Myth of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture

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catsrus:
My grandaughter, who is R.C.I.A., due for Baptism, Confirmation and 1st Eucharist at the Easter vigil on March 26th, came to me today with the following:
  1. Please explain the doctrine of Purgatory
  2. Why has Satan not been mentioned once since I’ve been in R.C.I.A?
  3. Do Catholics believe in Satan?
  4. Where do we go when we die?
She is 22 years old, 6 weeks short of joining The Church and doesn’t know these answers!!!
She was raised with no religion and stumbled to Catholicism through “the door” (fundie group) and reading all the “left behind” books. She deserves better than she’s getting but she is too shy to speak up and ask these questions.
How many Catholics do not understand Catholic teaching on the last days and what happens after death? Seems like many from what I’m reading and hearing. 😦
Guess we’d better get busy catechizing ourselves and each other!
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Catsrus,
I just read your post and was overwhelmed by the good fortune of your grandaughter. Of course, give her a big hug and help her out with the answers to any question she asks but let her know the difference between the Church and those within the Church. The Church is God’s gift to us through Christ. The Magisterium, Tradition and the Bible and the Sacraments with the Eucharist as the greatest gift of God.

The people within the Church are all sinners, hopefully trying to do our best and we fail. That she, as long as she is on earth, will never know enough about the Church. That we are always learning. Tell her she is so lucky to have found Christ’s Church so soon and that she now can learn about the fullness of God’s gift. Get her a copy of “The Faith of our Fathers” by James Cardinal Gibbons from Tan books. Or the other 3 volume set “Faith of the Early Fathers” by William A. Jurgens. Especially Volume 1. It will give her the history of God’s gift and let her know how things came to be in the early Church. She will love the Church even more by knowing how it came about. It’s a wonderful story and fills in a lot of blanks. She can then get more history books by Catholic authors that will continue to give her a good grounding in the history of the Church.

Tell her we never know enough. I’m an old coot and still learning and the more i learn the more I love it.

God bless.
Whit (sfo)
 
Yeah…and I guess 144,000 non-believing Jews are to responsible for making believers out of those “left behind”…FYI…I will use LaHaye’s books for toilet paper once the tribulation starts and all you broken hearted protestants are in confusion LOL 🙂
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Ozzie:
They’re in Heaven, and yes, they came out of the great Tribulation. That is, they died during that terrible time on earth. They’re believers but they’re NOT part of the Church (the true Church), the Bride of Christ, that was taken up to be with the Lord before the Tribulation period began.
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Ozzie,

St. John Chrysostom in his Commentary on the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans, Homily XIV, Rom VIII, 12,13 stated about 1 Thess 4:17:
“Then is the whole Heaven thrown open, and the gates of those concaves unfold themselves, and the Only-begotten Son of God cometh down, not with twenty, not with a hundred men for His bodyguard, but with thousands, ten thousands of Angels and Archangels, Cherubim and Seraphim, and other Powers, and with fear and trembling shall everything be filled, whiles the earth is bursting itself up, and the men that ever were born, from Adam’s birth up to that day, are rising from the earth, and all are caught up; (1 Thess. iv. 17) when Himself appears with such great glory as that the sun, and the moon, and all light whatever, is cast into the shade, being outshone by that radiance.”

Same source, Homily XXXII: Rom. XVI, 17/18 -
“From thence will Paul be caught up, from thence Peter. Just bethink you, and shudder (fri’xate) at the thought of what a sight Rome will see, when Paul ariseth suddenly from that deposit, together with Peter, and is lifted up to meet the Lord. (1 Thess. iv. 17.) What a rose will Rome send up to Christ! (Is. xxxv. 1) what two crowns will the city have about it! what golden chains will she be girded with! what fountains possess! …Would that it were now given me to throw myself round (perichuthh^nai) the body of Paul, and be riveted to the tomb, and to see the dust of that body that “filled up that which was lacking” after “Christ” Col. i. 24), that bore “the marks” (sti’gmata,) (Gal. vi. 17) that sowed the Gospel everywhere yea, the dust of that body through which he ran to and fro everywhere! the dust of that body through which Christ spoke,”

Since you like Justin Martyr, and the prophet Daniel, I thought this quote would be of interest: From Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho, Chap. XIV:
“Of these and such like words written by the prophets, O Trypho,” said I, “some have reference to the first advent of Christ, in which He is preached as inglorious, obscure, and of mortal appearance: but others had reference to His second advent (my emph.), when He shall appear in glory and above the clouds; and your nation shall see and know Him whom they have pierced, as Hosea, one of the twelve prophets, and Daniel, foretold.”

Or Tertullian who said in An Answer to the Jews, chap XIV:
" Of which second advent (my emph.) of the same (Christ) Daniel has said: "And, behold, as it were a Son of man, coming with the clouds of the heaven, came unto the Ancient of days, and was present in His sight; and they who were standing by led (Him) unto Him.

There were no doubt various theories about millenialism in the early church, I don’t think anyone would deny that. However, it is clear that the early church knew nothing about a pre-trib “rapture” - only about the second coming. The Catholic Church would tell you we will be caught up in the clouds at Christ’s second coming, just as the ECF’s taught. Just to be complete, though, show us some quotes of Justin Martyr commenting about a pre-tribulation “rapture” of believing Christians? The “rapture” and millenialism are actually two different topics. I saw nothing in your quotes remotely indicating a belief in a rapture. Any comments?

Since the “rapturists” I have read indicate that in the 7 year tribulation, the first three and a half will be relatively quiet. Where is the scriptural proof that the final three and a half years will yield such a multitude of martyrs for Christ that they can’t even be counted in heaven as noted in Rev. 7:9-13? For instance, if that many were martyred, then who is left for Jesus to rule over during the thousand year reign?

You quoted Rev 6:17 “…for the great day of their wrath has come.” How do you explain John seeing the martyrs who have come through the tribulation in Rev 7, yet it is not until after the opening of the seventh seal in Rev 8, and after the beast comes to power for 42 months in Rev 13:5ff and was “allowed to make war on the saints” in verse 7 that is even appears the tribulation begins. When do you think Revelation indicates the tribulation to take place? (I’m just curious).:hmmm:

Thanks, MBS1
 
So extensively, so generally was Chiliasm (Premillennialism) perpetuated, that Justin Martyr positively asserts that all the orthodox adopted and upheld it. Justin’s language is explicit (Dial. with Trypho, sec.2); for after stating the Chiliastic (Premillennial) doctrine, he asserts:

“it to be thoroughly proved that it will come to pass. But I have also signified unto thee, on the other hand, that many – even those of that race of Christians who follow no godly and pure doctrine – do not acknowledge it. For I have demonstrated to thee, that these are indeed called Christians; but are atheists and impious heretics, because that in all things they teach what is blasphemous, and ungodly, and unsound…”
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Macc:Ok where is the Premillennial doctrine? There is nothing in this statement that suggest this.
He adds:

"But I and whatsoever Christians are orthodox in all things do know that there will be a resurrection of the flesh, and a thousand years in the city of Jerusalem, built, adorned and enlarged, according as Ezekiel, Isaiah, and other prophets have promised. For Isaiah saith of this thousand years (ch. 65:17) ‘Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind; but be ye glad and rejoice in those which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem to triumph, and my people to rejoice,’ etc. Moreover, a certain man among us, whose name is John, being one of the twelve apostles of Christ, in that revelation which was shown to him prophesied, that those who believe in our Christ shall fulfil a thousand years at Jerusalem; and after that the general, and, in a word, the everlasting resurrection, and last judgment of all together. Whereof also our Lord spake when He said, that therein they shall neither marry, nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal with the angels, being made the sons of the resurrection of God."Justin did not have a pleasant opinion of those who taught differently from the Premillennial view. Origin and the school of Alexandria adopted the allegorical method of interpretation of Scripture and taught many bizarre, mystical, doctines.
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Justin is PostMillinial this is a description of chialsim there is nothing PreMillinial here I hopsted his explicit post tributlation theology you have him describing the millinium that doesn’t prove he is PreMill.

In fact he point to a post-tribulation no rapture scenario which you have not retributed you just have facts that he was millnarian I didn’t doubt that so why point out the non-disputed? Because you don’t have evidence to support your lame theory.
Read this again:
 
“He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostacy, who speaks strange things against the most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on earth against us Christians, who have learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostle of Jesus.” Christ "shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by his angelic hosts, when also he shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality. (Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho)
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You give no evidence that Justin didn’t have a pleasant opinion of other Orthodox Christians who had a different escchalotology you gave him lashing out on non-catholic sects hey that would be you. And for the last time he was not Premillinial nor have you posted any statements to prove otherwise you have taken way out of context things he says about non-catholics and way they pertain to other catholics you take his view on the millinium and you conclude they are Premill when in fact they are Post when you read the entire dialogue. You amazaing at twisting scripture and the fathers and history I will give you that.
Origen leared the allegorical method from Jews he studied with Rabbis considering a Jew wrote Revelation perhaps the fact that Origen could read the Hebrew and Aramaic of Daniel along Ezekiel and the prophetic books of the OT helped unlock the keys of the mystical books of Revelation. You say this school was mystical well it takes a mystic to interpret the mysticla book of Revelation it certainly is not literal. THe date setters are the ones who take this literal and they are always wrong.
THe Alexandrain school was overall a great school of Early Christiantiy it was the earlies to teach Hebrew and Aramaic and Orgigen was the first father fulent in these languages. He could read the prophetic books of the OT that unlocked the mysteries of Revelation. Justin could not read any Hebrew or Aramaic so in reality Origen was far better equipped to interpret Revelation which is Jewsih mysticism than Justin.
The Alexandrain school was Orthodox at the time of Origen only later did they fall into some error due to speculation which was permitted at the time of Origen. But overall the Orthodoxy was pretty good. Origen is certainly more Orthodox in many ways than you rapture heretics.
 
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Scott_Lafrance:
Who cares about more modern writers, as they all fall on the premise established by Darby. If you start with a flawed premise, all conclusions based on that premise will be wrong. Why should I involve myself in discovering the writings of “Modern” dispensational rapturists, if they are all just expositions of the original flawed theory propagated by Darby?
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:clapping: Since Darby formulated this theology his works would be the primary source documents; all others would be secondary sources.
 
Faustina,

Jesus ‘comes to Earth’ three (3) times.

1st time occurred 2,000 years ago, and He was crucified.
2nd time will be at the beginning of the ERA OF PEACE (see below…this is NOT Millenaneranism (sp), which was condemned by the Church…there is a huge difference.
3rd time at the end of the ERA OF PEACE for the judgement (n.b. there will be 2 judgements see the CCC - a particular adn a general judgement.) The Era of Peace is sound doctrine…see the discussion of Fr. Roux and the comments of Cardinal Ratzinger in the writing below.

PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING:

call2holiness.org/EraofPeace/EraofPeace.htm

Ozzie,
I have just scanned Justin Martyr’s dialogue with Trypho…have not studied it yet…got to leave for Mass…but I think a careful study of it will indicate that Justin Martyr is speaking of the ERA OF PEACE.

Please read the link above.

ciao for now,

cubbie
 
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davy39:
Hey Maggie, the whole crazy idea sure has sold lots of books. They have made a couple of guys millionaires.
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The way of Christ does not involve becoming millionaires from writing books that scare people into being afraid for their own well-being.

Maggie
 
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Ozzie:
The Margaret McDonald story is propagated by many anti-Dispenstionalists only to discredit it. But every scholar (Dispensational and non-Dispensational) of any integrity rejects this slanderous tale. The fact that you even bring it up reveals that you have done little, if any, true research into the “truth” behind the slander. All you’ve done is enter into their lie.It is true it was popularized by Scofield, but that doesn’t discredit it. Of course it’s not found in the writings of the early Church. The early, persecuted Church formulated no doctrinal views. But the prophet Daniel is told something very revealing:

DAN 12:6 "And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be until the end of these wonders?”

DAN 12:7 “And I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.”

DAN 12:8 "As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?”

DAN 12:9 "And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.”

But for the first 400 years the Church was Premillennial, as evidenced by the writing of Justin Martyr. That is, it believed, based on what it was taught, that Christ would come back and set up a literal, political Kingdom on this earth for 1000 years, and after that God would create a new heavens and earth. But because of the fall of the western Empire to Germanic tribes (410 A.D.) and antisemitic sentiments, the Church adopted Augustine’s spiritual view of the Kingdom (expressed in his very popular literary work, “The City of God”) and lost sight of God’s prophetic Word regarding the Davidic Kingdom and national Israel. His prophetic and unconditional Covenant promises to that nation are clearly revealed in His written Word, both Old and New Testaments.

But now in these latter days of this Church age there has been a resurgence of prophetic truth. Certainly not all will believe God’s prophetic Word (RC’ism & various Protestant groups)) but, nevertheless, God’s Word is immutable and He is watching over it to perform it (Jer. 1:12). God doesn’t answer to us, neither Pope, Prelate, Priest or Pastor.
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First point: Daniel refers to Jesus.
Second point: I have doen more research than you have.

Maggie
 
To ensure that everyone responding to the thread knows exactly what Margaret MacDonald actually said, here is a copy of her written testimony:

MARGARET’S REVELATION

"It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just ‘no God.’

I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men’s hearts failing them for fear. Now look out for the sign of the Son of Man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is.

I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father’s glory.

I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people.

Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, ‘Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.’

‘But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.’ This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye.

Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air.

I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then [note: no imminency teaching here!] shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold.

I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must he, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom.
 
(cont)
I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be.
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I felt as Elijah, surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun that shone round about me. I** felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. ****
**
I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that it it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - [This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus]; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will he shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold.
 
(cont)
I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God’s truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit.

The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he - when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will he outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out.
 
(cont)

I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within -be clay in the hands of the potter -submit to be filled, filled with God. This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb.

I saw it to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus, who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enters in he shall find pasture. They were bypassing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God.

When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God’s holiness, and a ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross.

I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy holy image seen in his people - just the bride made comely by his comeliness put upon her.

This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry.

Amen and Amen Even so come Lord Jesus.’’
 
I have highlighted that section of Margaret’s revelation that has been taken and misused into becoming what we know as Dispensationalism. I will look up more detail into how Darby and Scofield got hold of this revelation and how they twisted it, coming up with their doctrine of men.

It is suffice to say that Margaret MacDonald herself never intended this false doctrine to spread like wildfire. I will verify her involvement with the Plymouth Brethren for they are the ones responsible for the twisting of Margaret’s revelation.

MaggieOH
 
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Ozzie:
They’re in Heaven, and yes, they came out of the great Tribulation. That is, they died during that terrible time on earth. They’re believers but they’re NOT part of the Church (the true Church), the Bride of Christ, that was taken up to be with the Lord before the Tribulation period began.
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Sso, there are Christians who are not part of the Church? Where did you get this controted concept? Being a Christian is being a part of the Body of Christ. They are one in the same.
 
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MaggieOH:
First point: Daniel refers to Jesus.
Second point: I have doen more research than you have.

Maggie
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“Research” on the internet, Maggie??? Tell me, PLEASE, what books have you read by credible scholars? Anyone can look up articles on the internet and learn to cut and paste.

On what do you base your assertion that you’ve done more “reseach” than I? Do you know me? Have you been to my house? Have you seen my library? Do you know my schooling?
 
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MaggieOH:
I have highlighted that section of Margaret’s revelation that has been taken and misused into becoming what we know as Dispensationalism. I will look up more detail into how Darby and Scofield got hold of this revelation and how they twisted it, coming up with their doctrine of men.

It is suffice to say that Margaret MacDonald herself never intended this false doctrine to spread like wildfire. I will verify her involvement with the Plymouth Brethren for they are the ones responsible for the twisting of Margaret’s revelation.

MaggieOH
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Right on Maggie. My research revealed the same info!

👍
 
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Scott_Lafrance:
Sso, there are Christians who are not part of the Church? Where did you get this controted concept? Being a Christian is being a part of the Body of Christ. They are one in the same.
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All believers during this Church age (while Christ is building His Church) are part of the Body/Bride of Christ. The true Church is a separate entity and has a unique relationship with the Son, being the Bride of Christ. Beleivers AFTER the Rapture are saved Jews and Gentiles, but not part of the Church.

Have you done any reading on Dispensationalism? A lot of opinions here, but NO readers.
 
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