Myth of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture

[MaggieOH]

dumspirospero:

Please tell me what the purpose in the anti-christ is, if the only people around when he gets here are non-Christians? It is pointless for the anti-christ to be let loose on a population that has already turned their backs on God…does anyone else see the absurdity in this? The person in those scriptures yet to be revealed is the Son of Perdition or the Anti-Christ and the only person holding him back is Christ…once Christ decides to let him loose upon the world, The Church will experience a time that will shake all believers and even have some of the believer turn away from God…I am sorry, but you are foolish if you think man is holding back the Anti-Christ…we have no power whatsoever to prevent these things from happening and there sure isn’t going to be some fairytale rapture to save us from them happening.

Also, The Catholic Church is the one true Church…we are the only Church to have the blessings of being started by Christ, Apostolic sucession, Tradition, etc…We have the gift of the Holy Spirit as well…so why are our beliefs so different? I find it troubling that you and other protestants suggest that the Holy Spirit contradicts himself. A single man is not able to interpret and understand the Bible, Christianity, or the Divine Mysteries…that is why there is a Magisterium, Tradition, Dogma, Encyclicals, etc…which allow us to Truly know where the HOly Spirit is leading the Church.

All very good points :bowdown2:

 

[MaggieOH]

bkniceley:

God’s wrath is the whole of revelation the whole book which describes the endtimes… if god says that we were not meant to suffer his wrath then we cannot be in those times… also look at 2Th 2:6 You know what it is that now holds him back, so that he will be revealed when his time comes.
2Th 2:7 The mystery of this sin is already at work. But it cannot work effectively until the person now holding it back gets out of the way.
2Th 2:8 Then the man of sin will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will destroy him by what he says. When the Lord Jesus comes, his appearance will put an end to this man.

Now something is not letting this false messiah be revealed… what is it then? And what is this person holding back? The person is holding back sin and the person is a christian. So once all the people resisting sin are removed(christians) then the antichrist will be revealed and is not being held back any longer.

And for the person that doesnt read any “modern” books… what makes u think that the older books are the ones always in the right? God pours out his knowledge through the holy spirit whom all christians have today. You cant just rule out all “modern” books for everything.

The Book of Revelation was not written for some future date, but that does not mean that there are not things that are written that refer to a future date.

The Book of Revelation is a book that was written to comfort a people under persecution. This is how it should be read.

Who is Anti-Christ? There is only one Anti-Christ but lots of precursors to the Anti-Christ. By this I mean the Anti-Christ is Satan. All who follow in the footsteps of Satan are the precursors of Anti-Christ. That is why this title is aptly applied to Nero, as well as to Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Lenin, Mao Tse Tung and all the others who have committed dark crimes of genocide against their own people, as well as against other people.

Do we live in the time of an Anti-Christ? I believe that the answer should be affirmative. Christ(ians) is under attack not only by terrorists who proclaim themselves to be Muslim, and yes Islam is a danger to the world and especially to Christians, but also from the non-believers, the atheists. If any of these groups are attacking our fellow Christians then they are also attacking Christ.

I will add something extra about the groups attacking Christ and attempting to create the culture of death. After reading further information about the Terri Schiavo case, I believe that the Scientologists should be put in the same category as Islam. They are also attacking Christ through their doctrines.

That is why I believe that we live in such a time that is a precursor to the Anti-Christ.

(cont)

 

[MaggieOH]

Like so many other traditions of men, the doctrine of Pre-Tribulation Rapture is based upon some very selfish concepts. It is based upon the notion that there is an elect who are not meant to suffer. Is this notion upheld within the Scripture? No it is not.
Jesus said: “If you want to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, take up your cross and follow me” (paraphrase) That means that we are meant to have sufferings of one sort or another and we are being tested with those sufferings by God. He will always strengthen us if we come and share the sufferings with Him.

There is nowhere in Scripture that Christians are promised a bed of roses or that they will never have to undergo suffering. The early Christian martyrs died because of their belief that Jesus is the Christ. Some of them underwent shocking tortures because of what they believed and the fact that they would not worship a false pagan God. Throughout the ages other Christian men and women have undergone the same fate out of love of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Some of these Christian men and women have been Baptist, Anglican, Pentecostal etc, but the vast majority who have suffered are Catholic. They put God first.
The same can be said for those Jews who suffered and died for the sake of being God’s Chosen People. There has already been a severe tribulation in the twentieth century. It happened in Germany, Austria and a few other European countries. It is happening now in the Middle East. Just ask anyone about what is happening to the Coptics and the tribulations that they are facing.
The doctrine of the Rapture never even considers these traumatic events in terms of Christ’s teachings or in terms of the Book of Revelation. That doctrine teaches a false sense of security, claiming as it does that those Christians who believe in this false doctrine will be caught up in the sky and they will never have to face torture and suffering.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Ozzie:

True, but none of this suggests that God won’t Rapture the Church at the proper time. He allowed the Church to endure 300 consecutive years of persecution, and every true believer has his own personal trials during his/her life time. But still, none of this has anything to do with the Rapture of the (true) Church. Your argument is totally subjective. Obviously God’s plan was not catch up Noah, David or Stephen. Nor is it His plan to rescue any of us out of personal trials that we must face while living on this earth. But there is a future Tribulation Period called the “wrath” that true believers who make up the Church at that time are not destined:

1THES. 1:10 "…and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come."

1THES 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

It’s true God does not promise to rescue us from our own personal trials, but the coming “wrath” of God, which will come upon the whole earth, is a wholly different story. The *true Church *is the Body of Christ and Christ does not bring wrath upon His own Body. The true Chruch is the Bride of Christ, and Christ does ot bring wrath upon His Bride. For this reason God’s Word says we (the true Church, true believers) are not destined for “wrath.”

That “wrath” has already happened way back in 70 A.D. when the Romans destroyed the Temple at Jerusalem.

The Christians were left unharmed when the destruction happened since they were able to flee to the hills to avoid the wrath of the Romans.

The whole notion that is suggested here is very selfish.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

dumspirospero:

That is referring to the second coming…I am sorry, but there can only be one second coming…as Christians, we are supposed to live our lives as Christ lived his…what makes you think we shall escape tribulations, temptations, and suffering? Christ didn’t. During the end times, to quote the CCC 675: “Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the 'mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth . The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh."

I was raised protestant and fed all of that pre-trib rapture garbage and that is all it is…it is false hope inspired into people and people believe it because it is the easiest way out…they think that all they have to do is have faith in Jesus, they are automatically saved, and they will be spared from the hard times that result from the great tribulation…I am sorry, but that is childish concept to have. We are going to be tried, tested, shaken, misled, etc…even some of the Elect will turn away from God…this will be the final test to see just how true our Faith is…please don’t think anyone will be spared from it. It is something that all of us will endure if we live that long. How are you going to feel when your “rapture” doesn’t happen and you are left with a bunch of John Hagee dvd’s and Left Behind books that just became less valuable than toilet paper?

Seek the truth and you shall find.

and my cat Skittles will know what to do with those valueless books

Maggie

 

[Benadam]

dumspirospero:

Please tell me what the purpose in the anti-christ is, if the only people around when he gets here are non-Christians? It is pointless for the anti-christ to be let loose on a population that has already turned their backs on God…does anyone else see the absurdity in this? The person in those scriptures yet to be revealed is the Son of Perdition or the Anti-Christ and the only person holding him back is Christ…once Christ decides to let him loose upon the world, The Church will experience a time that will shake all believers and even have some of the believer turn away from God…I am sorry, but you are foolish if you think man is holding back the Anti-Christ…we have no power whatsoever to prevent these things from happening and there sure isn’t going to be some fairytale rapture to save us from them happening.

Also, The Catholic Church is the one true Church…we are the only Church to have the blessings of being started by Christ, Apostolic sucession, Tradition, etc…We have the gift of the Holy Spirit as well…so why are our beliefs so different? I find it troubling that you and other protestants suggest that the Holy Spirit contradicts himself. A single man is not able to interpret and understand the Bible, Christianity, or the Divine Mysteries…that is why there is a Magisterium, Tradition, Dogma, Encyclicals, etc…which allow us to Truly know where the HOly Spirit is leading the Church.

Sin has to reach it’s most sublime deception before Jesus comes. If He came before that the Devil would still have something up his sleeve.

 

[dumspirospero]

We are on a roll tonight Great Post :bowdown:

MaggieOH:

Like so many other traditions of men, the doctrine of Pre-Tribulation Rapture is based upon some very selfish concepts. It is based upon the notion that there is an elect who are not meant to suffer. Is this notion upheld within the Scripture? No it is not.
Jesus said: “If you want to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, take up your cross and follow me” (paraphrase) That means that we are meant to have sufferings of one sort or another and we are being tested with those sufferings by God. He will always strengthen us if we come and share the sufferings with Him.

There is nowhere in Scripture that Christians are promised a bed of roses or that they will never have to undergo suffering. The early Christian martyrs died because of their belief that Jesus is the Christ. Some of them underwent shocking tortures because of what they believed and the fact that they would not worship a false pagan God. Throughout the ages other Christian men and women have undergone the same fate out of love of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Some of these Christian men and women have been Baptist, Anglican, Pentecostal etc, but the vast majority who have suffered are Catholic. They put God first.
The same can be said for those Jews who suffered and died for the sake of being God’s Chosen People. There has already been a severe tribulation in the twentieth century. It happened in Germany, Austria and a few other European countries. It is happening now in the Middle East. Just ask anyone about what is happening to the Coptics and the tribulations that they are facing.
The doctrine of the Rapture never even considers these traumatic events in terms of Christ’s teachings or in terms of the Book of Revelation. That doctrine teaches a false sense of security, claiming as it does that those Christians who believe in this false doctrine will be caught up in the sky and they will never have to face torture and suffering.

Maggie

 

[dumspirospero]

We are on a roll tonight Great Post :bowdown:

I did see a funny bumpersticker the other day while driving down the road…it said “Warning, car will unoccupied in case of Rapture” Two big fallacies I see with this sticker: 1) This person believes they have already been saved and has nothing to worry about 2) THat there will actually be a Rapture.

MaggieOH:

Like so many other traditions of men, the doctrine of Pre-Tribulation Rapture is based upon some very selfish concepts. It is based upon the notion that there is an elect who are not meant to suffer. Is this notion upheld within the Scripture? No it is not.
Jesus said: “If you want to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, take up your cross and follow me” (paraphrase) That means that we are meant to have sufferings of one sort or another and we are being tested with those sufferings by God. He will always strengthen us if we come and share the sufferings with Him.

There is nowhere in Scripture that Christians are promised a bed of roses or that they will never have to undergo suffering. The early Christian martyrs died because of their belief that Jesus is the Christ. Some of them underwent shocking tortures because of what they believed and the fact that they would not worship a false pagan God. Throughout the ages other Christian men and women have undergone the same fate out of love of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Some of these Christian men and women have been Baptist, Anglican, Pentecostal etc, but the vast majority who have suffered are Catholic. They put God first.
The same can be said for those Jews who suffered and died for the sake of being God’s Chosen People. There has already been a severe tribulation in the twentieth century. It happened in Germany, Austria and a few other European countries. It is happening now in the Middle East. Just ask anyone about what is happening to the Coptics and the tribulations that they are facing.
The doctrine of the Rapture never even considers these traumatic events in terms of Christ’s teachings or in terms of the Book of Revelation. That doctrine teaches a false sense of security, claiming as it does that those Christians who believe in this false doctrine will be caught up in the sky and they will never have to face torture and suffering.

Maggie

 

[Coptic]

I did see a funny bumpersticker the other day while driving down the road…it said “Warning, car will unoccupied in case of Rapture” Two big fallacies I see with this sticker: 1) This person believes they have already been saved and has nothing to worry about 2) THat there will actually be a Rapture.

On of the biggest issues I have with some Protestants I have spoken with is the whole once saved always saved concept. Like you said, they feel that their fate is already decided, and are so confident that they are saved. Confidence can be dangerours. This whole concept makes no sense to me, it’s like all of their actions after announcing their belief in Christ don’t matter. They are free to do what they will, as long as they truly believe in Christ.

Faith without works is dead.
Even the demons believe–and tremble!

God Bless,
Elizabeth

 

[dumspirospero]

Very true Elizabeth…that is one of the reasons I converted to Catholicism from Southern Baptist…so I wouldn’t have to deal with those crazy questions such as, “Are you saved?”…I would reply, “not yet…and neither are you…but hopefully we will be when our number is called”…then they would look at me like a social philistine and accuse me of heresy…etc, etc…I figured out Protestantism a long time ago…it is the road that is “paved with good intentions” that you hear about in that famous saying about going to Hell. They take our Dogma and Doctrine and they water it down because it is too hard for them to be Catholic…They instill a false sense of hope and security in people and lead them to believe that just by having faith they are saved…and always saved and will never have to face any hardship or tribulation because they will be miracled into heaven while us Catholics, heretics, and the Pope is left behind to face the wrath of God for not being true believers…give me a break…talk about a cop out. According to them…it is effortless to enter the Kingdom of Heaven…heck, even Hitler would be there if he had faith…

Coptic:

On of the biggest issues I have with some Protestants I have spoken with is the whole once saved always saved concept. Like you said, they feel that their fate is already decided, and are so confident that they are saved. Confidence can be dangerours. This whole concept makes no sense to me, it’s like all of their actions after announcing their belief in Christ don’t matter. They are free to do what they will, as long as they truly believe in Christ.

Faith without works is dead.
Even the demons believe–and tremble!

God Bless,
Elizabeth

 

[Lorarose]

I was disappointed recently when a friend of mine brought up the “rapture” as an incentive to save me from the catholic church.

You see - only those who believe in the rapture actually WILL get raptured (at least her version of it)
Catholics get left behind (because LeHaye said so)

And what I really sensed from this conversation was PRIDE!!
I sense a great sense of superiority from these folks who truly believe they will never taste death - and how sad for the rest of us!
Sometimes I think they believe in this doctrine because they enjoy the sense of superiority and enjoy the thought of all those folks they disagree with finally “getting theirs.”

They can observe from heaven shaking their heads and proclaim “we told you so!”

So…do they ever consider the possibility they are wrong?
And what happens if they are? And they find themselves in the middle of tribulation? What if the son of perdition actually does make an appearance - and they’re still here with us catholics?

 

[dumspirospero]

I am thinking of the phrase “Without a paddle”…I truly think they will be shaken…because everything they believed in will be proven false…maybe they will be a large chunk of the elect that falls away from The Church…because they have not been preparing and accepting the fact that we must suffer and endure this time period.

Lorarose:

So…do they ever consider the possibility they are wrong?
And what happens if they are? And they find themselves in the middle of tribulation? What if the son of perdition actually does make an appearance - and they’re still here with us catholics?

 

[Maccabees]

Lorarose:

I was disappointed recently when a friend of mine brought up the “rapture” as an incentive to save me from the catholic church.

You see - only those who believe in the rapture actually WILL get raptured (at least her version of it)
Catholics get left behind (because LeHaye said so)

And what I really sensed from this conversation was PRIDE!!
I sense a great sense of superiority from these folks who truly believe they will never taste death - and how sad for the rest of us!
Sometimes I think they believe in this doctrine because they enjoy the sense of superiority and enjoy the thought of all those folks they disagree with finally “getting theirs.”

They can observe from heaven shaking their heads and proclaim “we told you so!”

So…do they ever consider the possibility they are wrong?
And what happens if they are? And they find themselves in the middle of tribulation? What if the son of perdition actually does make an appearance - and they’re still here with us catholics?

Its an arrogant concept really. Here’s their thinking; I figured out this teaching in the Bible and even though many have faith in Christ since I figured out the rapture in the Bible I get escape persectution and the poor catholics even Mother Teresa types are left behing because well they didn’t believe in the rapture. What does this have to do with having in faith in Christ for salavation? This is like having faith in the rapture for salvation. Very weird.
Yeah if they are LEFT BEHIND they will be in for a big suprise and unprepared that’s why the rapture is a dangerous doctrine. Catholics are taught to endure till the end to be saved so we will be better prepared thant the escapist notion of some protestants.

 

[Maccabees]

Lorarose:

I was disappointed recently when a friend of mine brought up the “rapture” as an incentive to save me from the catholic church.

You see - only those who believe in the rapture actually WILL get raptured (at least her version of it)
Catholics get left behind (because LeHaye said so)

And what I really sensed from this conversation was PRIDE!!
I sense a great sense of superiority from these folks who truly believe they will never taste death - and how sad for the rest of us!
Sometimes I think they believe in this doctrine because they enjoy the sense of superiority and enjoy the thought of all those folks they disagree with finally “getting theirs.”

They can observe from heaven shaking their heads and proclaim “we told you so!”

So…do they ever consider the possibility they are wrong?
And what happens if they are? And they find themselves in the middle of tribulation? What if the son of perdition actually does make an appearance - and they’re still here with us catholics?

Its an arrogant concept really I figured out this teaching in the Bible and even though many have faith in Christ since I figured out the rapture in the Bible I get escape persectution and the poor catholics even Mother Teresa types are left behing because well they didn’t believe in the rapture. What does this have to do with having in faith in Christ for salavation? This is like having faith in the rapture for salvation. Very weird.
Yeah if they are LEFT BEHIND they will be in for a big suprise and unprepared that’s why the rapture is a dangerous doctrine. Catholics are taught to endure till the end to be saved so we will be better prepared thant the escapist notion of most protestants.

 

[Maccabees]

Lorarose:

I was disappointed recently when a friend of mine brought up the “rapture” as an incentive to save me from the catholic church.

You see - only those who believe in the rapture actually WILL get raptured (at least her version of it)
Catholics get left behind (because LeHaye said so)

And what I really sensed from this conversation was PRIDE!!
I sense a great sense of superiority from these folks who truly believe they will never taste death - and how sad for the rest of us!
Sometimes I think they believe in this doctrine because they enjoy the sense of superiority and enjoy the thought of all those folks they disagree with finally “getting theirs.”

They can observe from heaven shaking their heads and proclaim “we told you so!”

So…do they ever consider the possibility they are wrong?
And what happens if they are? And they find themselves in the middle of tribulation? What if the son of perdition actually does make an appearance - and they’re still here with us catholics?

Its an arrogant concept really I figured out this teaching in the Bible and even though many have faith in Christ since I figured out the rapture in the Bible I get escape persectution and the poor catholics even Mother Teresa types are left behing because well they didn’t believe in the rapture. What does this have to do with having in faith in Christ for salavation? This is like having faith in the rapture for salvation. Very weird.
Yeah if they are LEFT BEHIND they will be in for a big suprise and unprepared that’s why the rapture is a dangerous doctrine. Catholics are taught to endure till the end to be saved so we will be better prepared thant the escapist notion of many protestants.

 

[MaggieOH]

Coptic:

On of the biggest issues I have with some Protestants I have spoken with is the whole once saved always saved concept. Like you said, they feel that their fate is already decided, and are so confident that they are saved. Confidence can be dangerours. This whole concept makes no sense to me, it’s like all of their actions after announcing their belief in Christ don’t matter. They are free to do what they will, as long as they truly believe in Christ.

Faith without works is dead.
Even the demons believe–and tremble!

God Bless,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth,

well stated . I agree with every word that you said here.

Yes, OSAS is yet another doctrine of man. It is the same as the Rapture in that it is a modern innovation, for it was not taught within early Christianity.

Also, just like the Rapture, it is a doctrine that inculcates both selfishness and pride in those who believe that kind of trash.

It was not taught by Jesus. In fact he taught the opposite of this doctrine. The people in His day who believed in something like OSAS were the Pharisees and Sadducees who saw themselves as being perfect because they had stuck to the letter of the law, yet they did not look after the state of their own hearts.

It is the same with these prideful people who make such uncharitable remarks about others and believe that only they will be going to heaven, even if they did steal aunty’s painting from grandma’s house.

Maggie

 

[Maccabees]

Oh here’s a side note a couple days ago when the Pope’s health was uncertain this was the top headline story on Larry King then they lept into the show which was about Evangelicals and guess who was in the Studio?

Tim Lahaye and his wife. Larry king updates the story on the Pope and Tim doesn’t break into any sort of a pause of Let’s pray for the Pope or we give him our prayers or something any christian would do when an elderly person is rushed to emergency. He just went into his interview not mentioning the Pope once. For a fellow christian especially the leader of the universal church I thought this extremly weird and disrepectful not to mention unchristian but then again I thought the Left Behind books are unchristian to begin with.
They turn God into a Death Wish vigelante.

 

[dumspirospero]

I have read a few of his books when I was a huh, huh Protestant
and I remember him making references to the Pope possibly being the Anti-Christ and the Catholic Church as the whore of babylon…so he was probably secretly hoping he would pass on.

Maccabees:

Oh here’s a side note a couple days ago when the Pope’s health was uncertain this was the top headline story on Larry King then they lept into the show which was about Evangelicals and guess who was in the Studio?

Tim Lahaye and his wife. Larry king updates the story on the Pope and Tim doesn’t break into any sort of a pause of Let’s pray for the Pope or we give him our prayers or something any christian would do when an elderly person is rushed to emergency. He just went into his interview not mentioning the Pope once. For a fellow christian especially the leader of the universal church I thought this extremly weird and disrepectful not to mention unchristian but then again I thought the Left Behind books are unchristian to begin with.
They turn God into a Death Wish vigelante.

 

[MaggieOH]

dumspirospero:

I have read a few of his books when I was a huh, huh Protestant
and I remember him making references to the Pope possibly being the Anti-Christ and the Catholic Church as the whore of babylon…so he was probably secretly hoping he would pass on.

He sounds like a very unpleasant and arrogant man.

Maggie

 

[Coptic]

I have heard that before too—about the Pope being the anti-christ. I was disgusted to say the least.

God Bless,
Elizabeth