N.T Wright and John Piper Disagreement?

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I’ve recently read about disagreements from two prominent Protestants, John Piper and N.T. Wright. I’ve read into it a little and all I can come up with is something to do with Calvinism - something to the effect that Wright isn’t Calvinistic enough for Piper, but again that just my conclusion after very brief readings into this. Anyone have the story on this “feud” and what exactly is the issue?
 
Hi. I can’t add anything. But I am glad you prompted me to do some homework.

My brother is dabbling in the Emergent Church and some of these offshoots. In only a few minutes I can see utter chaos around the edges of Protestantism.
 
Wright is an Anglican Bishop, and generally considered conservative. Piper is a conservative Baptist and Calvinist. I understand their disagreement is over the New Perspective on Paul, an interpretation of Paul’s writings that Wright shares with some other scholars. I don’t know the details of it, but it’s something I mean to look into, as I am a big fan of Wright’s. I’m not quite so fond of Piper, but he has some good points and it is possible he’s right on this one… but I’ve never known Wright to take a position that wasn’t at least logical and well thought out.

Oh, and Edward H: Neither Wright nor Piper has any connection with the Emergent Church that I know of, nor any reputation for being a supporter of it.
 
I’ve recently read about disagreements from two prominent Protestants, John Piper and N.T. Wright. I’ve read into it a little and all I can come up with is something to do with Calvinism - something to the effect that Wright isn’t Calvinistic enough for Piper, but again that just my conclusion after very brief readings into this. Anyone have the story on this “feud” and what exactly is the issue?
Wright is probably the most evangelical representative of the “New Perspective” on Paul, which argues basically that the Reformers got Paul wrong. The NP folks have a lot of different ways of approaching Paul, but they all tend to stress Paul’s Jewishness and to argue that Paul was more concerned with the question of membership in the covenant community rather than the question of how an individual’s sins can be forgiven. They argue that Second Temple Jews did not believe in “works righteousness” and so this pretty clearly was not Paul’s target.

Conservative evangelical theologians, especially Calvinists, are upset by this, because it seems to take out the exegetical foundations of sola fide. (Wright claims not to be attacking sola fide, by the way.) John Piper is probably the most prominent person who has taken Wright on over this. Wright’s original exposition of the NP is What did Saint Paul Really Say? Piper responded with The Future of Justification, and Wright shot back with Justification: God’s Plan and Paul’s Vision.

The basic disagreement lies with the idea of imputation. Wright says that the idea of imputing one person’s righteousness to another is completely alien to first-century thought and is a “muddle-headed” way of talking about justification. Piper and other conservative evangelicals see this as taking out the heart of the Gospel.

An interesting feature of the debate (similar to other debates among evangelicals in recent years), which Wright points out in Justification, is that Piper is defending the substance of the Reformers’ teaching while Wright is claiming to be more faithful to the principle of sola scriptura, by challenging the Reformers where he thinks they got Scripture wrong.

In answer to Edward H and lzdaari: no, Wright isn’t part of the “Emerging Church,” but he tends to be a hero to the “younger evangelicals” who are challenging traditional Protestant theology and want to see more focus on ethics and social action. Some of these folks would identify themselves as “emerging,” while others are lumped in with the “emerging church” by their conservative critics.

Edwin
 
Nice summary. Wright seems to me a much better theologian, historian and biblical scholar, so Piper’s objections fall pretty flat.
 
Wright is probably the most evangelical representative of the “New Perspective” on Paul, which argues basically that the Reformers got Paul wrong. The NP folks have a lot of different ways of approaching Paul, but they all tend to stress Paul’s Jewishness and to argue that Paul was more concerned with the question of membership in the covenant community rather than the question of how an individual’s sins can be forgiven. They argue that Second Temple Jews did not believe in “works righteousness” and so this pretty clearly was not Paul’s target.

Conservative evangelical theologians, especially Calvinists, are upset by this, because it seems to take out the exegetical foundations of sola fide. (Wright claims not to be attacking sola fide, by the way.) John Piper is probably the most prominent person who has taken Wright on over this. Wright’s original exposition of the NP is What did Saint Paul Really Say? Piper responded with The Future of Justification, and Wright shot back with Justification: God’s Plan and Paul’s Vision.

The basic disagreement lies with the idea of imputation. Wright says that the idea of imputing one person’s righteousness to another is completely alien to first-century thought and is a “muddle-headed” way of talking about justification. Piper and other conservative evangelicals see this as taking out the heart of the Gospel.

An interesting feature of the debate (similar to other debates among evangelicals in recent years), which Wright points out in Justification, is that Piper is defending the substance of the Reformers’ teaching while Wright is claiming to be more faithful to the principle of sola scriptura, by challenging the Reformers where he thinks they got Scripture wrong.

In answer to Edward H and lzdaari: no, Wright isn’t part of the “Emerging Church,” but he tends to be a hero to the “younger evangelicals” who are challenging traditional Protestant theology and want to see more focus on ethics and social action. Some of these folks would identify themselves as “emerging,” while others are lumped in with the “emerging church” by their conservative critics.

Edwin
Very helpful, thank you! 👍

And though I’m not all that young, and not all that liberal either, I probably am part of that group of “younger evangelicals”. And I do identify with the “emerging church” though not with Emergent. The difference is the latter refers specifically to the Emergent Village, and that group is far too liberal for me, both theologically and politically.
 
Wright is an Anglican Bishop, and generally considered conservative. Piper is a conservative Baptist and Calvinist. I understand their disagreement is over the New Perspective on Paul, an interpretation of Paul’s writings that Wright shares with some other scholars. I don’t know the details of it, but it’s something I mean to look into, as I am a big fan of Wright’s. I’m not quite so fond of Piper, but he has some good points and it is possible he’s right on this one… but I’ve never known Wright to take a position that wasn’t at least logical and well thought out.

Oh, and Edward H: Neither Wright nor Piper has any connection with the Emergent Church that I know of, nor any reputation for being a supporter of it.
Ok, sorry…In trying to school up on this topic…I took a look at some youtube videos last night and I must have clicked on some suggested/related videos and gotten confused.

My brother has moved Emergent…and I am worried about him. He no longer believes in the Trinity - and so he no longer believes in the divinity of Jesus. Dominoes are falling.
 
Ok, sorry…In trying to school up on this topic…I took a look at some youtube videos last night and I must have clicked on some suggested/related videos and gotten confused.

My brother has moved Emergent…and I am worried about him. He no longer believes in the Trinity - and so he no longer believes in the divinity of Jesus. Dominoes are falling.
Um, yeah, that would be the Emergent Village crowd, who are very liberal both theologically and politically, and who think doctrine is completely unimportant. But not all “emerging church” people think like them.
 
Wright is probably the most evangelical representative of the “New Perspective” on Paul, which argues basically that the Reformers got Paul wrong. The NP folks have a lot of different ways of approaching Paul, but they all tend to stress Paul’s Jewishness and to argue that Paul was more concerned with the question of membership in the covenant community rather than the question of how an individual’s sins can be forgiven. They argue that Second Temple Jews did not believe in “works righteousness” and so this pretty clearly was not Paul’s target.

Conservative evangelical theologians, especially Calvinists, are upset by this, because it seems to take out the exegetical foundations of sola fide. (Wright claims not to be attacking sola fide, by the way.) John Piper is probably the most prominent person who has taken Wright on over this. Wright’s original exposition of the NP is What did Saint Paul Really Say? Piper responded with The Future of Justification, and Wright shot back with Justification: God’s Plan and Paul’s Vision.

The basic disagreement lies with the idea of imputation. Wright says that the idea of imputing one person’s righteousness to another is completely alien to first-century thought and is a “muddle-headed” way of talking about justification. Piper and other conservative evangelicals see this as taking out the heart of the Gospel.

An interesting feature of the debate (similar to other debates among evangelicals in recent years), which Wright points out in Justification, is that Piper is defending the substance of the Reformers’ teaching while Wright is claiming to be more faithful to the principle of sola scriptura, by challenging the Reformers where he thinks they got Scripture wrong.

In answer to Edward H and lzdaari: no, Wright isn’t part of the “Emerging Church,” but he tends to be a hero to the “younger evangelicals” who are challenging traditional Protestant theology and want to see more focus on ethics and social action. Some of these folks would identify themselves as “emerging,” while others are lumped in with the “emerging church” by their conservative critics.

Edwin
Thanks for summary of the the two theological camps on this issue - I’ll have to read up on this further
 
Ok, sorry…In trying to school up on this topic…I took a look at some youtube videos last night and I must have clicked on some suggested/related videos and gotten confused.

My brother has moved Emergent…and I am worried about him. He no longer believes in the Trinity - and so he no longer believes in the divinity of Jesus. Dominoes are falling.
Edward H,
N.T. Wright is not among those who no longer believe in the Trinity or the Divinity of Christ.

That is very clear in Wright’s book Surprised by Hope, Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church. I can’t say that I agree with every word he wrote in this book, but I think for the most part, “Wright got it right.” 😉

Peace,
Anna
 
Wright played a prominent role in the “Jesus Seminar”, correct?
No, he is not affiliated with the Jesus Seminar. In fact, he is very critical of it. However, his friends Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan are very prominent members of the Jesus Seminar. That said, Wright is involved in historical Jesus studies. His conclusions are usually conservative and favor orthodoxy.
 
Wright played a prominent role in the “Jesus Seminar”, correct?
No, he is not affiliated with the Jesus Seminar. In fact, he is very critical of it. However, his friends Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan are very prominent members of the Jesus Seminar. That said, Wright is involved in historical Jesus studies. His conclusions are usually conservative and favor orthodoxy.
T More,
I appreciate your post.

N.T. Wright is critical of the Jesus Seminar; and you are right–his conclusions are usually conservative and favor orthodoxy, including his stance against the ordination of those in same-sex relationships and blessing same-sex unions.

He believes that Jesus is the Son of God, was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, literally resurrected, appeared to many, and ascended to the Father. IOW, the Nicene Creed, which we Anglicans profess every Sunday, means what it says.

Peace,
Anna
 
No, he is not affiliated with the Jesus Seminar. In fact, he is very critical of it. However, his friends Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan are very prominent members of the Jesus Seminar. That said, Wright is involved in historical Jesus studies. His conclusions are usually conservative and favor orthodoxy.
BTW, I love the quote in your signature line. 😃

Anna
 
T More,
I appreciate your post.

N.T. Wright is critical of the Jesus Seminar; and you are right–his conclusions are usually conservative and favor orthodoxy, including his stance against the ordination of those in same-sex relationships and blessing same-sex unions.

He believes that Jesus is the Son of God, was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, literally resurrected, appeared to many, and ascended to the Father. IOW, the Nicene Creed, which we Anglicans profess every Sunday, means what it says.

Peace,
Anna
I would also remind people that Wright is also a champion of WO. I happen to agree with him but I mention this so people realize he’s not entirely what most on here would consider orthodox. If your interested you can probably find his argument for WO by Googling it, takes little work but worth the effort is think.
 
I would also remind people that Wright is also a champion of WO. I happen to agree with him but I mention this so people realize he’s not entirely what most on here would consider orthodox. If your interested you can probably find his argument for WO by Googling it, takes little work but worth the effort is think.
neophyte here.

What’s WO?
 
Women’s Ordination
That would be a point in his favor from my perspective: mainstream Pentecostals, such as Assemblies of God (my church) and Foursquare agree with it. So does Wright’s own Church of England, though there are dissenters.
 
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