Myth of evolution and new drug discovery

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As I read research papers, I find that the reduction of the human being to physical substance alone is the unmentioned foundation for the description and/or the interpretation of research.

In the beginning of “Molecular Genetics of Speciation and Human Origins”, Francisco Ayala refers to human evolution. The unsuspecting reader could easily assume that Ayala is referring to humans as we know them. Toward the end, Ayala defines what he means by humans. He begins the section “Theories of Human Origins” with “The origin of anatomically modern humans, Homo sapiens sapiens, occurred around 200,000 years B.P.” He also refers to other theories regarding “the emergence of anatomically modern traits…” In other words, When Ayala refers to the evolution from H. erectus to archaic H. Sapiens, and later to anatomically modern humans, he is referring to material aspects only and not to the fully complete human person.

This raises the serious question: What is the point of origin of the fully complete human being. Since the data supporting large populations refer to the genomic structure leading to the anatomically modern humans, there is good reason to say that the paper is non-informative about the point of origin of the fully complete human being. Consequently, in my humble opinion, a statement that “no severe population bottleneck has occurred in human evolution” applies only to the human anatomy and not to the true nature of the human species; consequently, two sole parents of the human species is a real possibility.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for knowledge is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
I’ve noted some of your recent posts. You have been one busy lady. I think the difficulty might lie in the area of the concepts of species and human being.

Ayala’s concept of even modern humans, is inadequate in my view, since he considers human consciousness to an epiphenomenon.

We cannot determine exactly when hominisation occurred since it is not something open to scientific analysis.

Working from an essential definition of man as a rational animal, there is scientific evidence, i.e. from the kinds of tools found, etc. suggesting that true rationality pre-existed Homo sapiens sapiens. Hypothetically, we may be looking at the prospect of rational beings existing one and half to two million years BP. Where one draws the historical line is still open to argument. It is still a question in my mind, too.

“Species” is currently understood in the context of populations, and I believe population thinking assumes certain things about what a human is and the idea that a population acquires these characteristics not all at once.

I cannot discuss the genetic interpretation of evidence in any detail since I lack enough background to do so. But the notion of “species” still has problems, a fact once snidely conceded by the eminent Ernst Mayr.
 
I’ve noted some of your recent posts. You have been one busy lady. I think the difficulty might lie in the area of the concepts of species and human being.
Thank you for your comments. This is my first attempt to put my gut instincts into print. Thus, I need the feedback. I am aware of the use of “populations” and do need to understand this. At this point, I like the older description of the human species being different in kind from an animal species. However, I never write in stone.
Ayala’s concept of even modern humans, is inadequate in my view, since he considers human consciousness to an epiphenomenon.
I’ve noticed that the concept of epiphenomenon is common.
We cannot determine exactly when hominisation occurred since it is not something open to scientific analysis.
If someone could do a time line, it would be possible to determine a time frame for favorable conditions which would make it possible for two fully complete humans to live and procreate.
Working from an essential definition of man as a rational animal, there is scientific evidence, i.e. from the kinds of tools found, etc. suggesting that true rationality pre-existed Homo sapiens sapiens.
I’ve seen some pictures of those first tools. I can imagine a man asking where the electric cord was! 😉
Seriously, I would have to see the “scientific evidence” you mentioned. I am very comfortable with the concept of sentience in animals so true rationality would need quite a bit of evidence.
“Species” is currently understood in the context of populations, and I believe population thinking assumes certain things about what a human is and the idea that a population acquires these characteristics not all at once.
This sounds like the philosophy of relativism. Maybe not. Regardless of how “species” is understood or what the problems are, the key issue is that the human person is not a member of the brute animal kingdom.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is sacred.
 
Ed, some of the ID folks in this thread have argued from contradictory positions. You cannot have things both ways. For example, if an evolutionist says such things as an Unconscious Watchmaker created human beings and the sense is that physical processes are irreducibly random, that there is no God or divine providence of creation, then he is making statements that are beyond the scope of the natural sciences.

I have repeatedly said that such statements as these involve a philosophical naturalism. But when I have stated that science should observe a methodological naturalism, I get bombarded in protest with quotes from Einstein, Newton, and maybe Mickey Mouse next time…

This requires a bit more explanation. When I have objected to ID theory as involving philosophical and theological implications, and as such going beyond methodological naturalism I have been told by certain ID supporters on CAF, I don’t remember all the names, that methodological naturalism is a modern invention and science was not always practiced that way.

Further, Behe has found it necessary to redefine science in such a way as to include astrology as a science, false though it may be. Philip Johnson has promoted his own revision of the definition of natural science to include God within the scope of the natural sciences.

If you think natural science should not necessarily observe methodological naturalism, then you can’t blame evolutionists for taking their ideology as science. You can only say, with any kind of consistency, that you object to their version of natural evolutionary science, rather than just their ideology which they have confused for science.

I am not sure if you catch the distinctions, so I will ask the following question:

Do you think scientists, as natural scientists, should observe methodological naturalism?
Ed, where did you go? Am I detecting a pattern now of you disappearing from CAF whenever I ask difficult questions, or, is it just coincidence?
 
As I read research papers, I find that the reduction of the human being to physical substance alone is the unmentioned foundation for the description and/or the interpretation of research.

In the beginning of “Molecular Genetics of Speciation and Human Origins”, Francisco Ayala refers to human evolution. The unsuspecting reader could easily assume that Ayala is referring to humans as we know them. Toward the end, Ayala defines what he means by humans. He begins the section “Theories of Human Origins” with “The origin of anatomically modern humans, Homo sapiens sapiens, occurred around 200,000 years B.P.” He also refers to other theories regarding “the emergence of anatomically modern traits…” In other words, When Ayala refers to the evolution from H. erectus to archaic H. Sapiens, and later to anatomically modern humans, he is referring to physical aspects only and not to the fully complete human person.

This raises the serious question: What is the point of origin of the fully complete human being. Since the data supporting large populations refer to the genomic structure leading to the anatomically modern humans, there is good reason to say that the paper is non-informative about the point of origin of the fully complete human being. Consequently, in my humble opinion, a statement that “no severe population bottleneck has occurred in human evolution” applies only to the human anatomy and not to the true nature of the human species; consequently, two sole parents of the human species is a real possibility.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for knowledge is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
I’m going to weigh in on this topic - though feel that the posts I’ve read are way beyond my own knowledge - I remember a discussion that we had once with a priest who said that if God chose to create to fully humans from dust of course He could, if He chose to put evolution into motion and at one point infused man & woman with a soul these would be the first ‘people’… and since we are created to know and love God… I think that moment could be along the time line when man became conscious of this relationship. The truth of the matter is that God created us… say it with me, to know and love Him in this life and to be happy with Him forever in the next. 🙂
 
Thank you for your comments. This is my first attempt to put my gut instincts into print. Thus, I need the feedback. I am aware of the use of “populations” and do need to understand this. At this point, I like the older description of the human species being different in kind from an animal species. However, I never write in stone.
Yeah, one needs to understand population thinking to address the current topic in an informed manner. Personally, I found Ernst Mayr to write clearly on species and populations.

Darwin held that the mind of man differs in degree from the mind of higher animals and anthropoid apes. A number of prominent neo-Darwinians hold that the mind of man differs in kind. However, their difference in kind is a superficial difference in kind and not a radical difference in kind. That is, these neo-Darwinians believe there is an underlying continuum between man an higher animals that reaches a threshold at which human consciousness arises.

The threshold refers basically to the sophistication of brain development, which neo-Darwinians assume to be a sufficient condition for the human mind.

To the contrary, I maintain that brain development and a relative integrity of the brain is only a necessary condition for the human intellect, but not sufficient in itself.
I’ve noticed that the concept of epiphenomenon is common.
It is a common materialist philosophical explanation of human psychic activity.
If someone could do a time line, it would be possible to determine a time frame for favorable conditions which would make it possible for two fully complete humans to live and procreate.
If these primal humans were Assyrians, like myself, they could procreate under any conceivable conditions.
I’ve seen some pictures of those first tools. I can imagine a man asking where the electric cord was! 😉
Seriously, I would have to see the “scientific evidence” you mentioned. I am very comfortable with the concept of sentience in animals so true rationality would need quite a bit of evidence.
It really takes a close look at the evidence, and a lot of thought. Sentient knowledge gets fairly sophisticated in higher animals, who can use objects as tools. Evidence of rational thought needs to be seen in the kind of primitive tools made, how they were supposedly made, and the conditions under which they were found. There are animal bones with the markings of tools used to strip the meat and so on. What does this imply. It’s all fascinating. What level of cognitive ability is required to shape a stone with a particular angel for a particular use?
This sounds like the philosophy of relativism. Maybe not. Regardless of how “species” is understood or what the problems are, the key issue is that the human person is not a member of the brute animal kingdom.
Darwin’s concept of the biological continuum relieves man of being above the animal kingdom in sense of his mind no longer being radically different in kind. We can all be brute animals now, instead of the traditional *rational *animal. That was the Darwinian revolution. Yippee kay yeh!

In the Darwinian continuum, species disappears into the twilight of a gray flux. The basis for the distinctions the human mind makes has disappeared. The idea of species as just being well defined variations seems to be supported by the idea of genetic swamping. However, I think genetic swamping is capable of a better interpretation than the one given to it by evolutionists.

We can’t talk specifically about man being other than a brute animal unless we deal with the species problem. Darwin wrestled with the notion of species and he came up with an incredible number of definitions, but the notion was made meaningless by his particular theory of the biological continuum.

Louis Agassiz took aim at this problem soon after the publication of the Origin of Species. Agassiz said, “If species do not exist at all, as the supporters of the transmutation theory maintain, how can they vary? And if individuals alone exist, how can the differences which may be observed among them prove the variability of species?” (L. Agassiz, “On the Origin of Species,” *American Journal of Science and Arts, *30 (July 1860), p. 143).

Scientists use a practical or usable definition of species involving reproductive isolation, but this does not address the genuine and persistent problem voiced by Agassiz. It’s not that Agassiz had deep metaphysical insight, but the problem centers around the existence of universals versus the nominalist and often materialist view of reality.

The scientific theory of evolution has its philosophical and theological implications that need to be properly explained. It is an over-extension of biological evolution theory to presume that it can be applied to man in the same way that it is applied to other animals and plants.

Such a phenomena is common in the history of intellectual culture. Someone gains some truth and insight and then overextends the insight to cover more of reality than it is capable of. Perhaps another good example is Newtonian mechanics or physics which does not do as well on the cosmological level as it does on the terrestrial.
 
I’m going to weigh in on this topic - though feel that the posts I’ve read are way beyond my own knowledge - I remember a discussion that we had once with a priest who said that if God chose to create to fully humans from dust of course He could, if He chose to put evolution into motion and at one point infused man & woman with a soul these would be the first ‘people’… and since we are created to know and love God… I think that moment could be along the time line when man became conscious of this relationship. The truth of the matter is that God created us… say it with me, to know and love Him in this life and to be happy with Him forever in the next. 🙂
When man became conscious of his relationship with God would be an excellent point along the time line. Thank you so much. This would be the point of true rationality.

I have often wondered when man started writing. Does anyone know?

Blessings,
granny

All human beings are worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
 
I’m going to weigh in on this topic - though feel that the posts I’ve read are way beyond my own knowledge - I remember a discussion that we had once with a priest who said that if God chose to create to fully humans from dust of course He could, if He chose to put evolution into motion and at one point infused man & woman with a soul these would be the first ‘people’… and since we are created to know and love God… I think that moment could be along the time line when man became conscious of this relationship. The truth of the matter is that God created us… say it with me, to know and love Him in this life and to be happy with Him forever in the next. 🙂
Welcome to Hell. 😃

Your priest is basically right, which is good to see. However, the expression “infused man & woman with a soul” is not very accurate. As Catholics we maintain, of course, that God creates the human soul directly. But as concerns the first humans, or anyone other humans, the soul is not “infused” into a body. That is, the presence of the human soul is what accounts for the existence of a living human body. Hence, there can be no human body first, which is then infused with a soul.

Hope I didn’t scare you away with that tid bit about the soul.
 
When man became conscious of his relationship with God would be an excellent point along the time line. Thank you so much. This would be the point of true rationality.

I have often wondered when man started writing. Does anyone know?

Blessings,
granny

All human beings are worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
Man first starting writing when he had to keep track of who owed him what.😃

You can Google for info on the earliest cuneiform tablets. However, clay tablets can survive time, whereas other, softer materials, if they were used earlier anywhere than clay tablets, would not survive.

Art is a better indicator of early culture, because artifacts of various sorts, including cave paintings may pre-date evidence for writing. And I would assume that art itself is a much earlier form of communication than is writing.
 
When man became conscious of his relationship with God would be an excellent point along the time line. Thank you so much. This would be the point of true rationality.
This is obviously true, since as we know from theology, the very first man and woman had an intimate relationship with God.

An implication of this fact is that, contrary to what many cultural anthropologists maintain, monotheism actually predates polytheism.
 
Consequently, in my humble opinion, a statement that “no severe population bottleneck has occurred in human evolution” applies only to the human anatomy and not to the true nature of the human species; consequently, two sole parents of the human species is a real possibility.Blessings,granny
Granny, there is no genetic evidence that the human population has ever passed through a genetic bottleneck as severely constricted as one breeding pair. It is sheer sophistry to try to salvage your literal interpretation of the Adam and Eve story by distinguishing between human anatomy and “the true nature of the human species.” “Adam and Eve” are theologically symbolic of all of humanity.

StAnastasia
 
Granny, there is no genetic evidence that the human population has ever passed through a genetic bottleneck as severely constricted as one breeding pair. It is sheer sophistry to try to salvage your literal interpretation of the Adam and Eve story by distinguishing between human anatomy and “the true nature of the human species.” “Adam and Eve” are theologically symbolic of all of humanity.

StAnastasia
We know about the genetic evidence and the bottleneck. However, (and I am speaking more for myself and not Granny), I am holding out for a literal primal pair of human parents, despite what the current interpretation is of the genetic evidence.

On this particular issue I cannot argue about the genetic evidence in any way to support my view, because I do not know advanced genetics. My position is based on an extra-scientific view. Adam and Eve are inarguably more than just symbolic of all humanity in the Judeo-Christian tradition. They are also, in this same tradition, representative of the first pair of human parents from which all humans are descended.

And so we explore the discrepancy on various levels between our beliefs and what scientists are currently saying about the genetic evidence.

If Granny is like me, she ain’t about to budge on this issue.
 
Dear Grannymh, Itinerant1 and StAnastasia,

Regarding the qualitative differences in cognitive abilities (which are real, substantial and profound) between human beings and other animals, here is a post of mine on Uncommon Descent which summarizes what I have found in the recent scientific literature:

uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ic-all-the-way-down-the-grand-human-evolutionary-discontinuity-and-probabilistic-resources/#comment-341275

Regarding the date of the emergence of reason in human beings, I have posted on this subject at Uncommon Descent. The post is here, and you might find it interesting:

uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ic-all-the-way-down-the-grand-human-evolutionary-discontinuity-and-probabilistic-resources/#comment-341257

To cut a long story short, the two most likely dates for the emergence of human intelligence appear to be 2 million years ago (when Homo ergaster / Homo erectus first appeared - there was a cultural “leap forward” shortly afterwards, around 1.6 million years ago) and 600,000 years ago (when Homo heidelbergensis appeared, and when another leap forward occurred). I should add that some authorities consider Homo erectus and Homo sapiens to belong to the same species anyway. Genetically, it’s quite possible that they could have interbred. As far as the number of chromosomes is concerned, this would probably not have been a problem either, since according to recent research, the ancestors of modern human beings underwent a change from 48 to 46 chromosomes per body cell, somewhere between 740,000 and 3,000,000 years ago - i.e. probably around the time when Homo erectus emerged, give or take. (Reference: Biased clustered substitutions in the human genome: The footprints of male-driven biased gene conversion by Timothy R. Dreszer, Gregory D. Wall, David Haussler and Katherine S. Pollard. In Genome Research 2007. 17: 1420-1430. Web address: genome.cshlp.org/content/17/10/1420.full .)

Interestingly, Homo erectus makes a rather abrupt appearance in the fossil record - so much so that researchers in Nature magazine have written:

"Early forms of erectus] mar[k] such a radical departure from previous forms of Homo (such as H. habilis) in its height, reduced sexual dimorphism, long limbs and modern body proportions that it is hard at present to identify its immediate ancestry in east Africa. Not for nothing has it been described as a hominin “without an ancestor, without a clear past”
(Robin Dennell & Wil Roebroeks, “An Asian perspective on early human dispersal from Africa,” Nature, Vol 438:1099-1104 (Dec. 22/29, 2005).

It is now considered unlikely that Homo habilis was ancestral to Homo erectus.
See evolutionnews.org/2007/08/paleoanthropologists_disown_ho.html

Articles on Homo ergaster & Homo erectus can be found here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_ergaster
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_ergaster
archaeologyinfo.com/homoergaster.htm
archaeologyinfo.com/homoerectus.htm

Details of a Neanderthal flute can be found here:
zrc-sazu.si/www/iza/piscal.html

As regards Adam and Eve, I have some interesting news. I contacted Jonathan Wells (an ID proponent who has a Ph.D. in religious studies and a Ph.D. in Molecular and Cell Biology from UC Berkeley), and he sent me an email from which I’ll quote a brief extract:

“Note that I am not claiming that the biological/paleontological evidence SUPPORTS monogenism – only that the evidence does not rule it out.”

Wells is a biologist with a background in genetics. He should know what he’s talking about if he says that monogenism is possible. It sounds to me, then, as if Ayala is being too dogmatic in his exclusion of the possibility of an original couple. I should add, however, that the further back we go in time, the easier it gets to postulate a relatively small genetic bottleneck - and there is some evidence of one, 2 million years ago. So I’d say that sounds a lot better than 200,000 years ago, as a time for Adam and Eve.

I hope that helps.

Best wishes,

Vincent Torley
 
Hi again everyone,

Just thought I’d correct something which I think I mentioned in one of my Uncommon Descent posts (see above) relating to the earliest evidence of religion in the fossil record. Apparently the Paleolithic site of Bilzingsleben, dating to 370,000 years ago, which contains bones that have been interpreted as evidence for a bear cult, proves a lot less than early excavators thought:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilzingsleben_(Paleolithic_site

There may, however, be evidence of a burial rite.

For a very different view of Blizingsleben and what it indicates, see this site by John Feliks:

www-personal.umich.edu/~feliks/graphics-of-bilzingsleben/index.html

Feliks also believes that Homo erectus was quite smart.

Best wishes,

Vincent Torley
 
Granny, there is no genetic evidence that the human population has ever passed through a genetic bottleneck as severely constricted as one breeding pair. It is sheer sophistry to try to salvage your literal interpretation of the Adam and Eve story by distinguishing between human anatomy and “the true nature of the human species.” “Adam and Eve” are theologically symbolic of all of humanity.

StAnastasia
Adam and Eve are not symbols. Read your Bible. Through one man sin entered the world. Just like the same Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead. The same physical Jesus.

Peace,
Ed
 
As regards Adam and Eve, I have some interesting news. I contacted Jonathan Wells (an ID proponent who has a Ph.D. in religious studies and a Ph.D. in Molecular and Cell Biology from UC Berkeley), and he sent me an email from which I’ll quote a brief extract:

“Note that I am not claiming that the biological/paleontological evidence SUPPORTS monogenism – only that the evidence does not rule it out.”

I hope that helps.

Best wishes,

Vincent Torley
This news is the best ever. Thank you.

Could it be that Jonathan Wells is referring to the principle of induction? My memory reminds me that I have had a harder time understanding induction than I did with deduction.

True story – We have a 24/7 Perpetual Adoration Chapel. I do an hour of Eucharistic Adoration at 2:00 AM, usually as a substitute when a scheduled adorer is not available. This morning’s 2:00 AM hour followed an all-nighter working on posts and rereading research. Obviously, my mind was cluttered as I walked back and forth in the Chapel trying to stay awake. At that point, I decided that I didn’t need to fret. God would provide the needed information in His time. I began the rosary…

Blessings,
granny

All creation is a joy to behold.
 
Adam and Eve are not symbols. Read your Bible.
Peace,Ed
I do indeed, Ed. The difference is that you are a biblical literalist in interpretation, and I am not. We’ll have to agree to disagree on this point, as on a literal global flood and the rescue of all species on Noah’s Ark.

StAnastasia
 
Granny, there is no genetic evidence that the human population has ever passed through a genetic bottleneck as severely constricted as one breeding pair. It is sheer sophistry to try to salvage your literal interpretation of the Adam and Eve story by distinguishing between human anatomy and “the true nature of the human species.” “Adam and Eve” are theologically symbolic of all of humanity.

StAnastasia
Please give the following to your biology professor and priest friends.
Thank you.

What exactly is the evidence that precludes a founder effect of two people?

In other words, do the computer-simulated populations used for exploring the minimum bottleneck size based on valid genetic evidence also keep track of the individual movements of 10,000 Homo sapiens who may or may not be fully complete humans?

How does the computer determine that everyone of the 10,000 bottleneck is incapable of wandering off?

What published research has studied the bottleneck population and determined that every member of that population was incapable of wandering off?

What published research has evidence that during the time period following the bottleneck everyone was unable to wander off?

Unless there is actual evidence showing that no one could wander off at anytime from all the various populations of hominids, then the possibility of two sole parents of the human species does exist.

Blessings,
granny

The fully complete human being is the apple of God’s eye.
 
Granny, there is no genetic evidence that the human population has ever passed through a genetic bottleneck as severely constricted as one breeding pair. It is sheer sophistry to try to salvage your literal interpretation of the Adam and Eve story by distinguishing between human anatomy and “the true nature of the human species.” “Adam and Eve” are theologically symbolic of all of humanity.

StAnastasia
What about distinguishing between animal anatomy and the true nature of the human being?

If that interests you, check out the thread “Is there any difference between a chimpanzee and a human?” in Apologetics.
 
What exactly is the evidence that precludes a founder effect of two people?

In other words, do the computer-simulated populations used for exploring the minimum bottleneck size based on valid genetic evidence also keep track of the individual movements of 10,000 Homo sapiens who may or may not be fully complete humans?
Minimum population sizes do not depend on population growth figures, they depend on the numbers of alleles at given loci and on the number of shared alleles between us and Chimpanzees.

For example:“The coalescence theory of populations genetics leads to the conclusion that the DRB1 polymorphism requires that the population ancestral to modern humans has maintained a mean effective size of 100,000 individuals over the 30-million-year persistence of this polymorphism. We explore the possibility of occasional population bottlenecks and conclude that the ancestral population could not have at any time consisted of fewer than several thousand individuals. The MHC polymorphisms exclude the theory claiming, on the basis of mitochondrial DNA polymorphisms, that a constriction down to one or few women occurred in Africa, at the transition from archaic to anatomically modern humans, some 200,000 years ago.”

Source: Ayala et al, Molecular genetics of speciation and human origins, PNAS 91, 6787 – 6794 (1994)
What genetics cannot tell you is how many of that population had souls. It is possible that for a time there were a mixture of souled and unsouled living in the same population.

rossum
 
Granny, there is no genetic evidence that the human population has ever passed through a genetic bottleneck as severely constricted as one breeding pair. It is sheer sophistry to try to salvage your literal interpretation of the Adam and Eve story by distinguishing between human anatomy and “the true nature of the human species.” “Adam and Eve” are theologically symbolic of all of humanity.

StAnastasia
Once again, may I remind you that my focus is on the existence of two sole parents of the human species. It does not make any difference to me if their names are Adam and Eve or Mr.and Mrs. John Doe.

Furthermore, at this point in time, it is my preference not to discuss any interpretation of any passage in Sacred Scripture. Obviously, readers, such as yourself, may draw their own conclusions from my posts. However, there are a couple of interesting lines in Genesis that I am seriously considering for a future post.

When I do refer to Catholic teaching in a post, I clearly state that I am referring to Catholic teaching and I usually follow with this handy link

Blessings,
granny

All human beings are worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
 
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