Name one Catholic teaching that contradicts Scripture

[rbarcia]

God wrote the Law on the Tablets thru Moses. It took Moses 40 days to carve and write upon the tablets. You have to skip down into the Chapter to see this.

**Exodus 34: 27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.**28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The first set was written by God, but Moses did not have proper respect toward what God created. So God Made Moses do Penance by fasting and making him carve the tablets himself and write the words himself. I believe this was done, so Moses would take more care in not letting this second set be destroyed.

Rbarcia, you just demonstrated the same point that most anti-catholics lean toward. CATHOLICS MUST BE WRONG, SO YOU MUST FIND AN ALTERNATE MEANING OR TOTALLY DISREGARD OTHER VERSES ENTIRELY TO JUSTIFY YOUR OWN STANCE THRU IGNORANCE.

I think you have a complex or somehting, I am not trying to justify anything.

**

Deuteronomy 10

1At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.

2And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

*3And I made an ark of shittim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand.

4And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.*

5And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.

**

The Lord wrote the commandments and the focus of worhsip of the Ark was the Law (and it should have always been the law), not the Ark. You said that God did not write the commandments, the Bible says He did. Even Moses gives God credit as is shown.

 

[RCCDefender]

Am I? What claims have I made of this verse? I just posted it. You are practicing eisgesis (I hope I spelled it right) yourself.

I call my dad father all the time, and my daughters call me dad. Again, I just posted the verse.

What do you mean? What claim did I make? I just posted the verse?

Then what pray tell was your exact point in posting that verse?? (Oh dear, maybe I shouldn’t say it like that! Someone might think I’m actually worshiping rbarcia!) Wasn’t it you who was making a claim about someone else believing something an ECF wrote just because they posted it? Are you saying that when you posted “that verse” you didn’t believe what it said??

My beliefs are not my own eisgesis because I am not interpreting those passages for myself. I am going by the teachings of the Church, which has the proper exegesis. The same Church, I might add, that Christ established and sent the Holy Spirit to lead into all truth. The pillar and foundation of truth, the city set on a hill that cannot be hidden.

You are elevating early writings of church members to that of scripture? Does not the RCC say that the Bible is Inspired by God?

Does the RCC teach that the writings of early church members to be on the same level as that of the Bible?

First off, I did not quote one ECF. Secondly, are you saying that just because the Church chose not to include those writings in the official canon that makes them full of lies??

You still have not provided your proof of a definitive list of the New Testament canon that was in existence from before 235 A.D.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Then what pray tell was your exact point in posting that verse?? (Oh dear, maybe I shouldn’t say it like that! Someone might think I’m actually worshiping rbarcia!) Wasn’t it you who was making a claim about someone else believing something an ECF wrote just because they posted it? Are you saying that when you posted “that verse” you didn’t believe what it said??

My beliefs are not my own eisgesis because I am not interpreting those passages for myself. I am going by the teachings of the Church, which has the proper exegesis. The same Church, I might add, that Christ established and sent the Holy Spirit to lead into all truth. The pillar and foundation of truth, the city set on a hill that cannot be hidden.

First off, I did not quote one ECF. Secondly, are you saying that just because the Church chose not to include those writings in the official canon that makes them full of lies??

You still have not provided your proof of a definitive list of the New Testament canon that was in existence from before 235 A.D.

In addition to RCCDefender,

Catholics quote ECF because they are the only record after the death of the Apostles who can trace their teachings to the Apostles. Jesus did commanded the Apostles, “As the Father had send me, so I send you. Go baptize them in the Name of the Father, Of the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

How did Jesus send the Apostles? He gave them authority, just as the Father did. When the Apostles died they past their teachings to their successors.

Here are Scripture reference of Apostolic Sucession.

scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html#apostolic-II

 

[rbarcia]

In addition to RCCDefender,

Catholics quote ECF because they are the only record after the death of the Apostles who can trace their teachings to the Apostles. Jesus did commanded the Apostles, “As the Father had send me, so I send you. Go baptize them in the Name of the Father, Of the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

This Bible quote states that the Father gave Jesus Authority, and Jesus gave an order.

How did Jesus send the Apostles? He gave them authority, just as the Father did. When the Apostles died they past their teachings to their successors.

Again, you are drawing out meaning? You are stating that Jesus transferred authority here when there is no transfer.

Here are Scripture reference of Apostolic Sucession.

scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html#apostolic-II

These Bible quotes are taken out of context. That means everyone who “laying of the hands” were done to is clergy? In **Acts, 1

20"For," said Peter, “it is written in the book of Psalms,
" ‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’[d] and,
" ‘May another take his place of leadership.’[e] 21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.” **

Judas’s replacement was to fulfill prophecy and to replace the 12th. Notice the criteria is that the man had to be a witness to Christ to be one of the 12. The 12 are to judge the 12 tribes of Israel, that is why this is necessary.

 

[JoeyWarren]

I think you have a complex or somehting, I am not trying to justify anything.

**

Deuteronomy 10

1At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.

2And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

*3And I made an ark of shittim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand.

4And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.***

5And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.

The Lord wrote the commandments and the focus of worhsip of the Ark was the Law (and it should have always been the law), not the Ark. You said that God did not write the commandments, the Bible says He did. Even Moses gives God credit as is shown.

The Lord did not physically write the on the Tablets. The wrote on the tablets thru Moses. God did not physically make the Ark. The Lord made the Ark thru Moses.

In the proper context you don’t have a contradiction of Scripture with respect to Exodus and Dueteronomy.

You taking the hyperliteral view creates a Contradiction between the two.

Context Roland Context.

 

[Mannyfit75]

This Bible quote states that the Father gave Jesus Authority, and Jesus gave an order.

Yes, the Father gave Jesus Authority. When Jesus ascended to the Father, or rather before he ascended into heaven Jesus grant the Apostles authority.

If you want to go indepth I recommend you download this MP3 from John Martignoni, a Catholic Apologist.

biblechristiansociety.com/download/mp3/apostolic_authority_and_the_pope.mp3

The download is free.

 

[Mannyfit75]

This Bible quote states that the Father gave Jesus Authority, and Jesus gave an order.

No they are not taken out of context. There is one problem you have. If the Jesus did not pass down his teaching to the Apostles and then their successors? How would Jesus Christ preached his Gospel to the “ENDS of the EARTH?”

The Apostles in their lifetime are going to be killed, surely they handed their teachings to the Elders.

Jesus also said to the Apostles, I will be always with you until the End of Time. Jesus remain in the Church.

Apostolic Succession has been here for 2,000 yrs.

I like to ask you a question, how do you know the Books listed in the Bible are inspire? Who made the list? Did you not know there were other books claimed to be inspired? I’m sure you heard of them. The Gnostic Gospels.

 

[MariaG]

Then please show me the Scriptures

Hi Oliver,

The scriptures have been posted many times. One can certainly disagree on the interpretation. I will just post the link to Scripture Catholic for the verses and the explanations.

Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant

Mary’s Immaculate Conception (Early Church Fathers)

How Can You Say That Mary Is the ‘New Eve’? by Kenneth J. Howell in This Rock from CA.

originally posted by M_Oliver

(see above link)

Maria. No, I DO NOT believe those who have “come along”. Calvin was an evil man. He burned a man alive at the stake. Does anyone not know this? Choose to ignore it?

I’ve said it repeatedly, I am not of ANY faith, church, denomination or whatever label you prefer, that you are capable of recognizing at this point in time.

Ignore what Oliver? Not sure how this argument helps you. I am perfectly aware that you choose not to accept any label. And in fact, I also recognize that the “gospel according to Oliver” is so far different that calling it Protestant is probably a disservice to Protestant Christians.

What you unfortunately fail to see is that the gospel you preach is not the gospel preached by the apostles, faithfully passed down in the Catholic Church, the Church Christ established and therefore you yourself are one of those who have “come along” and scripture warns us against.

originally posted by M_Oliver (see above link)

Whoever has accused me of boasting when I have said this in the past is a liar. I am not boasting. In fact I am humbled by how much I do not yet know in the Scriptures!

Not sure what this is about Oliver. Except that you always claim to know the interpretation of Scripture and refuse to listen to any other interpretation even though your interpretation was not recorded by anyone in the early Church?

originally posted by M_Oliver (see above link)

It is a Scriptural truth that God purposes some to understand more than others.

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? (Matthew 13:10)

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (Matthew 13:11)

Who is the them? Have you ever thought about this? Scripture reveals that it is the multitudes…could that be the billions of professing Christians? The BILLIONS. Do you think that catholics, protestants and everyone else with a label JUST MIGHT fit in this group?

Yes it is true that some are given greater understanding than others. And scripture tells us that scripture can be hard to understand and that we must look to good teachers. Then of course scripture tells us instructions on how to pick those teachers. That we must entrust it to trustworthy men. We also see that a light cannot be hidden. So where are the trustworthy men in history who preach a gospel that you do?

As for the BILLIONS of professing Christians, the truth is simple. Christ tells us to let the weeds and the wheat all grow together. There will be many who do not expect to see hell that will end up there, many of them who claim to be Catholic, Baptist, Evangelical and those who claim to have not labe at all also.

part one

 

[MariaG]

It is a Scriptural truth that there are many who THINK they are in Christ but really are not.

For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14)

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Luke 6:46)

Again. Do you REALLY believe that EVERY catholic on this planet since Christ makes up the chosen few? It is impossible. Does every catholic, protestant and everyone else with a label DO THE THINGS which Christ says?

No Oliver I don’t. But then the Catholic Church does not teach that just because one is Catholic one is assured of salvation so once again, I don’t see the point of this argument.

You all have members who support murder in the name of war, death penalties and abortion, do you not? Of course you do. Yet YOU ALL think you are right and anyone who dares point these facts out is wrong.

Your problem, not mine

The Catholic church has never claimed that its members are impeccable in behavoir. If you believe you have never sinned, your problem is worse than I thought. If you are not claiming that you never sin, then I fail to see why if invidiual members sin who actually claim to follow a particular set of beliefs are held to a higher standard than you hold yourself to.

Your set of beliefs and interpretation of Scripture is right and you never sin? Or if that is not your claim then how can the fact that Catholics claim to be right but its member sin be a contradiction?

Or is it that you don’t claim to be 100% right? If not, what are you wrong about?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[RCCDefender]

This Bible quote states that the Father gave Jesus Authority, and Jesus gave an order.

Again, you are drawing out meaning? You are stating that Jesus transferred authority here when there is no transfer.

Let’s read this Bible quote again. "“As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” John 20:21 Let’s break this down and examine it, shall we? “As the father has sent me,” You said this quote states that the Father gave Jesus authority. “So I send you,” so Jesus is sending His Apostles in the same way his Father sent Him - with authority. Yep, I see the transfer right there!!

 

[rbarcia]

rbarcia;1494836:

This Bible quote states that the Father gave Jesus Authority, and Jesus gave an order.

No they are not taken out of context. There is one problem you have. If the Jesus did not pass down his teaching to the Apostles and then their successors? How would Jesus Christ preached his Gospel to the “ENDS of the EARTH?”

Authority to preach the Gospel does not translate to authority to interpret scripture. Jesus gave us a job to preach the gospel. The gospel is still being preached today.

The Apostles in their lifetime are going to be killed, surely they handed their teachings to the Elders.

Jesus also said to the Apostles, I will be always with you until the End of Time. Jesus remain in the Church.

Yes, He still is with the church

Apostolic Succession has been here for 2,000 yrs.

I like to ask you a question, how do you know the Books listed in the Bible are inspire? Who made the list? Did you not know there were other books claimed to be inspired? I’m sure you heard of them. The Gnostic Gospels.

God guides all events, how do you know which books are in the Torah? How do you know about the Psalms? God’s guidance in the council does not translate to RCC today being an authority on its translation. With that line of arguement, then the Jews are the only one who are authorized to translate the Old Testement.

As it is, it is God who speaks to those looking for Thruth. And it it the Holy Spirit who is the authority of His word.

**

Romans 5:5

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

1 Cor 2:13

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

2 Peter 1

20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

**

catholics often quote verse 20, but leave off verse 21, that it is the Holy Ghost. He does not say the church, but the Holy Ghost.

Scripture comes from God, and scripture brings the knowledge for salvation.

**

2 Timothy 3

14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

**

 

[RCCDefender]

God guides all events, how do you know which books are in the Torah? How do you know about the Psalms? God’s guidance in the council does not translate to RCC today being an authority on its translation.

So are you saying that God took His authority away from the Church? Or that God only gave authority to the Church in the matter of establishing the canon and then took it back away? The gates of hell did prevail against the Church??

 

[MariaG]

Authority to preach the Gospel does not translate to authority to interpret scripture. Jesus gave us a job to preach the gospel. The gospel is still being preached today.

Respectfully, that makes no sense.

Christ entrusted the gospel to the apostles who then left instructions in scripture to entrust it to faithful men and guard against false prophets or any one who teaches a gospel contrary to what they taught.

How can they do that if in fact they were not in fact given the the living breathing authority to interpret the scripture? How could they KNOW if someone was teaching a gospel contrary to what they were taught if they lacked the authority to interpret what was written?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Mickey]

How can they do that if in fact they were not in fact given the the living breathing authority to interpret the scripture? How could they KNOW if someone was teaching a gospel contrary to what they were taught if they lacked the authority to interpret what was written?

Excellent point. Maria.

 

[E.E.N.S]

This Bible quote states that the Father gave Jesus Authority, and Jesus gave an order.

Again, you are drawing out meaning? You are stating that Jesus transferred authority here when there is no transfer.

.

I am sure that someone else has already addressed this (but I am just catching up from yesterday, lol)

John 20:
**21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. **

 

[JoeyWarren]

Roland, you have not responded to comment #643

 

[Mannyfit75]

rbarcia;1494961:

Respectfully, that makes no sense.

Christ entrusted the gospel to the apostles who then left instructions in scripture to entrust it to faithful men and guard against false prophets or any one who teaches a gospel contrary to what they taught.

How can they do that if in fact they were not in fact given the the living breathing authority to interpret the scripture? How could they KNOW if someone was teaching a gospel contrary to what they were taught if they lacked the authority to interpret what was written?

God Bless,
Maria

I don’t think I wrote that. I know only the Church has the authority to intrepret Scripture. Peter warn us that self intrepretation can be dangerous for one’s soul.

 

[RCCDefender]

I don’t think I wrote that. I know only the Church has the authority to intrepret Scripture. Peter warn us that self intrepretation can be dangerous for one’s soul.

Nope, you didn’t. rbarcia did. Apparently, when two
so-and-so:

are side by side the person the quote is attributed to is the second person. Like, here in post #655, the quote was actually by Maria but it looks as though rbarcia said it.

 

[M_Oliver]

These men were in fact closer to Jesus’ time than you and I are. There teachings are fully orthodox. So you are saying that we should not listen to the apostles [or there succesors] because they are mere men? Well I think that Jesus greatly differs.

Oh were they REALLY? ALL of them? Come on. Read the Scriptures my friend…

For certain men have crept in unawares, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, changing the grace of our God into licentiousness and denying the only Master God and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:4)

Could these be some of the “successors” you talk about? How do YOU know? The answer is you don’t. It is very obvious.

 

[M_Oliver]

Let’s read this Bible quote again. "“As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” John 20:21 Let’s break this down and examine it, shall we? “As the father has sent me,” You said this quote states that the Father gave Jesus authority. “So I send you,” so Jesus is sending His Apostles in the same way his Father sent Him - with authority. Yep, I see the transfer right there!!

The transfer WHERE? To the “church” you say He did? Again, you demonstrate that you have NO Scriptural proof for ANY of your assumptions. All I am asking for is some Scriptural PROOF for your claims. You repeatedly refuse to do it. I know why! You cannot.