Name 3 reasons you are not Catholic (yet).

[LilyM]

So every thing I say you look it up on the interner and I am suppose to spend all my time on the defensive answering your questions because you don’t agree.

This is an apologetics forum (or at least sub-forum, there are areas such as the Clubhouse which are purely social). We explain and defend what we believe and why, certainly some of us better and more rationally than others. And we expect those of other faiths who join us to do the same.

Peter in his epistle tells us to ‘be prepared to give an answer’ for our beliefs. If nothing else, at least engaging with those of different beliefs strengthens you in your faith walk and exposes you to new ideas and points of view, even those you don’t agree with.

 

[Contarini]

So every thing I say you look it up on the interner and I am suppose to spend all my time on the defensive answering your questions because you don’t agree.

Actually, our exchange over Gothic Biblical translations consisted of you dumping a lot of information on me which looked like it was the product of exhaustive research but as far as I can tell was actually taken wholesale from Riplinger. I spent hours responding to it. Has it ever crossed your mind that some people may have actually thought about these issues before? That people may have thoughtful reasons for disagreeing with you?

No matter what a non, or the great unwashed say on this forum, it is simply going to be dismissed, challenged, ridiculed, debased, debunced, ratted on and opined to death. What an unproductive place this has been.

What were you trying to accomplish? It sounds as if you expected everyone to fall down in awe at your wisdom. You gave opinions, and we have given the reasons why we don’t agree with them. Instead of defending your opinions, you put on a super-spiritual air and tell us that your time here has been unproductive.
Fine. We could probably all do with spending more time on more productive enterprises. But I have no clue what you expected to accomplish in the first place. Did you think everyone on this board was going to applaud you for being a KJV-only fundamentalist Pentecostal? You are our brother in Christ, but you have chosen to follow a form of Christianity with some serious errors. If you don’t want them pointed out, you should only talk to people who are sure to agree with you.

I rather like being called Contrary, though. Maybe I’ll take that as my permanent alias. . . .

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Thanks to Contrary I now have a lower opiniion of the doctrines of the Catholic Church than ever. I may have a thin skin but his thick head more than makes up for it. This will be my last post. I don’t care for any more of this rediculous bickering that leads to fleshy entanglements and no spiritual enlightenment what so ever. I have learned nothing except Catholics believe they are superior. I pray to God they never get power again like they once had.

Oi Vey

We think we’re superior? After all we’ve done is defend our traditions? May God open your eyes to the truth that is the Catholic church. I’ll pray the rosary for you.

 

[kellie]

Hmm, Let’s see:

Yeah, the Holy Spirit is never mentioned at Mass.

I may have missed a few references, anyone care to add some?

May the peace of the Lord and the Fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all
And also with you

 

[shadow_fire]

(read post on pg42)

I only asked for a pm response because I don’t check here often. I can back up any thing I say.

But why would I believe in Catholicism and hell in the first place? theres no solid evidence that the religion is anymore correct then any of the other hundreds of religions. And if there is a god there is no way an omnipotent being would be vain enough to sentence a person to eternal torture for not believing in a religion that is no more credible then the next.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I only asked for a pm response because I don’t check here often. I can back up any thing I say.

But why would I believe in Catholicism and hell in the first place? theres no solid evidence that the religion is anymore correct then any of the other hundreds of religions. And if there is a god there is no way an omnipotent being would be vain enough to sentence a person to eternal torture for not believing in a religion that is no more credible then the next.

Jesus spoke it a lot in his ministry. Do you think Jesus would lie?

Jesus founded Christianity and he revealed all Truth, because He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He established a Church which he built upon Peter (Matthew 16:18), which is the Catholic Church. Though the Church has schism, and divisions, the Catholic Church, Orthodox, and Protestants are One Church because they are baptized in Christ.

I can go more in depth about what Jesus preached about hell.

Matthew 5

22 But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

2 Matthew 5

29 And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.

3 Matthew 5

30 And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.

4 Matthew 10

28 And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hell exist. It is a placed made for those disobedient to God. It was made for the fallen angels, Satan, and any unrepentant sinners.

Those who go to hell go there by their own choice, by rejecting the Lord and sinning. God did not put them there. The sinners did. The Book of Revelation speaks of it. It is a place where sinners remain there for all eternity. The worst thing about Hell is that there is no God’s presence there. None. You are completely cut off from the Lord.

 

[Mannyfit75]

MHalsey
Hmm, Let’s see:

Yeah, the Holy Spirit is never mentioned at Mass.

The Holy Spirit is mention.

Rite I:

The people standing, the Celebrant may say,

Blessed be God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

R. And blessed be his kingdom, now and for ever. Amen

In the Reciting of the Nicene Creed:

And I believe in the **Holy Ghost **the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father and the Son;
who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped
and glorified;

By whom, and with whom, and in whom, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, all honor and glory be unto thee, O Father Almighty, world without end.

Furthermore, in the Eucharistic Liturgy the Priest invokes these prayers:

“Great and merciful Father, we ask you to send down your Holy Spirit to sanctify these gifts of bread and wine, that they may become for us the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Almighty Father, by our sharing in this mystery enliven us with your Spirit and conform us to the image of your Son.”

This calling upon the Holy Spirit reminds us of our need, as individuals and as community, to be open to the workings of the Spirit who comes to change our behavior (morality) and our consciousness (spirituality). We are called to experience ongoing conversion and to grow in faith in both our individual lives and our lives as the community of God’s people.

In the Catholic Mass, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are there. Fr. Corapi said, "where one of the Trinity is, the other Two are also present.

 

[guanophore]

WHY? When Jesus said repeatedly to ask in His name. When He was asked to teach us to pray, He told us to say “Our Father”. No woman mentioned. His own prayer for Himself and His followers doesn’t mention Mary, either.

Prayers are not to be from the mind but from the heart.

You might take your prayer in heart but you had to memorize it first.

Romans 8:26-27

Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The best prayers does not come from a book of prayers but from your heart with your own words.

All these kinds of prayer are valid, kujo. It is valid to make spontaneous prayer in the Spirit from the heart, it is valid to pray memorized prayers, such as the Lord’s prayer, and it is valid to pray the scriptures.

The Bible is the Word of God. Nearly 4,000 times in the Old Testament alone, we read phrases like ‘the Lord spoke’, ‘the Lord commanded’ and ‘the Lord said’. The apostle Peter says that the prophetic scriptures ‘never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit’ (2 Peter 1:21).

“All scripture is God-breathed…”

I recognize my Father’s voice in Scripture because I am His adopted son. Jesus said: ‘He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you [who do not believe] do not hear, because you are not of God’ (John 8:47).

It is very Catholic of you to say this, kujo! This is exactly the teaching of the Church. This is also a good reason to pray the words of scripture, since they are God-Breathed, and that allows us to breathe the words back.

“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you”.

 

[guanophore]

Consider first of all, the form of the rosary. It is 10 repetitions of the ‘Hail Mary’ for five times. What did our Lord say about repetitious prayer? “When you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words” (Matthew 6:6,7). Prayer is the spontaneous expression of the heart before God - of praise and thanksgiving, confession and petition. Repeating the same prayer over and over again tends to dull the mind. Such repetitions are vain and pagan.

It seems that your understanding of prayer is quite narrow, kujo. Maybe you do not realize that this is only one type of personal prayer that Jesus was speaking about. In fact, Jesus attended the synagoue and temple all his life, and participated in liturgical worship. Sometime if you attend a traditional (orthodox Jewish) service you may be able to get a sense of the type of public worship in which Jesus participated. His apostles also all did the same. You may also notice that the Mass is taken right out of this order of liturgy.

It is quite judgmental of you to assume that those who pray the rosary, or make repitition with their prayers, are vain and pagan. Who are you to judge the quality of another’s prayer? It seems like an arrogant deed.

13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ Luke 18:13-14

Suppose someone is beating their breast, and repeating “Lord be merciful to me, a sinner”?

Luke 18:14
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

A pure prayer is one of humble heart, that recognizes one’s own sinfulness, and the mercy of God. If praying the rosary, or beating one’s breast and saying “Lord be merciful to me, a sinner” helps a person to be in right relationship to God, then who are you to judge that?

People who have never used liturgical prayer, or repetitive prayer such as the rosary somehow assume that it is “vain”. On the other hand, for many, repitition of the scripture verses or the prayers is very life giving.

Judgement upon others is not life giving.

 

[kujo313]

It seems that your understanding of prayer is quite narrow, kujo. Maybe you do not realize that this is only one type of personal prayer that Jesus was speaking about. In fact, Jesus attended the synagoue and temple all his life, and participated in liturgical worship. Sometime if you attend a traditional (orthodox Jewish) service you may be able to get a sense of the type of public worship in which Jesus participated. His apostles also all did the same. You may also notice that the Mass is taken right out of this order of liturgy.

It is quite judgmental of you to assume that those who pray the rosary, or make repitition with their prayers, are vain and pagan. Who are you to judge the quality of another’s prayer? It seems like an arrogant deed.

13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ Luke 18:13-14

Suppose someone is beating their breast, and repeating “Lord be merciful to me, a sinner”?

Luke 18:14
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

A pure prayer is one of humble heart, that recognizes one’s own sinfulness, and the mercy of God. If praying the rosary, or beating one’s breast and saying “Lord be merciful to me, a sinner” helps a person to be in right relationship to God, then who are you to judge that?

People who have never used liturgical prayer, or repetitive prayer such as the rosary somehow assume that it is “vain”. On the other hand, for many, repitition of the scripture verses or the prayers is very life giving.

Judgement upon others is not life giving.

Just looking at the “fruits”. Also, Jesus never taught anybody the “hail mary”, man put that together.

 

[lak611]

Just looking at the “fruits”. Also, Jesus never taught anybody the “hail mary”, man put that together.

If that is the criteria for prayer, then the Lord’s Prayer would be the only acceptable prayer. :whacky:

 

[kujo313]

All these kinds of prayer are valid, kujo. It is valid to make spontaneous prayer in the Spirit from the heart, it is valid to pray memorized prayers, such as the Lord’s prayer, and it is valid to pray the scriptures.

“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you”.

Actually, until you added the last part, it was very Christian. Jesus never taught us the “hail mary”. He taught us to pray “Our FATHER…”

(yea, yea, yea. He loved mommy. However, we’re talking Spiritual here, not fleshly.)

 

[kujo313]

If that is the criteria for prayer, then the Lord’s Prayer would be the only acceptable prayer. :whacky:

Actually, Jesus DID pray to God for Himself and all of us. Prayers from the heart are acceptable because they’re from our spirit to His.

 

[kujo313]

Oi Vey

We think we’re superior? After all we’ve done is defend our traditions? May God open your eyes to the truth that is the Catholic church. I’ll pray the rosary for you.

Yes you do. You claim that the catholic church is THE true Church of Jesus Christ. Meanwhile, leaders within your denomination say that Salvation is through Mary alone while Jesus taught otherwise. The words “saved” and “born-again” are not taught in your denomination.

Goth, I’m not going to ask Mary for anything for you. I’ll go to the Throne directly for you in Jesus’ name.

 

[lak611]

Meanwhile, leaders within your denomination say that Salvation is through Mary alone while Jesus taught otherwise.

None of the Catholic leaders have ever said this. If you claim this, show me the proof.

The words “saved” and “born-again” are not taught in your denomination.

Yes, they are. We are “born-again” at our Baptism.

 

[kujo313]

Mary is not idolized,

. The honor given to her is the fact is her relationship with Jesus.

Jesus is God, Mary is the Mother of Jesus. Therefore Mary is the Mother of God.

First, I google-search Mary and I find countless of websites who show pictures of shrines made out to Mary and even a pic of Pope JPII kissing the statue of Mary. Maybe not by you, but by millions within your religion.

Second, since Jesus is God, Mary called God “my savior”. Therefore, Jesus is Mary’s Savior and she humbled herself to Him.

Lastly, you cannot claim “if this, then this, therefore this” when it comes to God. Mary was only the fulfillment of Scripture that a virgin shall give birth. It’s your religion that places her any higher than that.

 

[kellie]

First, I google-search Mary and I find countless of websites who show pictures of shrines made out to Mary and even a pic of Pope JPII kissing the statue of Mary. Maybe not by you, but by millions within your religion.

Second, since Jesus is God, Mary called God “my savior”. Therefore, Jesus is Mary’s Savior and she humbled herself to Him.

Lastly, you cannot claim “if this, then this, therefore this” when it comes to God. Mary was only the fulfillment of Scripture that a virgin shall give birth. It’s your religion that places her any higher than that.

I kissed a photo of my son that I have in a frame the other day. It is a photo of him at 3 days old. I was remembering how beautiful he made me feel as a mummy for the first time. Does this mean I was worshipping him? No.

If we aren’t allowed to pray the Hail Mary as Jesus did not teach it to us, how then can we pray at all? All my prayers are man-made except the Our Father. Actually all my prayers are “kellie-made”, as I make them up to suit me.
So why is it wrong that man has made one up about Mary?

We do not worship Mary, but we do place her higher than other mums, as she is the mother of Jesus.

I sometimes fear the way I am raising my son, in case I do a bad job, as I don’t want to let him down, imagine being Mary and having that same fear. Except she would let the whole of mankind down, not just her Son.

Unless you want to say that Jesus was protected from being raised wrong, as He was perfect. That would negate any human experience He had to endure to be fully human, which is why He was sent here, to be fully human. That would mean experiencing what it is like to be raised by a human mum. So yes, Mary is the greatest mum of all time, which is why the Catholic Church love her so much.

 

[Techno2000]

a pic of Pope JPII kissing the statue of Mary.
QUOTE]

I bet Mother Mary kissed him when he came to Heaven.

 

[Bennie_P]

First, I google-search Mary and I find countless of websites who show pictures of shrines made out to Mary and even a pic of Pope JPII kissing the statue of Mary. Maybe not by you, but by millions within your religion.

Second, since Jesus is God, Mary called God “my savior”. Therefore, Jesus is Mary’s Savior and she humbled herself to Him.

Lastly, you cannot claim “if this, then this, therefore this” when it comes to God. Mary was only the fulfillment of Scripture that a virgin shall give birth. It’s your religion that places her any higher than that.

Here go to the source (Vatican) to learn what the Church teaches about prayer, Jesus, Mary and quit wasting your time with Google Searches. Everything you ever wanted to know what the Church is teaching can be found there.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

CHRISTIAN PRAYER There are 50 plus sections on prayer, so don’t stop at the first link to get a full understanding of the Church’s teaching on prayer.

Christ Jesus – "Mediator and Fullness of All Revelation"

"CONCEIVED BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND BORN OF THE VIRGIN MARY"

Here is what *Timothy George, an ordained minister in the Southern Baptist Convention, and the dean of Beeson Divinity School of Samford University has to say about Mary, not all non-Catholics feel the way that you do about Mary - *Evangelicals and the Mother of God


Oh, one question, have you ever kissed your Bible?

 

[kujo313]

So why is it wrong that man has made one up about Mary?

QUOTE]

We’re supposed to direct all our prayers and supplications to God through Jesus Christ.

Man through Jesus to God.

There are no other parts to this equation. Why is it so hard for you?