Name one Catholic teaching that contradicts Scripture

  • Thread starter Thread starter MariaG
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
JesusHasMyHeart:
We must understand that nowhere in the bible does it say that Mary was sinless or a perpetual virgin, she did go on in marriage to Joseph and bore other children.
Click to expand...
Where does it say that she bore other children? The burden of proof is on you to say that she is full of sin instead of Full of Grace.
40.png
JesusHasMyHeart:
Only Jesus the second Adam, was born without sin, He was not of the seed of man which carries the sinful nature, but He was conceived of the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
Jesus has Mary’s blood and Mary’s heart. He also Has the Holy Spirit!
40.png
JesusHasMyHeart:
We must understand the absolute importance of this, because without this, Jesus would have no right to be the sinless, perfect Lamb of God. His sacrifice for us would be tainted and unfit. This is the center of redemption and the foundation of our forgiveness of all sin. If we don’t get this right as individuals and believe in the uttmost importance of this, we have lost it all.This is essential doctrine of salvation.
This is why it was so important that He was not born of the sinful line of Adam through Joseph, but was born of the kingly line of David through Mary.
Click to expand...
You are so right about this. That is why Mary HAS to be one who has been perfected in Grace, or made full of grace, so that she can bear Jesus and give us Life. Mary is the New Eve! But it’s not what you think, the way most Protestants think we mean. There are “types” all over the bible. I’m sure you’ve heard of Typology; you mentioned Jesus as the New Adam, well Mary is the New Eve. You can read about that in my previous posts right above this one.
40.png
JesusHasMyHeart:
It is not essential that Mary was without sin, she bore the redeemer, but she herself was not the redeemer, but the honored woman without doubt, to bare the Messiah.
Click to expand...
It is definitely most essential that Mary IS without sin. There is no way that Jesus would dwell in something that is not clean and holy. Mary is also the New Ark of the Covenant. Please read my previous posts again if you have read them already. :gopray2:
 
40.png
JesusHasMyHeart:
And she probably cringes when people pray to her, worship her, and esteem her higher then the Lord in whom she bore and submitted to. She also needed a redeemer and she believed in the promise of God, and found much favor in the eyes of God, and she will be remembered for all she had done, and the reproach she lived with for her obedience.
Click to expand...
Mary would not like for anyone to worship her! Catholics do NOT worship Mary. The last thing that Mary wants is to be a stumbling block for anyone. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t pay homage to her and call her blessed just the way she told us.
48… for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Luke 1:48 D-RV
Mary always leads us to her son. She intercedes for us to her son.* Just the same way that Jesus passed through Mary to live and dwell among us, we are to pass through Mary to get to Jesus so that we can be among all the Angels and Saints in Heaven with Jesus.
  • 3 And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. 4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? ** my hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.
    *** 4 “What is that to me”… These words of our Saviour, spoken to his mother, have been understood by some commentators as harsh, they not considering the next following verse: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye, which plainly shows that his mother knew of the miracle that he was to perform, and that it was at her request he wrought it; besides the manner of speaking the words as to the tone, and the countenance shown at the same time, which could only be known to those who were present, or from what had followed: for words indicating anger in one tone of voice, would be understood quite the reverse in another.*
    John 2:3-4 D-RV
Mary here in the previous verse tells the waiters to do whatever Jesus tells them to do. Mary sees the problems that we all have and we could ask her to intercede for us and Jesus will refuse her nothing (if it be God’s will).
 
To JesusHasMyHeart;

To continue with my previous post:
Since Mary is the Queen of Heaven as a fulfillment of the OT type shown in these next verses, Jesus can refuse her nothing if she asks Him for something that we need. We ask Mary to pray (request) for us all the time. We of course also pray to Jesus, we pray to God and we pray to the Holy Spirit. Of course our requests are answered in God’s time and in God’s way. So we are not to ask for money or anything like that. We don’t NEED money they way most people WANT money. If we are in a bind with money, we are to make sacrifices and we ask for help in our struggles come how they may come the way that God wants it.
13 And Adonias the son of Haggith came to Bethsabee the mother of Solomon. And she said to him: Is thy coming peaceable? he answered: Peaceable. 14 And he added: I have a word to speak with thee. She said to him: Speak. And he said: 15 Thou knowest that the kingdom was nine, and all Israel had preferred me to be their king: but the kingdom is transferred, and is become my brother’s: for it was appointed him by the Lord.
16 Now therefore I ask one petition of thee: turn not away my face. And she said to him: Say on. 17 And he said: I pray thee speak to king Solomon (for he cannot deny thee any thing) to give me Abisag the Sunamitess to wife. 18 And Bethsabee said: Well, I will speak for thee to the king. 19 Then Bethsabee came to king Solomon, to speak to him for Adonias: and the king arose to meet her, and bowed to her, and sat down upon his throne: and a throne was set for the king’s mother, and she sat on his right hand. 20 And she said to him: I desire one small petition of thee, do not put me to confusion. And the king said to her: My mother, ask: for I must not turn away thy face. 21 And she said: Let Abisag the Sunamitess be given to Adonias thy brother to wife. 22 And king Solomon answered, and said to his mother: Why dost thou ask Abisag the Sunamitess for Adonias? ask for him also the kingdom: for he is my elder brother, and hath Abiathar the priest, and Joab the son of Sarvia. 23 Then king Solomon swore by the Lord, saying: So and so may God do to me, and add more, if Adonias hath not spoken this word against his own life. 24 And now as the Lord liveth, who hath established me, and placed me upon the throne of David my father, and who hath made me a house, as he promised, Adonias shall be put to death this day. 25 And king Solomon sent by the hand of Banaias the son of Joiada, who slew him, and he died.
1 Kings 2:13-25
Originally Posted by JesusHasMyHeart
She also needed a redeemer and she believed in the promise of God
Click to expand...
We do not dispute that she needed a redeemer. But it’s not what you think. Please read my previous post about how Mary was saved so that she can hold Jesus in her womb. If you already read it and still cannot see, then I ask that you pray to the Holy Spirit and read it again please. :gopray2:
 
And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

You see Mary was a daughter of Eve.We are all born under Adam except Jesus. I don’t see anywhere in the bible that she was the second Eve. In the quote above she rejoiced in God her Savior. Mary needed a Savior, if she was without sin, she would be fit to be a Savior which is where I believe catholics cross the line of making her co-redemptriss.
Mary sets the ultimate example of Magnifying the Lord, if you follow her in anything, do this, and her humble obedience to God.
Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

Here we see Mary magnifying the Lord and honoring Him, giving Him glory.She is also acknowledging that God is merciful to her and to them that fear HIM.
]“Shall call me blessed”…These words are a prediction of that honour which the church in all ages should pay to the Blessed Virgin. Let Protestants examine whether they are any way concerned in this prophecy.

She was blessed indeed, we do understand the honor bestowed upon her, but do not pray TO her. Nowhere is this found among the Apostles or early church or Jesus for that matter anyone praying to her or commanded to, nor an example of. We do acknowledge the privaledge that was bestowed upon her though. She was the favored among women and so was Elizabeth to conceive John the baptist. We must remember and believe in the virgin birth of Christ to understand more fully the value and legitamacy of His sacrifice. She must be a virgin as predicted in Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:23 the fullfillment of prophesy. It is all about Jesus, not Mary, though she was blessed.

This is where Catholics go wrong in exalting man, elevating people to the place of honor equal to Jesus Christ, and no one has more honor than Christ.

If Mary is one who has been perfected in Grace or made “full of grace” then how can there be any room for sin whether original or “man-made” sin.

Full of grace (Charis) Divine favor. Did you know all true believers are saved by grace, the New Testament is full of scriptures on grace. We are declared rightous by what jesus did for us on the cross and His resurrection, but that does not mean we are previously without sin.The * reasoning* above is a perfect example of taking a truth and adding to it by reasoning of the Catholic teaching and perverting the truth. Mary needed grace, she was not the bestower of grace, Only God is worthy.
I repeat, Mary was the daughter of Eve, who fell in the garden, she is not the second Eve.
No where else in the bible did an Angel speak this way to anyone. Gabriel would not have used that name for her if she had been touched by sin. God gave her that name because of the meaning of that name, which is in bold at the top of this paragraph.

Please read Luke 1:5-19 verse 19 idetifies the angel Gabriel speaking to Zacharia.

God was Mary’s savior in that she needed a Savior before she was to be conceived. God just knew that it would be fitting for Mary to be SINLESS both from Original Sin and human sin.

Extrabiblical, nowhere found in scripture.

It would be fitting in that she was to bear Jesus. I don’t see how anyone can think that Jesus was to be born of a woman full of sin instead of from a woman “full of grace” which means she is sinless! God gave the

Mary is the New Eve!

Nowhere in scripture.
Queen of heaven? Read Revelation 17 and 18 pretty scarry stuff.
Especially the purple and scarlet and golden cup. The 7 hills, did you know the vatican sits on seven hills of Rome Verse 9of Ch.17 ?
And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them
Eve was made without sin. If Mary is the New Eve, then how can Mary be made with Eve’s sin?

Your reasoning is not scriptural, there is no support of this thinking. Mary is not the new Eve. This is a bad example of the sinlessness of Mary, because it is nowhere supported scripturally and conjured up by man.

This is an example of twisting the scriptures to your own destruction 2Peter 3:16
 
40.png
JesusHasMyHeart:
Please read Luke 1:5-19 verse 19 idetifies the angel Gabriel speaking to Zacharia.
Click to expand...
Here it is;
19 And the angel answering, said to him: I am Gabriel, who stand before God: and am sent to speak to thee, and to bring thee these good tidings.

This is your reply to my post which I quote here?
40.png
AlegreFe:
No where else in the bible did an Angel speak this way to anyone.
Click to expand...
Gabriel did not speak to Zachary in the same way he spoke to Mary. I guess you didn’t understand my statement. Maybe you should read it again. I didn’t say that an Angel never spoke to anyone at all in the bible.
40.png
JesusHasMyHeart:
You see Mary was a daughter of Eve.
Click to expand...
Where in the bible does it say that? I thought you only go by the bible. You see, all the burden of proof lies on you not the Catholic Church. From what Authority do you get your interpretations? And since you only go by the bible, from where do you get your ideas.

I doubt you read all my posts on why Mary is EVER VIRGIN and why she is the Immaculate Conception and why she is sinless. And if you did read them ALL, then you rushed through the posts and you didn’t pray; you didn’t open your heart and mind either so that you can see the truth.

Please go to my thread in Sacred Scripture. I ask anyone to prove to me the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Find one thing in the bible that supports or teaches “Sola Scriptura” or “bible alone.” If you can prove “Sola Scriptura” to me then you can name yourself an “Authority Figure” here on earth for Jesus. You see, not everything Jesus did was written in the bible. If the doctrine of Bible Alone was true, then all the apostles and everyone who lived in Jesus’ time must have gone to “you know where.” They didn’t have bibles back then. There only “Scripture” was the OT. And most people couldn’t read back then. Please read my other thread in the Sacred Scripture forum. The link is above. All of your theories that contradict what I have said or better yet, what the Church has said, get torn to pieces if the doctrine of “Sola Scriptura” cannot be proven. So until you can prove it, I won’t respond to your replies to my post. I already posted my replies so please read them slowly and carefully.

I really do pray that you see the light. :gopray2: Jesus would love to “abide in you” with the Holy Eucharist!
 
40.png
JesusHasMyHeart:
And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

You see Mary was a daughter of Eve.We are all born under Adam except Jesus. I don’t see anywhere in the bible that she was the second Eve. In the quote above she rejoiced in God her Savior. Mary needed a Savior, if she was without sin, she would be fit to be a Savior which is where I believe catholics cross the line of making her co-redemptriss. Mary sets the ultimate example of Magnifying the Lord, if you follow her in anything, do this, and her humble obedience to God.

Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

Here we see Mary magnifying the Lord and honoring Him, giving Him glory.She is also acknowledging that God is merciful to her and to them that fear HIM.

]“Shall call me blessed”…These words are a prediction of that honour which the church in all ages should pay to the Blessed Virgin. Let Protestants examine whether they are any way concerned in this prophecy.

She was blessed indeed, we do understand the honor bestowed upon her, but do not pray TO her. Nowhere is this found among the Apostles or early church or Jesus for that matter anyone praying to her or commanded to, nor an example of. We do acknowledge the privaledge that was bestowed upon her though. She was the favored among women and so was Elizabeth to conceive John the baptist. We must remember and believe in the virgin birth of Christ to understand more fully the value and legitamacy of His sacrifice. She must be a virgin as predicted in Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:23 the fullfillment of prophesy. It is all about Jesus, not Mary, though she was blessed.

This is where Catholics go wrong in exalting man, elevating people to the place of honor equal to Jesus Christ, and no one has more honor than Christ.

If Mary is one who has been perfected in Grace or made “full of grace” then how can there be any room for sin whether original or “man-made” sin.

Full of grace (Charis) Divine favor. Did you know all true believers are saved by grace, the New Testament is full of scriptures on grace. We are declared rightous by what jesus did for us on the cross and His resurrection, but that does not mean we are previously without sin.The * reasoning* above is a perfect example of taking a truth and adding to it by reasoning of the Catholic teaching and perverting the truth. Mary needed grace, she was not the bestower of grace, Only God is worthy.
I repeat, Mary was the daughter of Eve, who fell in the garden, she is not the second Eve.

No where else in the bible did an Angel speak this way to anyone. Gabriel would not have used that name for her if she had been touched by sin. God gave her that name because of the meaning of that name, which is in bold at the top of this paragraph.

Please read Luke 1:5-19 verse 19 idetifies the angel Gabriel speaking to Zacharia.

God was Mary’s savior in that she needed a Savior before she was to be conceived. God just knew that it would be fitting for Mary to be SINLESS both from Original Sin and human sin.

Extrabiblical, nowhere found in scripture.

It would be fitting in that she was to bear Jesus. I don’t see how anyone can think that Jesus was to be born of a woman full of sin instead of from a woman “full of grace” which means she is sinless! God gave the

Mary is the New Eve!

Nowhere in scripture.

Queen of heaven? Read Revelation 17 and 18 pretty scarry stuff.
Especially the purple and scarlet and golden cup. The 7 hills, did you know the vatican sits on seven hills of Rome Verse 9of Ch.17 ?

And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them
Eve was made without sin. If Mary is the New Eve, then how can Mary be made with Eve’s sin?

Your reasoning is not scriptural, there is no support of this thinking. Mary is not the new Eve. This is a bad example of the sinlessness of Mary, because it is nowhere supported scripturally and conjured up by man.

This is an example of twisting the scriptures to your own destruction 2Peter 3:16

Peace be with you.

Here are some Web sites for you to visit and to read (there are plenty more):

ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/JESBRS.TXT

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc2.htm

angelfire.com/ms/seanie/BHBch9.html

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya6.htm

Enjoy reading them!
Click to expand...
 
40.png
JSmitty2005:
JesusHasMyHeart, also see:

mariology.com/

salvationhistory.com//online/intermediate/intermedcourse2_home.cfm

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html
Click to expand...
Perhaps you can help me here.

I read SOMEWHERE that it is inferred or hinted in the New Testament Gospels that the “brothers” of Jesus are OLDER than Jesus by the fact that their actions toward Jesus indicate that they look down upon him and are envious and jealous of the attention directed toward him. I do not ever recall seeing “age” referred to in the NT, but if, in fact, these “brothers” are older than Jesus then that would shoot down the fundamentalists’ opinion that Mary did not remain ever virgin because she had other children.

Are you knowledgeable in this matter?

Funny that the Reformers recognized Mary’s perpetual virginity, but the newfound fundamentalists deny it.
 
40.png
jim1130:
Perhaps you can help me here.

I read SOMEWHERE that it is inferred or hinted in the New Testament Gospels that the “brothers” of Jesus are OLDER than Jesus by the fact that their actions toward Jesus indicate that they look down upon him and are envious and jealous of the attention directed toward him. I do not ever recall seeing “age” referred to in the NT, but if, in fact, these “brothers” are older than Jesus then that would shoot down the fundamentalists’ opinion that Mary did not remain ever virgin because she had other children.

Are you knowledgeable in this matter?

Funny that the Reformers recognized Mary’s perpetual virginity, but the newfound fundamentalists deny it.
Click to expand...
I have never heard that explanation, but I *have * heard suggestions that they may have been Jesus’s step siblings - St. Joseph’s children to a previous marriage. So, it would make sense for them to be older. They may also be cousins since the word used for “brother” is ambiguous. Also, they may simply be His disciples since we are all brethren. In any case, the Early Church, just as the Catholic and Orthodox both do to this day, maintained Mary’s perpetual virginity. Finally, when our Lord entrusted Mary to St. John it is clear that she had no children other than He. If she had, then it would have been gravely offensive for Jesus to do such a thing. Knowing the culture of the time, this clearly shows that Mary’s only child was Jesus.
 
2 Timothy 3:16-17

ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTOUSNESS.
17 THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE PERFECT, THROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS.
GOD IS CAPABLE OF PRESERVING HIS WORD THROUGH THE GENERATIONS AND MAKING IT COMPLETE AND AVAILABLE TO US. BUT ONE MUST MUST BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT TO PROPERLY INTERPRET THEM.
1 Corinthians 2:12-16
2 Peter 1:16
2 Timothy 4:4
 
JesusHasMyHeart said:
2 Timothy 3:16-17

ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTOUSNESS.
17 THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE PERFECT, THROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS.
GOD IS CAPABLE OF PRESERVING HIS WORD THROUGH THE GENERATIONS AND MAKING IT COMPLETE AND AVAILABLE TO US. BUT ONE MUST MUST BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT TO PROPERLY INTERPRET THEM.
1 Corinthians 2:12-16
2 Peter 1:16
2 Timothy 4:4
Click to expand...

Please refrain from using all caps. It does not strengthen your case. Anyways, this verse does not prove sola scriptura. Even if it said what you want it to say, then it only proves Sola Vetus Testamentum* which is unworkable since we are Christians. But it does not even do that. This verse tells us of the importance of Scripture and its usefullness. It does not, however, say that Scripture is a sufficient pillar and foundation of faith for a Christian. You must have read those links awfully fast. Or maybe you didn’t read them? :confused:

*All references to “Scripture” in the NT are meant towards the OT because they are the only Scriptures that they knew. The NT as we know it did not exist until almost AD 400. For a history of the Bible, go here.
 
JesusHasMyHeart said:
2 Timothy 3:16-17

ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTOUSNESS.
17 THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE PERFECT, THROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS.
GOD IS CAPABLE OF PRESERVING HIS WORD THROUGH THE GENERATIONS AND MAKING IT COMPLETE AND AVAILABLE TO US. BUT ONE MUST MUST BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT TO PROPERLY INTERPRET THEM.
1 Corinthians 2:12-16
2 Peter 1:16
2 Timothy 4:4
Click to expand...

Peace be with you.

I guess if it is written in all uppercase then that makes it true?

Rather than devote all the time and attention to what you have decided, or what someone told you that you decided, here is a good read for you:

angelfire.com/ms/seanie/deuteros/francisdesales.html
 
40.png
JSmitty2005:
I have never heard that explanation, but I *have * heard suggestions that they may have been Jesus’s step siblings - St. Joseph’s children to a previous marriage. So, it would make sense for them to be older. They may also be cousins since the word used for “brother” is ambiguous. Also, they may simply be His disciples since we are all brethren. In any case, the Early Church, just as the Catholic and Orthodox both do to this day, maintained Mary’s perpetual virginity. Finally, when our Lord entrusted Mary to St. John it is clear that she had no children other than He. If she had, then it would have been gravely offensive for Jesus to do such a thing. Knowing the culture of the time, this clearly shows that Mary’s only child was Jesus.
Click to expand...
Another example for brother being ambiguous in the Bible is Joseph (Old Testament) and his brothers. Only Benjamin had the same mother AND father as Joseph. They all had Jacob as their father, but different mothers, and Joseph still referred to them as his brothers.
 
JesusHasMyHeart said:
2 Timothy 3:16-17

ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTOUSNESS.
17 THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE PERFECT, THROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS.
GOD IS CAPABLE OF PRESERVING HIS WORD THROUGH THE GENERATIONS AND MAKING IT COMPLETE AND AVAILABLE TO US. BUT ONE MUST MUST BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT TO PROPERLY INTERPRET THEM.
1 Corinthians 2:12-16
2 Peter 1:16
2 Timothy 4:4
Click to expand...

Peace be with you.

webshowplace.com/question/Catholic.html: 2Tim 3:16-17 - Notice that this passage says that all scripture is “useful” or “beneficial(NWT) for teaching …”. In other words, it is saying that scripture is beneficial for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, and that all these things make the man of God equipped for every good work. It does not say that ONLY scripture is beneficial for these things. Point out that just as “godly devotion is beneficial for all things” (1Tim 4:8, NWT), making “firm assertions constantly” is beneficial (Tit 3:8, NWT), and “the manifestation of the spirit” is beneficial (1Cor 12:7 NWT), use of scripture is also beneficial. Also, when Paul was talking about “scripture”, he was referring to Old Testament scripture since that was the only scripture available at the time. There are not many Christians alive today who believe that only Old Testament scripture is sufficient as the basis of all their religious beliefs. The fact is, there are many references in the Bible to the use of scripture, but nowhere in the Bible does it say that ONLY the Bible should be used as the sole basis for religious beliefs. The reality of Sola Scriptura is that it is a doctrine that came to the forefront during the Protestant Reformation. When the reformers rejected the authority of the Catholic Church, they needed some other source for their authority and the Bible was used for this purpose. This has since resulted in tremendous division among Christians and has led to the formation of thousands of Protestant denominations, each one using the Bible as their rule of faith, but each one different in their religious beliefs and practices.
 
JesusHasMyHeart said:
2 Timothy 3:16-17

ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTOUSNESS.
17 THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE PERFECT, THROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS.
GOD IS CAPABLE OF PRESERVING HIS WORD THROUGH THE GENERATIONS AND MAKING IT COMPLETE AND AVAILABLE TO US. BUT ONE MUST MUST BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT TO PROPERLY INTERPRET THEM.
1 Corinthians 2:12-16
2 Peter 1:16
2 Timothy 4:4
Click to expand...

I guess you ignored my link pointing to another thread in Sacred Scripture forum. Because I explain how this does NOT prove Sola Scriptura. I guess I’ll just copy & paste here for those of you who do not like to click on links and open new windows.
2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for
teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in
righteousness,
17 so that one who belongs to God may be competent,
equipped for every good work.

The operative word here is “useful.” It doesn’t say “sufficient” for teaching. And it doesn’t say that you can teach yourself either. The next verse, 17, says that if you belong to God you can be competent. Well in my Catholic understanding you can only belong to God if you are baptized into the Catholic church. Even if one is baptized in a Protestant church (which makes you my brother/sister in Christ), they are still separated from Peter, the first Bishop of Rome which means, POPE! Do not be separated from Peter. If you are then you will be scattered like sheep without a shepherd. So many Protestant churches are scattered like sheep without a shepherd. There are over 30,000 denominations of Protestantism.

It would be better to read the previous verses in 2nd Timothy;

2 Tim 3:10-15
10 You have followed my teaching, way of life,
purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance,
11 persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me
in Antioch, Iconium, and Lystra, persecutions that I endured.
Yet from all these things the Lord delivered me.
12 In fact, all who want to live religiously in Christ
Jesus will be persecuted.
13 But wicked people and charlatans will go from bad to
worse, deceivers and deceived.
14 But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and
believed, because you know from whom you learned it,
15 and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred
scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for
salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Read verses 10 & 14 again. Paul is telling Timothy that he learned a way of life from him. He also says that Timothy followed his teachings and faith from him too. That sounds like he would’ve learned a lot more than just scripture to me. The most important thing here is that he had to learn it from someone. He learned it from Paul who learned it from Peter.

From whom do the Protestants learn? Are those people in succession of Peter? I don’t think so. Martin Luther broke from Peter and started his own church. Then it all started from there. He was still too “Catholic” for some, so others started their own churches too.

Okay now look at verse 15… it says “from infancy.” To me that means the Old Testament Scriptures. They did not have the NT yet. That should also tell you that they did not have a bible yet either. So “bible alone” did not exist.

Paul even wrote about Tradition!
2 Thess 2:15
15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the
traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or
by a letter of ours.

Scripture as we have it today (NT) did not exist back then. So they did NOT go by Bible Alone! Their “Scripture” was the Old Testament. And their “Teachings” were from the Apostles and the disciples that were appointed by Jesus and the Apostles.​

JesusHasMyHeart, you don’t seem to want to be open to anything that might be true and in this case IS TRUE. JSmitty2005 and jim1130 gave you great links… much better than I could ever explain here. Yet it seems you haven’t read any of those webpages they linked here.
 
To JesusHasMyHeart I just want to know, what are you afraid of? I am being sincere in my question? I feel there is something else going on here. Of course I could be wrong. You don’t have to reply here of course. These are just questions I ask of you for you to think about on your own. So please don’t answer here as it will start a whole different discussion. My brother is a Protestant and there are things going on with him that run deep and he’s in a lot of pain. Not everyone is like that of course.

I would love to ask any and all Protestants out there… Now just try to believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist (which could only be true in the Catholic church btw)… let’s say you believe; Wouldn’t it be great if you could have a REAL and Substantial Personal Relationship with Jesus that is uniquely intimate in the Eucharist? Wouldn’t you love to partake of the one loaf that is Jesus Christ, his one body? Since Jesus told us that unless we eat the flesh of the son of man we have no life in us, wouldn’t you want to have life in you. Jesus said that the person who eats His flesh and drinks His blood abides in Him and in turn He abides in YOU! Wouldn’t you love for Jesus to abide in you in a substantial way so that He can transform you in a way that nothing else can transform you into Christ?

I mentioned to my brother-in-law who is Protestant that the TRUTH is very important and he told me that getting to Heaven is more important. But how do you get to Heaven? What is a way to Heaven? Jesus right? Of course. And what did Jesus say that He is? He is the Way, the Truth & the Life. The Truth is what sets you free. And being Free is being in Heaven with Jesus! So please think about what the Truth could be.
 
40.png
JSmitty2005:
Please refrain from using all caps. It does not strengthen your case. Anyways, this verse does not prove sola scriptura. Even if it said what you want it to say, then it only proves Sola Vetus Testamentum* which is unworkable since we are Christians. But it does not even do that. This verse tells us of the importance of Scripture and its usefullness. It does not, however, say that Scripture is a sufficient pillar and foundation of faith for a Christian. You must have read those links awfully fast. Or maybe you didn’t read them? :confused:

*All references to “Scripture” in the NT are meant towards the OT because they are the only Scriptures that they knew. The NT as we know it did not exist until almost AD 400. For a history of the Bible, go here.
Click to expand...
So by your own admission and demise I might add, admit that not all your doctrines are based upon scripture ?
Then how do you answer Jesus when He said in Matthew 4:4
Jesus answered the devil when being tempted," IT IS WRITTEN, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by* every word* that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

I might note that the first words out of satans mouth in Genesis 3:1 Hath God really said.
Don’t you see it, the first thing the enemy of our souls did was to cast doubt upon the Word of God, he not only caused Eve to question the truth of Gods Word but he also took the liberty to twist it into something that it did not say. And I believe through various cults that are VERY popular and huge today, the first thing they do is attack the Word of God and those who adhere to it strictly.

Lets go on…
John is clarifying in John 1 that Jesus is the Word of God, wouldn’t that qualify as essential ? I think that is a sufficient pillar and foundation to the Christian faith more than the popes who is mere mortal man. The word of God is all about His Word.

John 8:31-32 Jesus said, "If you continue in My Word you are my disciples indeed,
32 and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

Here Jesus is telling us if you truly are His disciple then you would continue (live by, set heart on and be a doer of the word not hearer only) in His word.

In Matthew 13 we have the parrable of the sower and the seed (the word) and the different reactions the word of God has upon
the heart of each individual. So to recieve the word on a soft heart by believing it, would make you a fruitful believer.
What other word can make this claim ? Im sticken with the Word of God.

Even the Psalms is full of the necessity of the Word of God.
Psalm 1
Psalm 119 to name a few

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for teaching for doctrine, the commandments of man, and they made the Word of none effect
because their religion was much more important.
Their is sooooo much more. I used to be Catholic cradle catholic till God showed me through His word, the false teaching and dogmas not only in the history of the Roman church, but many of those carried over to this very day from the dark ages, which is the foundation you today cannot let go of in fear that admission to error would ruin it. The Pharisees were in the same predicament, they would rather kill Jesus, then to lose their positions and religious status. They would turn a blind eye to Jesus and all His wonderful miracles for the sake of religious arrogance. Prov.8:13
Awe, maybe that is why you crucify over and over the Lord Jesus at every mass, as if His once for all death on the cross wasn’t sufficient enough for all eternity, just a thought.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top