Myths and fairy tales ?

[Robintrinket]

Here you go John:
**
COMMUNION AND STEWARDSHIP:**

Human Persons Created in the Image of God

**63. ** “According to the widely accepted scientific account, the universe erupted 15 billion years ago in an explosion called the “Big Bang” and has been expanding and cooling ever since. Later there gradually emerged the conditions necessary for the formation of atoms, still later the condensation of galaxies and stars, and about 10 billion years later the formation of planets. In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5-4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html

“According to” is the important phrase here. Of course, that is what happened “according to the widely accepted scientific account”. “Virtually” is a word used in advertising to keep the company out of trouble if a product doesn’t do what it claims it does!

 

[Robintrinket]

Evolution is far stronger in 2010 than it was when Darwin first proposed it in 1859. That is why biologists use the theory. If it were weak they would jettison it and turn to something else.

How is evolution “far stronger” in 2010 than 1859? Every time they find a weakness in it, they just change it again, because they are certain it *must *have happened. What is in continual evolution is the theory of evolution!

 

[Robintrinket]

Here you go John:
**
COMMUNION AND STEWARDSHIP:**

Human Persons Created in the Image of God

**63. ** “According to the widely accepted scientific account, the universe erupted 15 billion years ago in an explosion called the “Big Bang” and has been expanding and cooling ever since. Later there gradually emerged the conditions necessary for the formation of atoms, still later the condensation of galaxies and stars, and about 10 billion years later the formation of planets. In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5-4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html

I will also add that this was written by a commision. Do you have an encyclical by the Pope using his teaching authority, like Humani Generis, in which a recent Pope accepted or endorsed evolution? Cardinal Razinger was apparently president of the commision, but he was not Pope at the time.

Not that this document even endorses it; it uses phrases and words like “according to”, “virtually”, “convincing case”, and “general agreement among”, so it never really says evolution definitely happened. As I said before, those kinds of words and phrases are used all the time in advertising to keep companies out of trouble; they aren’t really claiming anything about their products! “This will make virtually all stains disappear!” “Most dentists recommend…” “Recent studies show that…” None of these kinds of statements actually claim that the toothpaste *will * make your teeth whiter. (I’m surprised the document didn’t add, “Evolution is ‘99.9%’ certain to have happened!”)

 

[Robintrinket]

That is one of the most accurate statements you have made on this thread. They can’t prove it, because they weren’t there; they know it *must *have happened, because they think something “silly” like creation couldn’t have happened. They want to believe something “sensible”, like we all evolved from germs. At least that would be “natural”, they think!

 

[StAnastasia]

How is evolution “far stronger” in 2010 than 1859? Every time they find a weakness in it, they just change it again, because they are certain it *must *have happened. What is in continual evolution is the theory of evolution!

Evolution is far stronger because we understand how new species come about by understanding mechanisms such as heritability, genetic drift, endosymbiosis, and selective pressures.

If you don’t believe me, read widely in Nature, Science, or some of the hundreds of other journals related to evolutionary biology. Compare the number of articles you find on evolution with the number you find on miracles, magic, Noah’s flood, and a hexaemeral creation. That will tell you something about the relative explanatory strength of evolutionary vs. biblical theories. Old Testament explanations just don’t cut it anymore with biochemists or biogeographers.

StAnastasia

 

[StAnastasia]

That is one of the most accurate statements you have made on this thread. They can’t prove it, because they weren’t there; they know it *must *have happened, because they think something “silly” like creation couldn’t have happened. They want to believe something “sensible”, like we all evolved from germs. At least that would be “natural”, they think!

Robintrinket, you don’t understand how science works. You keep arguing that it is about proof, which it is not.

 

[Robintrinket]

Again not my opinion but the Judaic view.

You mean that is your opinion of the Judaic view.

 

[Robintrinket]

Robintrinket, you don’t understand how science works. You keep arguing that it is about proof, which it is not.

Then if it is not about proof, why isn’t creation “scientific”? You can’t disprove creation; no one was there. What I am arguing is that no one can prove evolution is fact. In that one statement, you apparently agreed with me on that.

 

[John_oxios]

Science doesn’t seek proof; it seeks to falsify hypotheses. If you look for “proof” of evolution you will never find it, because that is not what scientists look for. Scientists look for evidence that can falsify their hypotheses. The less evidence they find to falsify a hypothesis or theory, the stronger it becomes. Evolution is far stronger in 2010 than it was when Darwin first proposed it in 1859. That is why biologists use the theory. If it were weak they would jettison it and turn to something else.

Evidence of, show me something of one kind that evolved to a different kind of being.Find the missing link to some form of being?

So now, we are to accept a hypothesis and if Science can’t prove it wrong, it becomes proven?
In others words the burden is on the person who doesn’t believe in Evolution, to prove it isn’t a correct theory?

Evolution may be far stronger in 2010, it is used as an excuse to teach creationism in our Schools, it used also as an excuse to keep prayer out of schools, it is used as an excuse to edge God out.

talk about double speak!

The main problem with that theory of theory, is no one can falsify Evolution, because, its philosophy has a gigantic loop hole in it… when this doesn’t work… why not ___! It can’t ever die out because you’ll always come up with the new improved way to keep it alive.

If you want to tell me there are similarities between species written in their DNA codes fine, but it doesn’t suggest they we all evolved from one particle.

Similarity is not Sameness

Darwin didn’t develop the idea evolution it was around pre Christian pagan, times:
Ancient Greek philosophers such as Anaximander (
610 b.c.) postulated the development of life from non-life and the evolutionary descent of man from animal. Charles Darwin simply brought something new to the old philosophy – a plausible mechanism called "natural selection.

www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com/
Darwin’s Theory of Evolution - Slowly But Surely…
Darwin’s Theory of Evolution is a slow gradual process. Darwin wrote, “…Natural selection acts only by taking advantage of slight successive variations; she can never take a great and sudden leap, but must advance by short and sure, though slow steps.” [1] Thus, Darwin conceded that, “If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” [2] Such a complex organ would be known as an “irreducibly complex system”. An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If even one part is missing, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. [3] Thus, such a system could not have evolved slowly, piece by piece. The common mousetrap is an everyday non-biological example of irreducible complexity. It is composed of five basic parts: a catch (to hold the bait), a powerful spring, a thin rod called “the hammer,” a holding bar to secure the hammer in place, and a platform to mount the trap. If any one of these parts is missing, the mechanism will not work. Each individual part is integral. The mousetrap is irreducibly complex. [4]

If a mousetrap can be concluded to be irreducibly complex?

Let’s go back to:
The basic elements of nature (water, air, fire, earth) which the first Greek philosophers believed that constituted the universe represent in fact the primordial forces of previous thought.

Hmmm fire good, God is good it , doesn’t get any than that, who needs a theory of Evolution.
if you ever felt God working in your life… you know and recognize him as Creator, and us as his creature.
God bless,
John

 

[Robintrinket]

The point of the post is to show that the Satan and devils were not a doctrine from the beginning of the Bible.It evolved-the concept that God did everything -Good or bad is very much in evidence.Since God was creator of all things then He was responsible for all things. The idea of an force outside of God that could compel bad actions would have seemed odd to them- to have a force outside of YHWH that could cause such havoc would be to give that entity a somewhat godlike power…YHWH was all -in all-nothing outside His realm was to be feared or taken seriously.Just as the pagan deities were first seen as sub par to YHWH(as when YHWH challenges the gods of Egypt in Exodus)then according to the prophets these deities become “no-gods” just clay and metal- of no account and no power. This alters during the Christian era when pagan deities become tied to demons and devils by the ECF-thus giving them an import they do not deserve and power they do not own…That their are spirits and demons around-yes. But some out there sound as if God has lost His Predominance and that the devil has an equal or semi equal powers.NO and no.They speak of the world as something evil and deadly to the soul-it can be only if we let it but God made out of nothing , everything and He called it “good”. I don’t believe that fact has ever been rescinded.

Then what was sin supposed to be? Sin was obviously was not thought of as coming from God, because God punished people for sin. If good and evil both were thought of as coming from God, why did God punish evildoers in these books? What difference would it have made if Job were good or bad?

 

[John_oxios]

How is evolution “far stronger” in 2010 than 1859? Every time they find a weakness in it, they just change it again, because they are certain it *must *have happened. What is in continual evolution is the theory of evolution!

Everytime they can falsify the theory, they revive it with another idea, kind of like those guys always predicting the end of times, when the date passes, they say ohh it was a significant date, and then pick another date… its called the revolving end of times… so it is with Evolution, it is the revolving beginnings of our times outside of biblical Creation. As far as the end of times is concerned the Catholic Church has never been wrong, No one knows the day or hour… and on Evolution no one can pretend to know the mind of God, or his ways.

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

The point of the post is to show that the Satan and devils were not a doctrine from the beginning of the Bible. It evolved-the concept that God did everything -Good or bad is very much in evidence.
Since God was creator of all things then He was responsible for all things. The idea of an force outside of God that could compel bad actions would have seemed odd to them- to have a force outside of YHWH that could cause such havoc would be to give that entity a somewhat godlike power…YHWH was all -in all-nothing outside His realm was to be feared or taken seriously.Just as the pagan deities were first seen as sub par to YHWH(as when YHWH challenges the gods of Egypt in Exodus)then according to the prophets these deities become “no-gods” just clay and metal- of no account and no power.

This alters during the Christian era when pagan deities become tied to demons and devils by the ECF-thus giving them an import they do not deserve and power they do not own…That their are spirits and demons around-yes. But some out there sound as if God has lost His Predominance and that the devil has an equal or semi equal powers.NO and no.They speak of the world as something evil and deadly to the soul-it can be only if we let it but God made out of nothing , everything and He called it “good”. I don’t believe that fact has ever been rescinded.

Hi Julia,
The above ought to turn a few heads! Where do you get this stuff from? What is the ‘ECF’
Jesus and all the apostles were Jews, What of, the man with the unclean spirit? Mk 5:1-13, demons recognize Jesus, enter pigs, and jump over a cliff.
Demons are real,
Pharaoh priests/magicians produced snakes from a staff Ex 7:11(ff)

Angels are real. Heaven is real as well as hell.
See Jacobs ladder, he also wrestles with an angel. Abraham is visited by Angels.

Read Wisdom 14:12- idols emerged from vanity, then read ch 13:11 (ff)

Show me where God does bad, show me in Jewish commentary where God creates bad or is evil? That would be a Gnostic notion "the God of the O.T was Evil"

Sorry God is good all the time, Evil is a consequence of not obeying God. Every decision carries a consequence there are good consequences and bad.
We are all born with the inclination to do good, but selfishness creeps in very early and we need to be taught how to act and share.

If We make God responsible for all things, than there is no free will.

Wisdom 1:13,
Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living. For he fashioned all things that they might have being; nd the creatures of the world are wholesome… vesrse 16 "it was the wicked who with his hands and words invited death…

God gave man the law to point him to his wrongdoing, (read your Bible, you’ll find man breaking all ten of the commandments in Genesis) it tells him what to do , but gives them no power to do it, it was given to reveal his sin not to be his savior. IN Christ we are given strength to help ius overcome our sinful ways.

As far as pagan deities appearing in Exodus? Demons are real! What is spiritual warfare?

Who is YHWH speaking to when He says: Because you have done this, cursed are you among all animals? Who will crush his head some 2000 yrs later?

The idols had no power, because they were made by man’s hand, but there was a demonic power in the world. There is demonic principalities,
Eph 6:12 For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places"

Idols originally came from pride of man, Idols are anything we hold dear in our heart which crowd God out… remember Abraham and Isaac?

If you look at the story of the fall, You’ll have a tree, a man, woman and good and evil. @ Christ Crucifixion He becomes a curse by hanging on a tree, he is the new Adam, Mary the New Eve, God uses the very same symbols of the fall to overcome spiritual death to save us (Coincidence?) whether ya want to call these Jewish or Christian, The Catholic Church is Judaism coming to full circle.
Doesn’t Evil rear ups its head again in Noah’s son, Ham, father of Canaan? (Gen 9: 22 Are we to blame that on God?
As far as Abraham goes, He brought back the worship of the one true God, and if you don’t think demons existed back then?

God doesn’t punish us in our sin we punish ourselves!
Wisdom 1:12, Court not death by the erring way of life, nor to draw destruction to yourself by the works of your hands. (Book of wisdom written 100 years before Christ).

Blindness of judgement is one of the effects of sin.

Heard this one ten years ago:
Sin will take you farther than you want to go!
Sin will keep you longer than you want to stay!
Sin will cost you more than you’ll want to pay!

Our sin separates us from God, from our loved ones from our community. We do it to ourselves!

Can you actually blame God for Evil? Jesus died as a ransom for a debt he didn’t owe; Jesus died paying a debt we could never pay.

We turn away from him in our sin, he waits patiently and offers no resistance, all the resistance is in us (See James 5:6).

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

Then what was sin supposed to be? Sin was obviously was not thought of as coming from God, because God punished people for sin. If good and evil both were thought of as coming from God, why did God punish evildoers in these books? What difference would it have made if Job were good or bad?

Hi Robin,
Every act of God is an act of mercy, God sent Adam and Eve out of the garden not as a punishment. God sent them out to prevent them from eating of the tree of eternal life, which would make them eternally damned. The hardships were a consequence of disobeying God. In our sin God allows harm to come to us, never without warning. It is in our suffering we turn to Him. If we didn’t suffer and lived a ‘perfect’ life, than we would have no reason to turn to God.

God bless,
John

 

[Bob_Crowley]

It is a rather new trend. I may look into researching and writing an article on “The rise of literal biblical interpretation among recent converts to Roman Catholicism.”

I’m Catholic, former Protestant, with a couple of disagreements with Catholic doctrine.

When you’ve got from a culture which places it’s emphasis on the Bible, rather than tradition, then simply changing to “Catholic” does not change one’s whole outlook.

I’m sympathetic to Creationism, for a number of reasons. I may well be wrong, but one thing that evolution believing Christians never do is to propose the origin of sin, of which man alone is guilty. Where’s the dividing line between his supposed innocent animal ancestors and his guilt?

That sin is a reality is not in dispute. Five minutes honest introspection and a glance at today’s news will show unavoidable evidence of that fact. We are the only species which routinely engages in mass murder of its own kind.

If we “evolved” where did this schizophrenic, self-destructive morality come from? Why the human race above all?

 

[edwest2]

I’m Catholic, former Protestant, with a couple of disagreements with Catholic doctrine.

When you’ve got from a culture which places it’s emphasis on the Bible, rather than tradition, then simply changing to “Catholic” does not change one’s whole outlook.

I’m sympathetic to Creationism, for a number of reasons. I may well be wrong, but one thing that evolution believing Christians never do is to propose the origin of sin, of which man alone is guilty. Where’s the dividing line between his supposed innocent animal ancestors and his guilt?

That sin is a reality is not in dispute. Five minutes honest introspection and a glance at today’s news will show unavoidable evidence of that fact. We are the only species which routinely engages in mass murder of its own kind.

If we “evolved” where did this schizophrenic, self-destructive morality come from? Why the human race above all?

Hello Bob,

You’re absolutely right. We each carry the fatal flaw.

I will warn you though. Science wishes to explain it all. Evolutionary psychology tells us that our neurological development simply allowed us to detect a god(s) concept one day, purely as a survival mechanism. Today, because we’ve become so smart, we can throw the god(s) concept away. Richard Dawkins is among those leading the charge for this bit of science fiction.

Stick to the Bible and Church teaching and you’ll be fine. Science is incapable of answering the real reason for the ontological leap to man. You’ll be seeing other stories appear in the future, I’m sure.

Peace,
Ed

 

[StAnastasia]

I’m sympathetic to Creationism, for a number of reasons. I may well be wrong, but one thing that evolution believing Christians never do is to propose the origin of sin, of which man alone is guilty. Where’s the dividing line between his supposed innocent animal ancestors and his guilt? That sin is a reality is not in dispute. Five minutes honest introspection and a glance at today’s news will show unavoidable evidence of that fact. We are the only species which routinely engages in mass murder of its own kind. If we “evolved” where did this schizophrenic, self-destructive morality come from? Why the human race above all?

Bob Crowley, most biologists I know have no doubts that “sin” exists. But they need not deny science to explain it. As humans evolved out of their hominid ancestry they developed moral sensitivity and spiritual awareness. Concommitant with this came an understanding of sin, and the human response to God.

StAnastasia

 

[Robintrinket]

Bob Crowley, most biologists I know have no doubts that “sin” exists. But they need not deny science to explain it. As humans evolved out of their hominid ancestry they developed moral sensitivity and spiritual awareness. Concommitant with this came an understanding of sin, and the human response to God.

StAnastasia

You are implying that the human soul “evolved” from a lower animal. In Humani Generis, this view is condemned in paragraph 36. It says that the Teaching Authority “does not forbid that…research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter–for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.”

 

[Robintrinket]

Hi Robin,
Every act of God is an act of mercy, God sent Adam and Eve out of the garden not as a punishment. God sent them out to prevent them from eating of the tree of eternal life, which would make them eternally damned. The hardships were a consequence of disobeying God. In our sin God allows harm to come to us, never without warning. It is in our suffering we turn to Him. If we didn’t suffer and lived a ‘perfect’ life, than we would have no reason to turn to God.

God bless,
John

Thank you. I wasn’t agreeing with the person who said that early Judaism believed that both good and evil came from God, though, I was just saying how could you say the Jews believed that when God clearly punished evildoers. He wouldn’t have punished evildoers if evil came from Him. The good Job was His faithful servant, meaning He was thought of as good in that book.

 

[Robintrinket]

Bob Crowley, most biologists I know have no doubts that “sin” exists. But they need not deny science to explain it.

StAnastasia

How is rejecting one theory (that even you said is not proven) in favor of another equivalent to denying science?

 

[StAnastasia]

How is rejecting one theory (that even you said is not proven) in favor of another equivalent to denying science?

Evolution is accepted by virtually all working biologists as the most cogent explanation for the diversity of life on earth. Rejecting this comprehensive theory – especially in favor of the prescientific creation story of an ancient desert tribe – would be an irrational rejection of science.

StAnastasia