O, water: Water as liquid, solid (ice), and gas (vapor). One can even go further suggesting that the Father is like a solid state (the rocks on which are the 10 Commandments); the Son is similar to the liquid state (His blood spilling like water); the Holy Spirit is like the gaseous state (spreading God’s love around the world). Jesus told his apostles just before the Ascension to be His witnesses and spread the gospel to all corners of the earth.

Nice twist on this analogy by the way.

The problem with this analogy is that it is referring to three modes or states of existence of the same substance. This is not the Orthodox view of the Trinity but rather a heresy referred to either Modalism or Sabellism. This view denies the three persons of the Trinity by stating that the Father, Son & the Holy Spirit are states of action or functions of God. For example: If God is the Creater then His the Father; if He the Redeemer then He is the Son and if He is the Sanctifier then He is the Spirit. But God is only one substance and one person. I know that this analogy is used very often on this board and among separated Christians to explain the Doctrine of the Trinity, but foundationally it is not a good analogy to used.

 

[Areopagite]

One of the aspects of the Trinity is that the Trinity is three equal Persons sharing one nature. Yet in scripture, there are numerous passages where Jesus the Son is clearly subservient to God the Father. Any thoughts? thanks

Well, to point out something that you may already know and may not answer your exact question, you can relate it analogously to a human father and a human son: a human son is subservient to a human father but they both share human nature. Now a human father and son don’t share the same human nature primarily (i.e. they are different humans), but they share the human nature secondarily (i.e. they are both humans … they both have human nature). Hope that helps.

(this “primary” and “secondary” terms to refer to that distinction is an Aristotelian way or talking … or Thomistic … or both … I can’t remember)

 

[Areopagite]

Sorry … maybe I should also add …

A human father and son, while they share the same nature, are such that the son is subservient to the father because the son has his origin in the father. This is also true with regard to the Trinity. The divine Son is (in traditional analogous terminology) generated (from all eternity) from the Father … making the Son subservient to the Father in some sense, just as a human son is generated from a human father and yet sharing in the father’s nature (secondarily, of course … though in the Trinity, I believe, it is also primarily).

If I spoke heretically (though I’m pretty darn sure I didn’t), please correct me … someone.

 

[WmJackP]

One of the aspects of the Trinity is that the Trinity is three equal Persons sharing one nature. Yet in scripture, there are numerous passages where Jesus the Son is clearly subservient to God the Father. Any thoughts? thanks

Well, the triune god concept is fascinating. My best guess is that, borrowing from the mystical religions of the Mediterranen world, God/man beliefs spread and, the new religion slowly fashioned itself into a much more user friendly and Romanized set of doctrines, ultimately embracing the idea of multible gods and sub-dieties (saints) and goddesses–chiefly Mary. Undoubtedly, Catholism owes a grat deal to Constantine who in the 4th century converted, and all the councils inspired by his conversion. The scriptures were written and re-written and re-written over the decades after the crucifixion. I think the earliest copies are dated sometime about the time of Constantine. My guess is a lot of the doctrinal stuff got invented, added, morphed, and, edited during translation sufficiently to firm up the triune God concept.

 

[davidv]

Well, the triune god concept is fascinating. My best guess is that, borrowing from the mystical religions of the Mediterranen world, God/man beliefs spread and, the new religion slowly fashioned itself into a much more user friendly and Romanized set of doctrines, ultimately embracing the idea of multible gods and sub-dieties (saints) and goddesses–chiefly Mary. Undoubtedly, Catholism owes a grat deal to Constantine who in the 4th century converted, and all the councils inspired by his conversion. The scriptures were written and re-written and re-written over the decades after the crucifixion. I think the earliest copies are dated sometime about the time of Constantine. My guess is a lot of the doctrinal stuff got invented, added, morphed, and, edited during translation sufficiently to firm up the triune God concept.

None of this remotely resembles the Catholism I know. Sounds like a strawman fallacy to me.

 

[WmJackP]

None of this remotely resembles the Catholism I know. Sounds like a strawman fallacy to me.

My response was not intended to conform to the Catholicism you know.
I thought it was a straight question about the origin of the trinity, so I gave the questioner a straight answer.Not liking a rendition of history isn’t a valid rationale for the accusation of spurious argument. So, with all due respect, your use of the term “stawman fallacy” doesn’t confom to any definition I know. …

 

[davidv]

My response was not intended to conform to the Catholicism you know.
I thought it was a straight question about the origin of the trinity, so I gave the questioner a straight answer.Not liking a rendition of history isn’t a valid rationale for the accusation of spurious argument. So, with all due respect, your use of the term “stawman fallacy” doesn’t confom to any definition I know. …

OK, to be more explicit then. You said:

My guess is a lot of the doctrinal stuff got invented, added, morphed, and, edited during translation sufficiently to firm up the triune God concept

This is pure fantacy and in no way represents Scripture. Thus strawman applies.