Naked pictures to spouse

[The_Bucket]

What about perfect love?

We are all fallen human beings and thus incapable of perfect love. The marital union may be a reflection of the unity of the Persons of God but it is an imperfect reflection. Even among the purest of hearts it is still an imperfect reflection.

And clem, pornography is objectively wrong, yes. However would you argue that a police officer who has to review evidence in a child molestation case is committing sin by viewing child pornography? Or what about a sexual assault case where the suspect has a huge cache of porn and they have to figure out the guy’s M.O. based on the fetishes he likes or something?

Pornography in an of itself is an objective evil. But there are circumstances where viewing it would NOT be sinful such as in the case of accidental viewing or when it’s viewed in order to do a job like law enforcement. The sin then is not on the viewer but still remains on the producer of the material.

 

[johnnyjones]

Saint Valentines would sound even better.

 

[sstrider]

We are all fallen human beings and thus incapable of perfect love. The marital union may be a reflection of the unity of the Persons of God but it is an imperfect reflection. Even among the purest of hearts it is still an imperfect reflection.

And clem, pornography is objectively wrong, yes. However would you argue that a police officer who has to review evidence in a child molestation case is committing sin by viewing child pornography? Or what about a sexual assault case where the suspect has a huge cache of porn and they have to figure out the guy’s M.O. based on the fetishes he likes or something?

Pornography in an of itself is an objective evil. But there are circumstances where viewing it would NOT be sinful such as in the case of accidental viewing or when it’s viewed in order to do a job like law enforcement. The sin then is not on the viewer but still remains on the producer of the material.

Hi

Didn’t some people have perfect love?

Pius XII, Fulgens Radiatur, 20

Benedict proclaims these most holy precepts to his followers: “Let special care be taken in receiving the poor and travelers, because in them Christ is more surely received”.[37] “Let all guests who come to the monastery be entertained like Christ Himself, because He will say ‘I was a stranger and you took me in’.”[38] “Before all things and above all things, special care must be taken of the sick, so that they be served in very deed as Christ Himself for He saith ‘I was sick and you visited Me’.”[39] Thus animated and burning with a perfect love of God and the neighbor he fulfilled and perfected his task (bold added)

 

[Debora123]

It’s so much easier to keep the flame going then it is to re light it and I couldn’t think of a better way.IMO, you can’t be pornographic with your wife if you love her the way God intended. I think that’s why He gave you a body, to remind him of all your other qualities and it’s good to remind him of ALL those qualities.

 

[ffg]

You have a mistaken understanding of near occasion of sin. It is not just something that generally causes others to fall, it is something that you know is very likely to cause you personally to fall. People are different and have different strengths and different weaknessess. Some people when they see a pornographic image are simply disgusted, they are not tempted to lust after the person in the image, but instead feel disgust for the wrongfulness involved and pity for the people involved in it. For such people a pornographic image is not a near occasion of sin because it does not make it likely that they will fall into mortal sin. Similarly, being around desserts is a near occasion of sin for some, but not others. Some people have great self-control in this regard and others are completely lacking. This is why it is so important to honestly and prayerfully examine oneself to learn ones own limits. there is truly great wisdom to that saying “know thyself”.

One more point about the near occasion of sin. It is not always and everywhere sinful to put oneself in the near occasion of sin. If one has a sufficient reason to need to do something which will put them in a near occasion of sin than they may do so so long as they take every precaution they can to avoid said sin. the gravity of the reason to perform the action must be proportional to the strength of the temptation on a given person. So, for instance, a person who has a serious addiction to sweets and deserts. When they go into a certain grocery store they see the sales on sweets at the front and very often give in and buy tons of sweets and then go eat them all even though they know that doing such is sinful for them in their state of health etc. If that is the only store they can go to buy food then they are allowed to go in to buy their food even though it is a near occasion of sin for them personally. This same principle applies to other actions as well. We are called to prudent action, not to be paralyzed into inaction by fear.

Wow, again a whole lot not based on the OP’s question at all, perhaps start a new thread?

All this analysis is playing games with yourself and the spirit of the Church.

Absolutely there are sinful actions that are just that each and every time.

You just contradicted the act of confession, something said while in confession.

Then you tried to use entering a store to defend that contradiction.

 

[Debora123]

(… cont)

And this is where we disagree. You don’t see how a naked picture could ever possibly be a form of expressing a deep inner commitment. As such, I would strongly advise you never to send one and to make sure your spouse would never send you one. However, this just is not the case for everyone. Some (again, not all) people would actually see such a photo as a very deep and meaningful expression of their spouses commitment to themselves. I realize that if you are not that way it might be hard for you to recognize that this actually is true for other people, but it really is.

As I’ve explained, because there are some people for whom it is a better exprresion than merely saying “I love you”.

And here I am going to have to disagree with you. You seem to be implying that the natural context of nakedness is having sex. I see the natural context of nakedness as the marital relationship itself. Its ok to get changed in front of ones spouse, even when neither of you are thinking about, or planning on having sex, because nakedness is not something that belongs to sex, it belongs to the marital relationship.

There are such things as Josephite marriages.

But seriously, it sounds as though you are putting a little too much emphasis on sex. What happens to a couple where one of them is incapacitated such that they can no longer ever have sex. Is it now impossible for such a couple to ever express their commitment to each other? Are they doomed to a relationship that is no longer marital in nature? No, of course not, because sex is not the only way to adequately express ones complete and entire gift of self to spouse. It is extremely important, but just because such an expression becomes impossible a couple dos not then become incapable of expressing their commitment to each other. Sex is not the only way, although it is an extremely important way.

I would argue that the external would naturally follow from the internal, however, it will not always be in the form of having sex, as that is not the only way to express your commitment to your spouse.

That is not a reason that I gave, neither do I agree with you that sending naked photos automatically compromises the nuptial system.

Its sister actually, and don’t worry about it.

Wanderer, you are amazing.

 

[Debora123]

clem, I do appreciate where you’re coming from on here but thewanderer is right. There is no authoritative teaching on the matter. Where the Church is silent we are called to follow our own consciences and decide what is appropriate and prudent.

The same goes for certain marital acts so long as they don’t reach completion on the part of the husband. Some people think that, for instance, oral stimulation results in too much lust in the heart. Others (me for instance) find that to be nonsense or at least not applicable in my marriage. The Church has no teaching on the matter and thus we are called to follow what our consciences say and to listen to our spouses about what is or is not comfortable for them.

If, say, a husband pressured his wife into taking a photo, he would be in the wrong. Yes the bodies have been joined as one flesh, but that implies willful surrender. Not dominance. No dominance is allowed by either party. It has to be willful surrender. In this case you have a woman who is making this decision or at least floating the idea on her own accord, not because her husband is insisting that she do it. That’s willful surrender of her body.

We’ve gone over the potential imprudence and potential for near occasion of sin over and over again. But near occasion of sin is not the same as sin and what is a near occasion for one person is not for another. I mean, seeing an immodestly dressed woman is a near occasion of sin for me, but an immodestly dressed man is not a near occasion of sin for my wife. Not really anyway. Why? Because we respond to things differently. Heck, an unintentional viewing of pornography or a sex scene in a movie is a near occasion of sin for me but it’s repulsive to my wife.

One cannot project his own propensities onto others.

The Church’s teachings on chastity are found in the Catechism as you well know and can be seen here: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm

There is absolutely nothing referring to the photography of one spouse to give to another. Or even of making videos of one another or of spouses together provided that they are kept in-house. It’s all about the creation for the purpose of sending them to third parties.

There’s nothing there that says “It’s A-OK to take photos of yourself and send them to your spouse” but there’s nothing there that such an action would be illicit. And I bet it’s because there is no illusion when it comes to your spouse. There’s no fantasy world. It’s reality. The two are one and are one even when separated. Provided that there is no intent to send anything to third parties, there’s no offense.

Again, I wouldn’t personally do it because I’m not much to look at and don’t want such photos to exist. If my wife wants to send me one? Well… ok. I guess. I mean that’s great but I too am uncomfortable with the idea of someone else seeing it. And videos? NO THANKS and honestly my own porn addiction is actually the lowest of the reasons I don’t want a video. I see myself in the shower enough. I really don’t care to see any more.

 

[Debora123]

**Pornography is always and everywhere a near occasion of sin, by it’s nature. **
Something like drinkiing a beer is not, by it’s nature, always a near occasion of sin.
There is an objective factor involved.

I don’t know about that. It most certainly isn’t for me, though I’m not a guy. For what it’s worth, my husband is one of those people who looks at a pornographic image and feels disgust. So I agree that it’s not necessarily an occasion of sin for everyone. Though it’s still a horrible thing.

 

[johnnyjones]

Pornography is always and everywhere a near occasion of sin, by it’s nature.
Something like drinkiing a beer is not, by it’s nature, always a near occasion of sin.
There is an objective factor involved.

Yes, and our sexuality is innate. The sin of pornography hits closer to home for that reason. I think it is reasonably possible for a man to see a nude picture of his wife when he is at a great distance and take that occasion to wander off (sexual thoughts of nearby women). Is is guaranteed to happen ? No. It just promotes the thoughts.

If a married man is near his living area, or even a state away, and gets a naked picture of his wife, he knows he can respond to it soon. Not so with military life. Long distances, long time frames away. Although women know men are probably more sexualy driven than themselves, they tend to often lose sight of how much different sexuality is for men and underestimate it’s power. The greatest of men have fallen because of sex.

 

[thewanderer]

Hi

Is this Church teaching?

Does giving in a complete way always mean being open to the chance of a bad thing happening?

If the Father and Son give each to the other, are they open to a bad thing happening?

What about perfect love?

Well, we live in a fallen world, we are all human, and while on this earth we will always be sinners. It is a part of life in this world that we will fail and hurt others and they in turn will fail and hurt us. That doesn’t mean that we are all terrible or that this life is not worth living, but it is just a recognition of the failings and hardships we will have to deal with here on earth.

Because of this, when we give oursselves completely to another while still in this world there is always a chance they will fail in some way that will hurt us and that we will hurt them. Please understand that that is not a reason to avoid deep and meaningful relationships here on earth, but rather if one is faced with great difficulties due to the failings of ones spouse one must then remember to turn to Christ on the cross for comfort and consolation, ask him to shoulder our burden for us, and rest assured that even with all the failings in this world, He loves us unfailingly, endlessly, perfectly, with the greatest love of all, the love that is God Himself.

So, no, the different persons of the trinity do not ever have to be afraid of something bad happening.

Hi

Didn’t some people have perfect love?

Pius XII, Fulgens Radiatur, 20

Benedict proclaims these most holy precepts to his followers: “Let special care be taken in receiving the poor and travelers, because in them Christ is more surely received”.[37] “Let all guests who come to the monastery be entertained like Christ Himself, because He will say ‘I was a stranger and you took me in’.”[38] “Before all things and above all things, special care must be taken of the sick, so that they be served in very deed as Christ Himself for He saith ‘I was sick and you visited Me’.”[39] Thus animated and burning with a perfect love of God and the neighbor he fulfilled and perfected his task (bold added)

There are people here on earth who are certainly animated by this perfect divine love at least at times, but since they are still in this fallen world and state, they will still fall and sin, even the greatest saints recognized that they were still sinners.

 

[thewanderer]

Wow, again a whole lot not based on the OP’s question at all, perhaps start a new thread?

All this analysis is playing games with yourself and the spirit of the Church.

Absolutely there are sinful actions that are just that each and every time.

You just contradicted the act of confession, something said while in confession.

Then you tried to use entering a store to defend that contradiction.

I don’t see this as off-topic at all. It is addressing the claim that looking at a nude picture of ones spouse is always wrong because it is a near occasion of sin, which is kind of the subject of this thread.

I also really do not understand where you got the idea that I am somehow contradicting confession because of what I said? I just gave a more in depth explanation of Church teaching about the near occasion of sin, of course we are still supposed to avoid the near occasion of sin, that doesn’t change anything that I said, I have just been explaining the nuances of this teaching a little more so that one can better understand what we mean in the act of contrition when we say we will avoid the near occasion of sin, there are times when we don’t actually have to, if we have a good enough reason to do something that puts us there, its not something that is intrinsically wrong, but is wrong depending on the circumstances, just like many other sins.

 

[PatriceA]

Yes, and our sexuality is innate. The sin of pornography hits closer to home for that reason. I think it is reasonably possible for a man to see a nude picture of his wife when he is at a great distance and take that occasion to wander off (sexual thoughts of nearby women). Is is guaranteed to happen ? No. It just promotes the thoughts.

If a married man is near his living area, or even a state away, and gets a naked picture of his wife, he knows he can respond to it soon. Not so with military life. Long distances, long time frames away. Although women know men are probably more sexualy driven than themselves, they tend to often lose sight of how much different sexuality is for men and underestimate it’s power. The greatest of men have fallen because of sex.

And that goes back to what I said in an earlier post, no military couple fully knows or understands how they may change or what issues may present themselves as they endure long separations due to training exercises and deployments. Or even what can happen due to the every day wear and tear of military life. Its so easy to say that my husband would never do such and such, we have a strong marriage, this won’t be a problem…when you are just beginning your life as a military family.

I’ve witnessed military couples deal with alcoholism (either spouse), credit card debt, gambling problems, porn addictions, infidelity, etc, etc because they all thought they were immune to any of the problems that can occur due to being in the military. Its not wise to think it will NEVER happen to you. It is wise to be aware for the signs and if you ever have an inclination that you’re on a slippery slope, to get yourself to a place where you can work to fortify your marriage.

 

[Debora123]

And that goes back to what I said in an earlier post, no military couple fully knows or understands how they may change or what issues may present themselves as they endure long separations due to training exercises and deployments. Or even what can happen due to the every day wear and tear of military life. Its so easy to say that my husband would never do such and such, we have a strong marriage, this won’t be a problem…when you are just beginning your life as a military family.

I’ve witnessed military couples deal with alcoholism (either spouse), credit card debt, gambling problems, porn addictions, infidelity, etc, etc because they all thought they were immune to any of the problems that can occur due to being in the military. Its not wise to think it will NEVER happen to you. It is wise to be aware for the signs and if you ever have an inclination that you’re on a slippery slope, to get yourself to a place where you can work to fortify your marriage.

I kinda disagree with the bolded part.

I understand what you’re saying about being careful and all, and perhaps it’s just the way you put it… but it reminds me kinda of the secular view on marriage/divorce. You know, people saying things like “you can never say you’re never going to get a divorce, so it’s best to sign a prenup!”… and just the overall lack of faith in marriages in our culture now a days.

Does anyone else agree with that or at least understand what I’m saying?

A couple needs to go into a marriage, having mutual faith in each other and in themselves… after all, you do make a promise to GOD that you will remain true to this person through everything, and vice versa. So it seems kinda contradictory to make that promise to each other, and then still be thinking that one of you MIGHT cheat, or you MIGHT get a divorce.

Of course, we all still need to put a lot of work and energy into our marriage to keep it healthy, but that’s precisely it. We should trust ourselves and trust each other because we KNOW that we will keep “handling with care” when it comes to our marriage.

And yes, regardless of how much we truly believe things will work out, you never know what’s going to happen for sure. But I believe the first step to making it work is having an attitude of complete faith and 100% trust. It’s not healthy to be thinking that your spouse might cheat, or might become a pron addict, or a drug addict or something.

Or perhaps that’s not even what you were saying and I just completely misunderstood.

 

[Cariethra]

Nope, never. Nothing stays private. If it isn’t something I wouldn’t mind anyone seeing, it doesn’t get written, photographed, recorded. As for it being sinful, yes it could be. You have no idea who might happen to see it.

 

[atheistgirl]

Hi Debora

It was very interesting reading your thread and the responses you got and comparing them to what I was told when I asked a similar question.

Sarah x

 

[monicatholic]

i’m going to re-post part of my response to the boudoir photography thread. here’s why i would NOT take and send naked photos of myself to my husband:

i hate pornography. pornography hijacks the astonishing, fantastic awesomenss of marital sex and turns it into something ugly-- something that hurts people, ruins minds, distorts vision and blackens hearts. why then, would i, in turn, hijack the means and mode of pornography (i.e. sexual suggestion exhibited in photography or on film) to enhance my husband’s sexual arousal? i wouldn’t. if i want to make my husband’s experience of our intimacy better,*** i’m not going to mimic means that have proven so destructive to so many. ***

is this objective Church teaching? not precisely. (though i am informed by the catechism teaching on modesty. see below.) . my conclusion could be considered more discretionary and prudential than objective. what you will NOT find in my conclusion is sloppy justifications, NOR puritanical prudishness, because i think marital sex is the icing AND the cake.)

**

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.

**

 

[Debora123]

Hi Debora

It was very interesting reading your thread and the responses you got and comparing them to what I was told when I asked a similar question.

Sarah x

I got through the first page. Wow. I’m glad I only got a couple responses like that. I disagree entirely.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[CatholicFireman]

I kinda disagree with the bolded part.

I understand what you’re saying about being careful and all, and perhaps it’s just the way you put it… but it reminds me kinda of the secular view on marriage/divorce. You know, people saying things like “you can never say you’re never going to get a divorce, so it’s best to sign a prenup!”… and just the overall lack of faith in marriages in our culture now a days.

Does anyone else agree with that or at least understand what I’m saying?

A couple needs to go into a marriage, having mutual faith in each other and in themselves… after all, you do make a promise to GOD that you will remain true to this person through everything, and vice versa. So it seems kinda contradictory to make that promise to each other, and then still be thinking that one of you MIGHT cheat, or you MIGHT get a divorce.

Of course, we all still need to put a lot of work and energy into our marriage to keep it healthy, but that’s precisely it. We should trust ourselves and trust each other because we KNOW that we will keep “handling with care” when it comes to our marriage.

And yes, regardless of how much we truly believe things will work out, you never know what’s going to happen for sure. But I believe the first step to making it work is having an attitude of complete faith and 100% trust. It’s not healthy to be thinking that your spouse might cheat, or might become a pron addict, or a drug addict or something.

Or perhaps that’s not even what you were saying and I just completely misunderstood.

The temptations are out there and compounded in military life, but it’s no different in civilian life when the spouse is away. Definitely stay involved with your church. Falling away was common, especially for single airmen when I was in. . Don’t let peer pressure influence you. But then again, you strike me as grounded person. And stubborn

 

[Debora123]

i’m going to re-post part of my response to the boudoir photography thread. here’s why i would NOT take and send naked photos of myself to my husband:

i hate pornography. pornography hijacks the astonishing, fantastic awesomenss of marital sex and turns it into something ugly-- something that hurts people, ruins minds, distorts vision and blackens hearts. why then, would i, in turn, hijack the means and mode of pornography (i.e. sexual suggestion exhibited in photography or on film) to enhance my husband’s sexual arousal? i wouldn’t. if i want to make my husband’s experience of our intimacy better,*** i’m not going to mimic means that have proven so destructive to so many. ***

Hi Monica.

The problem I see with this is that, yes, nude photos can be used in a bad way (pornography), but then again, so can sex itself (premarital relations/prostitution).

You can’t compare sending your spouse a nude photo of yourself to pornography, just as you can’t compare the marital embrace to premarital sex or prostitution.

For the record, I am a HUGE pornography hater myself. Huge. I think it should be illegal.

 

[Margy1948]

Just curious… what are yall’s thoughts on sending naked or half naked pictures of yourself to your spouse while you are apart for an extended period of time?

I’m assuming this would definitely not fall under the category of pornography, since it’s the person you’re married to and love/are committed to for life, and not some random stranger whom you don’t even care about.

I think it’s just fine, but those photos could become public at any time, especially over the internet or on cell phones.