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T
Truthstalker
Guest
Yeah, blame me for everything. I must be more powerful than I thought, as well as irrational and incompetent at defending a postion historically and biblically.LOL…It isn’t MY logic, but truthstalkers – and everyone else who cannot rationally, historically or biblically defend SS.
Any more insults you want to throw my way instead of debating?
You want Bible verses? You want to go historic depth? That is past the request of this thread, my friend. I am merely seeking to establish that there is a lot more to SS than the OP was aware of and explain it some, without even saying that I was for it or against it, just explaining the doctrine.
Under SS, God decides. You trust God by faith. God is the ultimate authority. Under SS, people view the church with suspicion at usurping a function God reserves for Himself. You ask God to tell you and He does. God is faithful: "ask and it shall be given to you, seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened to you, and “if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives to all men generously and without reproaching, and it will be given to him.” (James 1:5). Not James does not tell anyone to go ask the church for wisdom, but ask God. You seem to have a problem with the idea of trusting God.
“You have no need that anyone should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lues, just as it has taught you, abide in him.” See 1 John 2:26-27.
and John 10:1-6 can be used: Jesus is the good shepherd and the Pope is compared to the thief and the robber. As the sheep do not listen to the thief and the robber (meaning they are Protestant), they are the Lord’s sheep. Catholics don’t hear the Lord’s voice because they are not His sheep, so they don’t get Sola Scriptura.
and John 10:27 “my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and they shall never perish, and I give them eternal life, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”
Here the Calvinist will point out the difference between the voice of the Good Shepherd and the voice of Rome: the promise of eternal security versus the denial of it.
My point here is that SS is worthy of debate, not smug dismissal. We can get into a verse-slinging and mud-slinging contest but it won’t solve anything.
SS has some inherent weaknesses, as I’ve described on other threads.
Concerning the historic depth issue, the reformers believed they were recovering an older and truer Christianity than what they saw in their day. They did not believe they were inventing anything but going back to what had been practiced. Certain church fathers can be read as believing in Sola Scriptura - Theodoret and Clement of Alexandria are two. Augustine can be dragged into this two, and now we can throw clips of various fathers’ writings at each other and the confetti contest will begin once more.
I’m interested in truth, not winning some debate on a thread. What is true is complex where it needs to be complex and simple where it needs to be simple. God does talk to people. He doesn’t always use the formal structure of a church. People on both sides of the Tiber think deeply and well on a variety of issues and we shouldn’t just ignore the depth of the thought that has gone into something that we disagree with. God also uses His church. We can learn from each other. One day we may be all one again.
Ut unum sint.
M
mo3
Guest
I thank you for being intellectually accurate on this point. It is a blessing when we agree on important issues.
M
mo3
Guest
God does tell his follows to ask the Church for wisdom:
Lk. 10: 16 – “Whoever listens to you listens to me…” Jesus himself says it clearly and without equivocation: The Church speaks for Christ. 1 Tim. 3: 15 – Paul says the foundation of truth is not scripture, but the Church: “…Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”
Heb. 13: 17 – “Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you…” The Church hierarchy is ordained by God. Mt. 28: 18-20 – “‘All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them… teaching them to observe all I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the world.’” Jesus’ authority is passed on to his Church.
Eph. 3: 10 – Even the angels are instructed by the church: “…so that the manifold wisdom of
God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities in the heavens.” John 11: 47-52 – John states clearly that even Caiaphas was inspired by the Holy Spirit when, speaking from the chair of Moses, he declared that Jesus must die so the whole nation might not perish: “He did not say this on his own, but since he was high priest for that year, he ophesied…” If the Holy Spirit spoke through the unchristian conniver Caiaphas, how is it he cannot speak through a faithful Christian pope?
O
onenow1
Guest
Hi,
John 21: 24-25 This disciple is the one who vouches for those things and has written them down, and we know his testimony is true. there was much else that Jesus did; if it were written down in detail, I do not suppose the world itself would hold all the books that would be written.
2 John 1: 12 There are several things I have to tell you, but I thought it best not to trust them to paper and ink. I hope instead to visit you and talk to you in person, so our joy may be complete.
2Peter 3: 15-16 Think of our Lord’s patience as your opportunity to be saved;our brother Paul, who is so dear to us, told you this when he wrote to you with the wisdom that he was given. He makes this point too in his letters as a whole when he touches on these things. In all his letters there are some things hard to understand, and these are the ones that the unbalanced and uneducated people distort, in the same way as they distort the rest of scripture_ to their own destruction.
Looks like Peter, Paul and John looked at scripture much differently then some bible alone people. At least thats my take on these verses.These verses just smack for the need of tradition, and authority to use it.
Peace
OneNow1
John 21: 24-25 This disciple is the one who vouches for those things and has written them down, and we know his testimony is true. there was much else that Jesus did; if it were written down in detail, I do not suppose the world itself would hold all the books that would be written.
2 John 1: 12 There are several things I have to tell you, but I thought it best not to trust them to paper and ink. I hope instead to visit you and talk to you in person, so our joy may be complete.
2Peter 3: 15-16 Think of our Lord’s patience as your opportunity to be saved;our brother Paul, who is so dear to us, told you this when he wrote to you with the wisdom that he was given. He makes this point too in his letters as a whole when he touches on these things. In all his letters there are some things hard to understand, and these are the ones that the unbalanced and uneducated people distort, in the same way as they distort the rest of scripture_ to their own destruction.
Looks like Peter, Paul and John looked at scripture much differently then some bible alone people. At least thats my take on these verses.These verses just smack for the need of tradition, and authority to use it.
Peace
OneNow1
T
Truthstalker
Guest
There are better ways to defend Tradition than you have provided. I can think of several verses, but why? We can bat verses across all day, and no one has responded to the ones I posted - those were ignored and others were furnished - inconclusive ones at that.
A good apologist should be able to understand the arguments on both sides of the debate well enough to argue either position at length.
T
The_Augustinian
Guest
And certainly as a Catholic I think of the thieves and robbers as the heresiarchs who encourage the sheep to ignore the Shepherd appointed by Christ.
While I respect the Calvinist view as an extrapolation from the Bible, especially the parts that are correct, it certainly is not anything like historical Christianity, but an abstraction.
O
onenow1
Guest
Quote=OneNow1]Response 1 John 2: Is refering to false teachers, and he is writing
the community telling them not to be led astray,a warning in his letters to them to hold fast to the teaching they learned in the beginning and not to be hoodwinked. If you will notice it’s what they heard not what they read.
Peace
OneNow1
O
onenow1
Guest
M
MrS
Guest
Scripture seems to disagree with you… The pillar and the foundation of the Truth is the Church (Timothy).
And yes, the Truth is not something, it is somebody, and His Name is Jesus Christ.
Catholics should simply profess Sola Dei Verbum… Only the Word of God.
That Word of God is given to us in 3 ways… Tradition is the first gift… all given to the Apostles
Second is the Scripture which records much of the Tradition.
Third is the Teaching Authority received from Jesus Himself … the Magisterium.
We do not claim one over the other. Much like the Trinity, all cooperate with each other… all compliment each other.\
M
mo3
Guest
I am not sure how you expect an exact “quotes direct the Christian” statement. The word “Christian” was not used by Jesus or the Apostles. It is clear in the verses quoted that if you believe in Jesus, you will believe what he says. These verses also confirm the authority of His Church:
Eph. 2: 19-20 – The Church stands upon the solid rock of salvation history. It is the “…household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets…” Mt. 18: 15-18 – Take disagreements to the Church, not to scriptures: “If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.” Parallels following passage: Dt. 17: 8-12 – The Old Testament form of the Magisterium. It is clear here that disagreements were to be settled by priests and judges, not by dueling scriptures: “Any man who has the insolence to refuse to listen to the priest… shall die.”
You are making this direct correlation of Jesus=Truth=Church, which doesn’t quite apply or work in this discussion. It’s like saying: Jesus=truth, truth says the sky is blue, therefore, Jesus = a blue sky.
I am not sure this was a topic of this thread and therefore, seems to be a distraction from the main topic. The point of the OP was that Scripture is not totally sufficient. God bless.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,
Im just curious if anyone has ever thought that the Tradition that is talked about in the NT is simply the Gospel message of Jesus Christ? We are told to hold fast to what we have learned either by oral or written. Well, the Apostles taught the Gospel orally and in written word. Contrary to popular belief the NT letters were all writtem by 70 AD and were circulating amongst the churches. They were not in book form yet as we know them to be now. If a church did not have the letter they were told orally and then when they did have the letters they were read when they gathered as a group of christians.
Im just curious if anyone has ever thought that the Tradition that is talked about in the NT is simply the Gospel message of Jesus Christ? We are told to hold fast to what we have learned either by oral or written. Well, the Apostles taught the Gospel orally and in written word. Contrary to popular belief the NT letters were all writtem by 70 AD and were circulating amongst the churches. They were not in book form yet as we know them to be now. If a church did not have the letter they were told orally and then when they did have the letters they were read when they gathered as a group of christians.
B
Bishopite
Guest
We know God inspired the books of the canon, that’s a given, however those books didn’t fall from the sky either therefore that’s not the issue. The issue is who did God allow to authoritatively recognize what were and were not the infallibe books He inspired? The answer is the Catholic Magisterium.
B
Bishopite
Guest
Because what Protestants mean by the term “sufficient” at least in its simple meaning is that a person can read the Bible and know Jesus as their Savior, therefore the Scriptures are sufficient to bring people to the knowledge and faith in Jesus giving them the gift of salvation. They use the term sufficient unto salvation to describe the sufficiency of Scripture. That Scripture is totally sufficient in its most primative and simplistic form unto salvation is true, that is to say if what one is saying by “total sufficient” one means initial justification. But there is a problem with this position if it goes beyond initial justification because the Scriptures say much more than just reading and believing in Jesus and that’s all you need to do.
The problem with the Protestant idea of the total sufficiency of the Scriptures is that a simple Bible tract can do the same thing as the infallible Scriptures which would also make this Bible tract sufficient unto salvation at least in its simplistic or primative form and that would be very bad theology.
M
mo3
Guest
It is the message of Jesus Christ for sure but there were many things not written down: “And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written everyone, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written Amen.”—John 21-25:
To make sure that the apostolic Tradition would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy: “[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first four generations of apostolic succession–his own generation, Timothy’s generation, the generation Timothy will teach, and the generation they in turn will teach. The early Church fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, recognized the necessity of the Traditions that had been handed down from the Apostles and guarded them scrupulously. Have a great Thanksgiving. God bless.
M
MrS
Guest
The Real Presence
Succession of the Apostles
Communion of Saints
Purgatory
The Mass
Marion Theology
Authority of the Church
Redemptive Suffering
All things in the Creed
and more
and more
and more
You see… all Catholic Theology was first handed on orally - which is the “Tradition” of the Church.
After time, much was written down (perhaps too much
) … after all, some of the writings were not considered “eligible” or correct for the canonAfter more time… only the Church reviewed the writings… lots of review. The Early Church Fathers studing these writings, and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, came to decisions on which were inerrant, and which were not… giving the world the canon of Scripture which we know today (73 books)
The Magisterium is the teaching body that has the God-given authority to translate, correct a translation, and interpret a translation, and teach with authority.
Thus Catholics should profess belief only in
Sola Dei Verbum… Only the Word of God
and we should tell all that there are only three sources of this Word… Tradition, The Bible of the Catholic Church, and the Magisterium.
We are the original Bible Christians… it is OUR book.
All other “imposters” may only claim to be “churches of the Bible”
They are, however, not really churches… they are at best faith communities without the Apostolic Authority of the One True Church.
.
R
Reformed1
Guest
Okay, can you show me where your Church claims that the apostles understood and taught the immaculate conception? If you can, can you further show me where this belief was in the first few centuries of the church?The Real Presence
Succession of the Apostles
Communion of Saints
Purgatory
The Mass
Marion Theology
Authority of the Church
Redemptive Suffering
All things in the Creed
and more
and more
and more
You see… all Catholic Theology was first handed on orally - which is the “Tradition” of the Church.
After time, much was written down (perhaps too much
After more time… only the Church reviewed the writings… lot of review. The Early Church Fathers studing these writings, and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, came to decisions on which were inerrant, and which were not… giving the world the canon of Scripture which we know today (73 books)
The Magisterium is the teaching body that has the God-given authority to translate, correct a translation, and interpret a translation.
Thus Catholics should profess believe only in
Sola Dei Verbum… Only the Word of God
and we should tell all that there are only three sources of this Word… Tradition, The Bible of the Catholic Church, and the Magisterium
We are the original Bible Christians… it is OUR book.
All other “imposters” may only claim to be “churches of the Bible”
They are, however, not really churches… they are at best faith communities without the Apostolic Authority of the One True Church.
.
See, claiming something was taught by Jesus or the apostles is simple, Mormons do something similar all the time. Demonstrating that this was the case is another matter entirely.
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