Name one Catholic teaching that contradicts Scripture

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Hi Stanley:wave: ,
You are taking Pope’s words out of context to imply he did not approve of abstinence in order to not conceive children.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html
  1. And now, Venerable Brethren, we shall explain in detail the evils opposed to each of the benefits of matrimony. First consideration is due to the offspring, which many have the boldness to call the disagreeable burden of matrimony and** which they say is to be carefully avoided by married people not through virtuous continence (which Christian law permits in matrimony when both parties consent)**
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but by frustrating the marriage act. Some justify this criminal abuse on the ground that they are weary of children and wish to gratify their desires without their consequent burden. Others say that they cannot on the one hand remain continent nor on the other can they have children because of the difficulties whether on the part of the mother or on the part of family circumstances.

It is not intrinsically evil or against nature to abstain from marital relations. Your one snippet of quote is talking about that which is intrinsically against nature being used to prevent conception being wrong. Abstaining from marital relations is not intrinsically against nature.

Pope Pius XI, *Casti Connubii *(#’s 53-56), Dec. 31, 1930:“But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good.”
 
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stanley123:
The Scriptural passage is not talking about getting pregnant before puberty. It is talking about a married couple. And the Archangel instructs the married couple that to engage in the marital act you must be moved by love of children. There is no mention in this Scriptural passage of any exceptions.
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Bill,
You have completely ignored the rest of my post. Read the link. If you are truly seeking an honest answer with an open heart, you will find it. You will also find that it is in perfect harmony with Scripture.

May God bless you and your family richly!
RyanL
 
Stanley123 - You have used a quote from Casti Connubii to support the idea that NFP is against Scripture and the Church’s teaching. This is amazing to me since you have made it quite clear in all of your other posts about contraception, that you believe the Catholic Church should soften their stance on contraception. The argument you have used is that most Catholics use artificial contraception anyway. What in Scripture supports your view that if the Church teaches against something but enough people disagree with it, the Church should change their teaching?

Quote from Stanley123 -This contradicts the following Scriptural passage: Tobias 6:17 – “The holy youth Tobias approaches his bride Sara after three days of prayer, not for fleshly lust but only for the love of posterity. Having been instructed by the Archangel Saint Rapheal that to engage in the marital act he must be moved rather for love of children than for lust. For they who in such manner receive matrimony, as to shut out God from themselves, and from their mind, and to give themselves to their lust, as the horse and mule, which have not understanding, over them the devil hath power.”
The meticulous calculations of NFP are designed so that the couple may “give themselves to their lust, as the horse and mule” and may avoid having children at the same time. So NFP is against Scripture, but it has been indicated that NFP is in accordance with Catholic teaching (today but I don’t know about before 1950).

“To engage in the marital act he must be moved rather for the love of children than for lust… etc.” - None of this contradicts NFP. The Archangel does not say couples are required to engage in the marital act as many times as they are physically capable. It says that when a couple does engage in the marital act, they must be open to the possibility of conceiving a child. This in no way indicts NFP. A couple who use no contraception while having intercourse are by definition open to the conception of a child. How is not having intercourse (as in NFP) “giving in to lust”?
 
Stanley,
You appear to be jumping around from quote to quote to Scripture passage. It appears as if when someone brings up Scripture to refute on thing you jump to a different passage and issue.

Which do you wish to argue, that the **Church has changed its position **and abstinence is unacceptable in order to limit the size of a family? NFP is not a tool that can be used in conjuction with abstinence?

or that Scripture tells us abstinence is unacceptable to limit the size of the family? Or just abstinence in conjunction with NFP?

Different issues. Which issue are you wishing to focus on?

Note, I do not think you are delibrately trying to evade issues, I am just getting confused on what you are really trying to discuss and debate.
 
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stanley123:
According to Scripture, Archangel Saint Raphael say that to engage in the marital act you must be moved by love of children.
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Stanley, could you please repeat the passage number where you found that in the book of Tobit? The number you sighted in my Bible say the Archangel St. Raphael commanded Tobiah to place fish liver and heart on embers for the incense in the bridal chambers. (I hope he didn’t mean we all have to use fish insense.😉 )
 
I once heard someone state that using clips from the bible, they could prove that aliens are coming to pick us all up in 50 years.

This is the problem with grabbing a verse or a few words to support any doctrine. It must be taken with full context.

I don’t think the RCC has made up anything from thin air. It can all be supported using bible pieces.

However there are many teachings that are hard to fully support biblically. This is where “TRADITION” fills the void.

Such as:

Infant baptism
Priest Celebacy
Wine (His blood) not being served during communion
Purgatory
Mary’s immaculate conception
Lent
Easter
Last Rites

But really, the teachings of Jesus Christ not a church should be our focus. There can be no doubt about what God desires of us when we have His teachings in His word.
 
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stanley123:
The Scriptual passage from the online DouayRheims version is slightly different from what I have quoted. Tobias, chapter 6:

17 For they who in such manner receive matrimony, as to shut out God from themselves, and from their mind, and to give themselves to their lust, as the horse and mule, which have not understanding, over them the devil hath power.

22 And when the third night is past, thou shalt take the virgin with the fear of the Lord, moved rather for love of children than for lust, that in the seed of Abraham thou mayst obtain a blessing in children.

drbo.org/chapter/17006.htm
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Here is a match game:

Scenario 1: A couple have intercourse and the woman uses birth control pills. “I forgot to take one of my pills”, the wife tells her husband, “I hope I don’t get pregnant.”

Scenario 2: A married couple have intercourse without artificial contraception during a time which they believe the woman is not near ovulation.

In which scenario has the couple “given in to lust” and which is “open to the love of children”?
 
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ruzz:
I once heard someone state that using clips from the bible, they could prove that aliens are coming to pick us all up in 50 years.
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This is the best argument against Sola Scriptura so far! High five!
 
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Eden:
This is the best argument against Sola Scriptura so far! High five!
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That is why you can’t use bible BITES. Using only 1 verse and ignoring the whole context of the chapter will get you in deep trouble. God didn’t write the bible for only one verse to be used to support a doctrine. He wrote it so the books can create a doctrine. The words in RED being extremely important. 🙂

On the contrary, you have a hard time supporting doctrines like holy water, Christmas and Easter without the NEW Traditions of men. These were certainly not taught by Jesus.
 
A couple of things here.
  1. The thread concerns whether or not there is a Catholic teaching which contradicts a Scriptural reference. The fact that you do not like quotations from Scripture is different from the question raised.
  2. The Archangel was not talking about abstinence. I am also not talking about abstinence. I don’t see anything wrong with abstinence.
    Archangel says that to engage in the marital act you must be moved rather for love of children than for lust.
  3. For a link to the Scriptural reference, please see:
    drbo.org/chapter/17006.htm
  4. If you use NFP to avoid children, you are making detailed calculations involving thermometers, charts, and cycles in order to have marital relations and avoid children. Why wouldn’t this be against the instruction of the Archangel.
 
The topic of birth control seems to be fitting for its own thread.

Isn’t the goal of NFP to prevent pregnancy?
It’s not 100% effective, there’s always the chance of pregnacy. If it’s His will, it will happen.

I knew somone who had a vasectomy and they still got pregnant. Obviously God’s will prevailed. Point being that artificial birth control always has the chance for pregnancy also. It’s not 100% effective either.

So aren’t the two methods really the same?
 
Having been a Catholic and practiced NFP, I am with Stanley on this one (not about it being non scriptural, I haven’t done my homework, but about it not really being all that different from ABC, except abortifacients)

I am not saying NFP can’t be used in the way the church states, openess to children and all, but often it is not. Our sex, during NFP days was much more often due to out and out lust, because we were always terrified of conceiving, and only 'gave in" when desire got the better of us. Now, post vasectomy, our lovemaking is much more loving, and about giving to one another, because we are not “giving in”, and not constantly thinking “hope we don’t get pregnant” etc.

There are probably couples out there who do practice NFP in the spirit in which the scripture and the church intend. But there are many who use it exactly the way they would use ABC, and I agree with Stanley, there is no difference there.
Just because it is NFP doesn’t mean the couple is truly open to children, perhaps they are, but it is likely they are also grudgingly open, or not open but will deal with the consequences because…they are so horny.

I am a better wife and mother now, much more loving and peaceful.

cheddar
 
Here is my Catholic teaching the contradicts Scripture. Adoration of Christ, worship of Christ. When a disciple fell down before Christ, he rebuked him and said, “None but the Father is good” and instructed the man NOT to worship him.

I have never had this explained to me, why the focus is on Christ, when he himself placed the focus on the Father.

cheddar
 
Isn’t a calendar or thermometer an Artifical Birth Control device?

If NFP is as effective as ABC, then ABC ALSO has the possibility for pregnancy.
 
Hi guys, I just have a few minutes. Ruzz I am not ignoring you, but I will address Stanley first.

Stanley, I did not say I did not like scripture quotes. I said you seem to be jumping topics.

NFP is the practice of abstinence, or virtuous continence which church law permits. To determine when a couple should be abstinent (for a grave reason), one uses all the stuff that comes with it.

So yes, you are talking about abstinence.
 
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cheddarsox:
Here is my Catholic teaching the contradicts Scripture. Adoration of Christ, worship of Christ. When a disciple fell down before Christ, he rebuked him and said, “None but the Father is good” and instructed the man NOT to worship him.

I have never had this explained to me, why the focus is on Christ, when he himself placed the focus on the Father.

cheddar
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Here is one reference which addresses this:

newadvent.org/summa/402502.htm

and another: newadvent.org/summa/402500.htm
 
posted by cheddarsox
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Having been a Catholic and practiced NFP, I am with Stanley on this one (not about it being non scriptural, I haven’t done my homework, but about it not really being all that different from ABC, **except abortifacients)
**
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That’s a pretty significant exception. Murder, not murder.
I am not saying NFP can’t be used in the way the church states, openess to children and all, but often it is not.
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Alcohol can be used too, but it is often abused. Should the Church not allow alcohol because some abuse it?
There are probably couples out there who do practice NFP in the spirit in which the scripture and the church intend. But there are many who use it exactly the way they would use ABC, and I agree with Stanley, there is no difference there.
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But why just because someone abuses something, using it not the way God intended, it make the actual act itself sinful? For example, some has sex outside of marriage. Does that make sex sinful inside of Marriage? No. You have to judge the act itself. And no one here is saying that NFP is always used in a way that conforms to all the teaching of the church and Scripture.

We are just saying that NFP, the actual teaching of NFP is completely in line with Scripture and Church teachings.
 
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ruzz:
That is why you can’t use bible BITES. Using only 1 verse and ignoring the whole context of the chapter will get you in deep trouble. God didn’t write the bible for only one verse to be used to support a doctrine. He wrote it so the books can create a doctrine. The words in RED being extremely important. 🙂

On the contrary, you have a hard time supporting doctrines like holy water, Christmas and Easter without the NEW Traditions of men. These were certainly not taught by Jesus.
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This response works against Sola Scriptura again. In fact, it supports having a Magisterium.
 
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ruzz:
Isn’t a calendar or thermometer an Artifical Birth Control device?

If NFP is as effective as ABC, then ABC ALSO has the possibility for pregnancy.
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Yes. I see that they are exactly the same! Because calendars and thermometers can also be used to try to conceive a child just like taking birth control pills or using “protection” can also be used to try to conceive a child … oops I mean… 😛
 
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