Mystical experiences?

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cheddarsox:
Well, having left the church, I am no longer a candidate for sainthood. I am reminded of that by well meaning folk with some regularity. And I do not mean sainthood with a capitol S.

And yet the divine has not abandoned me. And that seems to be the greatest of all the heresies I believe. That even while I am yet “lost” that the divine has not fled from me.

cheddar
Another Catholic teaching is that God is with non-Catholics too if through no fault of their own they don’t know the truths of the Faith or through a sincere act of conscience leave the Faith.

This is one of my areas of confusion. I don’t get it. Maybe one of the big fat brains can chime in and explain this question with this specific real world example.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
What good does it do that we have the Holy Spirit within us if we do not strive to achieve Sainthood through our own personal talents and the devotions we like, in addition to the sacraments?

Some Catholics act like they’re walking on eggshells just to talk about their faith, for fear they might inadvertently say something that the Vatican wouldn’t back them up on. To me that discourages true seeking of truth, especially when combined with the desire never to make a fool out of yourself when someone “smarter” might be watching.

We are like animals with blinders, being told not to look to the side lest we stray. Well guess what? We’ve strayed and those same blinders are preventing us from seeing and helping each other back to the path. We think they are going to train us to run a maize like a rat and reward with cheese or punish with a shock, and that’s how we should learn our faith.

Alan
Amen brother! I spent years going to mass everyday and yet developed the ability to completely hide my devotion from my family and friends when I could have been giving witness to the One True Faith.
 
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DarinHamel:
Another Catholic teaching is that God is with non-Catholics too if through no fault of their own they don’t know the truths of the Faith or through a sincere act of conscience leave the Faith.

This is one of my areas of confusion. I don’t get it. Maybe one of the big fat brains can chime in and explain this question with this specific real world example.
cheddarsox is a “specific real world example.” Her posts tell her story.

Mike
 
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Joysong:
Dear Darin,

Safety, though, consists in trusting God, your Beloved, and in turning your mind beyond the experience into pure faith, as St. John teaches - this is for all supernatural phenomena except for contemplation.

🙂 Carole
Dear Darin

In the time I have been a member on this forum in matters of spirituality, prayer, contemplation and mysticism I have held Carole’s advice as second to non in such things and I would really and truly heed her advice as quoted above in bold. This does not mean that the experiences are of no value, but your faith should not be central to experiences, but rather to the revealed truth of God in Christ Jesus by Sacred Scripture and Catholic Tradition.

I agree with what she says 100% here.

Some mystical experiences are allowed to happen by God not purely that they may be understood but to confect to the soul change and increase in grace, this is the hidden work of God and can manifest in visions, mystical experiences whether ‘enjoyable’ or not, but always to bring about or to increase sanctity of soul.

Consider this Darin, if everyone with an experience was allowed to teach in the Church on such matters, there would more than likely be severe exposure of the faithful to error. This has to be dealt with prudently by the Church and this does not mean that the Church does not believe you, it means that they, in ALL cases, must be prudent, this is afterall the truth of God they are dealing with, no small matter and must be highly protected.

Continue in faith, humbly and in great obedience and if it is God’s Will, His Will will be done. You really must trust in the One who allowed you to experience what you have experienced. Rashness, disobedience, pride and imprudent actions are not the work of God.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Darin,

Having read your struggles here, as well as your comments about “doing a St Francis” I am more convinced than I was before that you may be a current Francis with a call to turn the Church upside down again. The combination of these experiences with your single-minded devotion to God as *the One * just say to me that you are in a place that not many people in all history are going to “understand.”

As Joysong notes, John of the Cross is probably one of the few that would really understand where you are, and while his works may not speak to your specific situation, it is indeed going to be in your willingness to not know while you wait–to not have the answers–that whatever purification is needed for this journey of yours in going to come.

My mystical experiences have been few, but the veil has parted enough for me to know that there is much more on the other side to be revealed for those who are truly open to it, and ready to suffer to be able to know it. I would expect that what you are experiencing may be your purgatory here on earth in preparation for you to be able to act in a way for God that few have been called to.

I don’t envy you this calling at all, but my prayers are definitely with you. You seem prepared to do whatever it takes, even while experiencing what has to be normal anxiety. Even Jesus prayed that the cup could be taken from him.

Be strong friend. God will provide your “daily bread.”
 
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DarinHamel:
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I started out in the seminary praying and meditating four or more hours a day when I began having out of body experiences. Nobody knew what was going on and the environment was hostile so I left.

After seven years of spontaneous out of body experiences I began the CLOUD OF UNKNOWING type of prayer and they ended when I had a vision of the unifying uncreated light where I saw, knew and was everything. Once again nobody has a clue what that was.
d. :confused:
if you are discerning a vocation, and if your spiritual life has come to a stage where you are reading the Cloud of Unknowing (bearing in mind the author’s cautions at the beginning of the book) you should be under competent spiritual direction. once you find a director you should heed his advice and counsel, and not go searching here and there. Thomas Dubay’s Authenticity and also Spiritual Direction are excellent guides in discerning such experiences and in finding a good director. Fr. Groeschel’s books on discernment is also very good, esp Spiritual Passages, which explains the stages of the spiritual life on the road to infused contemplation, and the type of mystical experiences that may come during prayer. Both these authors distill the wisdom of the classic spiritual writers for moderns.
 
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springbreeze:
Some mystical experiences are allowed to happen by God not purely that they may be understood but to confect to the soul change and increase in grace, this is the hidden work of God and can manifest in visions, mystical experiences whether ‘enjoyable’ or not, but always to bring about or to increase sanctity of soul.

Consider this Darin, if everyone with an experience was allowed to teach in the Church on such matters, there would more than likely be severe exposure of the faithful to error. This has to be dealt with prudently by the Church and this does not mean that the Church does not believe you, it means that they, in ALL cases, must be prudent, this is afterall the truth of God they are dealing with, no small matter and must be highly protected.
It isn’t so much that we wish to teach. (If I’m not speaking for Darin as well then please Lord correct me) It is that we wish to break barriers that bind us to the limitations of our cognitive abilities, which by themselves are unable to grasp God, but are plenty able to grasp images of God, conjured by intellectual considerations. We have seen beyond the limits of intellectual study of faith, but have no words to express it because it is treated as a ForbiddenTopic.

It is my belief that Catholics in general are taught from an early age to Fear Greatly whenever they speak something that may not be “mainstream.” Thus, I believe most are so suppressed that they are spiritually dead, simply walking robots trying to be obedient without admitting to anything their God-given brain brings to their consciousness that may be perceived as out of the ordinary.

In every other field of academic endeavor, the best teachers are the ones who help their students discover the truth behind their own thoughts if there is any, or to help them explain them. In contrast, many – not all – teachers of the Catholic faith that my own children have had, become extremely defensive when asked certain questions. They learn quickly to Be Quiet and Sit Up Straight and act pious, or face negative consequences.

Questions are seen as challenges rather than requests for facts, and not only challenges but hostile challenges rather than intellectual debate. A presumed teacher should be up to being challenged by a student, unless the teacher is afraid it is a test beyond the teacher’s ability to endure. Luckily I have trained my kids how to identify the way their teachers want to respond, and if they decide to be honest with their opinions, to do so with my blessing but with my warning they are On Their Own.

What I have found in these forums, especially now that there is hardly any of the vitriole it seemed like we used to have (unless it’s all in my perception) is that the combination of unity of Catholicism and diversity of experience usually ends up with a person getting some really good answers to questions, no matter how silly they seem especially at first.

My point, if I have one, is that I think debate and discussion of individual revelations is healthy, and does not threaten the teachings of the Church unless they are presented as teachings of the Church. Speculation is a way to expand our thinking beyond our present experiences, which can be a Good Thing if we are to be guided by faith in things beyond our understanding.

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
It isn’t so much that we wish to teach. (If I’m not speaking for Darin as well then please Lord correct me) It is that we wish to break barriers that bind us to the limitations of our cognitive abilities, which by themselves are unable to grasp God, but are plenty able to grasp images of God, conjured by intellectual considerations. We have seen beyond the limits of intellectual study of faith, but have no words to express it because it is treated as a ForbiddenTopic.

It is my belief that Catholics in general are taught from an early age to Fear Greatly whenever they speak something that may not be “mainstream.” Thus, I believe most are so suppressed that they are spiritually dead, simply walking robots trying to be obedient without admitting to anything their God-given brain brings to their consciousness that may be perceived as out of the ordinary.

In every other field of academic endeavor, the best teachers are the ones who help their students discover the truth behind their own thoughts if there is any, or to help them explain them. In contrast, many – not all – teachers of the Catholic faith that my own children have had, become extremely defensive when asked certain questions. They learn quickly to Be Quiet and Sit Up Straight and act pious, or face negative consequences.

Questions are seen as challenges rather than requests for facts, and not only challenges but hostile challenges rather than intellectual debate. A presumed teacher should be up to being challenged by a student, unless the teacher is afraid it is a test beyond the teacher’s ability to endure. Luckily I have trained my kids how to identify the way their teachers want to respond, and if they decide to be honest with their opinions, to do so with my blessing but with my warning they are On Their Own.

What I have found in these forums, especially now that there is hardly any of the vitriole it seemed like we used to have (unless it’s all in my perception) is that the combination of unity of Catholicism and diversity of experience usually ends up with a person getting some really good answers to questions, no matter how silly they seem especially at first.

My point, if I have one, is that I think debate and discussion of individual revelations is healthy, and does not threaten the teachings of the Church unless they are presented as teachings of the Church. Speculation is a way to expand our thinking beyond our present experiences, which can be a Good Thing if we are to be guided by faith in things beyond our understanding.

Alan
Dear Alan

I see what you are saying and there is nothing saying you cannot privately and not in a public professed way, discuss your walk with Christ Jesus among your friends and close confidents, having said that you will have to prudently weigh up whether that is necessary and the pros and cons of doing so bearing all the while in mind that you may well be right and you may well be wrong and above and beyond that that in such discussions you are dealing with other people’s souls, no trifling matter either!

Prudence for me, if I ever experienced such things would say, ‘keep you mouth shut, Teresa’ because no-one’s salvation depends on experiences granted to any one individual, but it may well be their damnation!:rotfl:

I may well in saying all of this come across as a brain-washed robot, if you knew me personally you’d know I’m a friend of James Dean (rebel without a cause!😃 ).

It still remains what is public revelation is for all and they are bound by it and what is personal revelation is for purely one and no-one else is bound by it.

God Bless you Alan and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Hello Darin, may the Holy Spirit guide you in all that you do!

Would you mind telling us what kind of meditation you practise?
Do you deliberately try to achieve a state of altered consciousness?
What kind of “bad things” have happened to you? Do you think some of these experiences haven’t come from God?

Could you tell us something about the “Cloud of Unknowing prayer”?

To be honest I’d be a little concerned about certain kinds of meditation. I used to be a member of the “Self-realization Fellowship” founded by P. Yogananda and after I was converted in Lourdes, I soon realized the error of my ways!

God bless,
Noel.
 
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nkelly:
Hello Darin, may the Holy Spirit guide you in all that you do!

Would you mind telling us what kind of meditation you practise?
Do you deliberately try to achieve a state of altered consciousness?
What kind of “bad things” have happened to you? Do you think some of these experiences haven’t come from God?

Could you tell us something about the “Cloud of Unknowing prayer”?

To be honest I’d be a little concerned about certain kinds of meditation. I used to be a member of the “Self-realization Fellowship” founded by P. Yogananda and after I was converted in Lourdes, I soon realized the error of my ways!

God bless,
Noel.
I haven’t had a “mystical experience” in years thank goodness. My director says I am coming out of the Dark Night of the Soul which is where most of them stop. I never try to alter my consciousness. I do try to be more mindful in my everyday stuff. I think simple mindfulness is biggest open secret ever for positive mental health.

I think nearly every negative experience I had was psychological in origin. All I do nowadays is mostly the Rosary four times a day. It takes me about an hour for one set of mysteries. I am trying to get into the habit of the Divine office.

As for the CLOUD OF UNKNOWING. There are other thread debating that topic as we speak. And rather than being flamed for my opinion of it, please look up those. Sorry.
 
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springbreeze:
It still remains what is public revelation is for all and they are bound by it and what is personal revelation is for purely one and no-one else is bound by it.
If the only place we “disagree” is that no person is bound by anothers’ revelation, then we don’t.

If you’re saying we shouldn’t discuss these matters in public, than that’s a different discussion. I guarantee it took me a long time to open up, but now that I have I believe that many of the others who have opened up and discussed personal feelings, mental issues and mystical experiences, have experienced healing. Has this scared people away from the Catholic faith led them into falsehood? I don’t know but I haven’t seen any signs of it – you just don’t know on a public forum. What is the detrimental effect of sharing personal experiences, as long as we are not claiming to speak for the Church?

As far as discussing it with loved ones and friends, except for my own family, I know very few people who are as obsessed with the truth as myself, and able to discuss these matters at all, much less intelligently. This is a point the OP made. Most priests are not ready to handle this sort of information. This forum, IMO, is a great place to bring those of us who seem so few and scattered together, so at least we can affirm each others’ sanity and help each other calm anxiety. It might also reveal that for every one of us who speaks up, there are hundreds more who have wished to ask questions but were afraid to.

You have a point, though, that if we had perfect faith we need not say anything at all. If I think that God “needs” me to type one more word on this forum or speak another word, then I am presuming. I might be dead before I click on “submit” and God and the Church will live on. I just want to make myself available for God to use as a tool as long as I’m around, and have found ways to have joy and peace while doing so.

Now that I’m all happy and stuff spiritually for the moment, all I need is an income stream. I think I’m almost ready psychologically, after these last two very extreme weeks, (pending further spritual testing I’m sure :eek: ), to do the unthinkable if it becomes necessary. That would be to go get a job.

Alan
 
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DarinHamel:
As for the CLOUD OF UNKNOWING. There are other thread debating that topic as we speak. And rather than being flamed for my opinion of it, please look up those. Sorry.
That sounds like a wiser response than I normally think of.

Alan
 
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puzzleannie:
if you are discerning a vocation, and if your spiritual life has come to a stage where you are reading the Cloud of Unknowing (bearing in mind the author’s cautions at the beginning of the book) you should be under competent spiritual direction. once you find a director you should heed his advice and counsel, and not go searching here and there. Thomas Dubay’s Authenticity and also Spiritual Direction are excellent guides in discerning such experiences and in finding a good director. Fr. Groeschel’s books on discernment is also very good, esp Spiritual Passages, which explains the stages of the spiritual life on the road to infused contemplation, and the type of mystical experiences that may come during prayer. Both these authors distill the wisdom of the classic spiritual writers for moderns.
I’m glad someone here recommended Fr. Groeschel. He wrote a book, A Still Small Voice, helping people to discern the source of these experiences. More often than not, these things are demonic.
 
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miguel:
I’m glad someone here recommended Fr. Groeschel. He wrote a book, A Still Small Voice, helping people to discern the source of these experiences. More often than not, these things are demonic.
Everything Fr Groeschel writes is great. A STILL SMALL VOICE is no exception. Very helpful, I agree.
 
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