Name one Catholic teaching that contradicts Scripture

[kujo313]

jesusfirst:

does anyone know spanish here??

i know that in spanish the Hail Mary prayer starts off

dios te salve maria, llena eres de gracia…

which translates: god save you maria, full grace…

if she needs salvation, why is she sinless. of course the hail mary prayer isn’t in the bible, but that’s a whole other matter.

sonia

1 Samuel 2
Hannah’s Prayer
1 And Hannah prayed and said:

  “My heart rejoices in the LORD; 
  My horn[a] is exalted in the LORD. 
  I smile at my enemies, 
  Because I rejoice in Your salvation.

2 “No one is holy like the LORD,
For there is none besides You,
Nor is there any rock like our God.

3 “Talk no more so very proudly;
Let no arrogance come from your mouth,
For the LORD is the God of knowledge;
And by Him actions are weighed.

4 “The bows of the mighty men are broken,
And those who stumbled are girded with strength.

5 Those who were full have hired themselves out for bread,
And the hungry have ceased to hunger.
Even the barren has borne seven,
And she who has many children has become feeble.

6 “The LORD kills and makes alive;
He brings down to the grave and brings up.

7 The LORD makes poor and makes rich;
He brings low and lifts up.

8 He raises the poor from the dust
And lifts the beggar from the ash heap,
To set them among princes
And make them inherit the throne of glory.

  “For the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, 
  And He has set the world upon them.

9 He will guard the feet of His saints,
But the wicked shall be silent in darkness.

  “For by strength no man shall prevail.

10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken in pieces;
From heaven He will thunder against them.
The LORD will judge the ends of the earth.

  “He will give strength to His king, 
  And exalt the horn of His anointed.”

Compare that to “The Song of Mary”.

Jesus never did encourage people to focus on Mary but on God and God alone. Sure, if we thought about it, we can even come up with stuff about Joseph, the “Holy Stepfather”. He CHOSE that role, knowing he didn’t father the child.
Instead of going around and around in here, you will not convince them. Even if you point out that Mary didn’t “ascend” into Heaven until 1950 when people pressured the pope to declare that.
Before then, she was an extraordinary woman.

 

[George_Waters]

jesusfirst:

does anyone know spanish here??

i know that in spanish the Hail Mary prayer starts off

dios te salve maria, llena eres de gracia…

which translates: god save you maria, full grace…

if she needs salvation, why is she sinless. of course the hail mary prayer isn’t in the bible, but that’s a whole other matter.

sonia

Nope that prayer is not in the Bible verbatum (Neither is the word Trinity, but you unquestioningly believe in the Trinity don’t you?) but that does not mean it is not biblical.

catholic.com/library/Rosary.asp

The Hail Mary

The next prayer in the rosary, and the prayer which is really at the center of the devotion, is the Hail Mary. Since the Hail Mary is a prayer to Mary, many Protestants assume it’s unbiblical. Quite the contrary, actually. Let’s look at it.

The prayer begins, “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.” This is nothing other than the greeting the angel Gabriel gave Mary in Luke 1:28 (Confraternity Version). The next part reads this way:

“Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” This was exactly what Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said to her in Luke 1:42. The only thing that has been added to these two verses are the names “Jesus” and “Mary,” to make clear who is being referred to. So the first part of the Hail Mary is entirely biblical.

The second part of the Hail Mary is not taken straight from Scripture, but it is entirely biblical in the thoughts it expresses. It reads:

“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”

Let’s look at the first words. Some Protestants do object to saying “Holy Mary” because they claim Mary was a sinner like the rest of us. But Mary was a Christian (the first Christian, actually, the first to accept Jesus; cf. Luke 1:45), and the Bible describes Christians in general as holy. In fact, they are called saints, which means “holy ones” (Eph. 1:1, Phil. 1:1, Col. 1:2). Furthermore, as the mother of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Mary was certainly a very holy woman.

Some Protestants object to the title “Mother of God,” but suffice it to say that the title doesn’t mean Mary is older than God; it means the person who was born of her was a divine person, not a human person. (Jesus is one person, the divine, but has two natures, the divine and the human; it is incorrect to say he is a human person.) The denial that Mary had God in her womb is a heresy known as Nestorianism (which claims that Jesus was two persons, one divine and one human), which has been condemned since the early 400s and which the Reformers and Protestant Bible scholars have always rejected.

 

[kujo313]

George Waters:

Nope that prayer is not in the Bible verbatum (Neither is the word Trinity, but you unquestioningly believe in the Trinity don’t you?) but that does not mean it is not biblical.

catholic.com/library/Rosary.asp

The Hail Mary

The next prayer in the rosary, and the prayer which is really at the center of the devotion, is the Hail Mary. Since the Hail Mary is a prayer to Mary, many Protestants assume it’s unbiblical. Quite the contrary, actually. Let’s look at it.

The prayer begins, “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.” This is nothing other than the greeting the angel Gabriel gave Mary in Luke 1:28 (Confraternity Version). The next part reads this way:

“Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” This was exactly what Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said to her in Luke 1:42. The only thing that has been added to these two verses are the names “Jesus” and “Mary,” to make clear who is being referred to. So the first part of the Hail Mary is entirely biblical.

The second part of the Hail Mary is not taken straight from Scripture, but it is entirely biblical in the thoughts it expresses. It reads:

“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”

Let’s look at the first words. Some Protestants do object to saying “Holy Mary” because they claim Mary was a sinner like the rest of us. But Mary was a Christian (the first Christian, actually, the first to accept Jesus; cf. Luke 1:45), and the Bible describes Christians in general as holy. In fact, they are called saints, which means “holy ones” (Eph. 1:1, Phil. 1:1, Col. 1:2). Furthermore, as the mother of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Mary was certainly a very holy woman.

Some Protestants object to the title “Mother of God,” but suffice it to say that the title doesn’t mean Mary is older than God; it means the person who was born of her was a divine person, not a human person. (Jesus is one person, the divine, but has two natures, the divine and the human; it is incorrect to say he is a human person.) The denial that Mary had God in her womb is a heresy known as Nestorianism (which claims that Jesus was two persons, one divine and one human), which has been condemned since the early 400s and which the Reformers and Protestant Bible scholars have always rejected.

UGH! I’m not going to drag myself into this over and over.

Just answer this:

You say: “Mary points us to Jesus” and “Saint (fill in the blank) points us to Christ.”

Why not just go to Christ because He said “Come onto Me”?

Take out the “middle-man” and go straight to Jesus? Knowing enough of Leviticus and Pauline letters, I know that I can go straight to God because I’m covered with the blood of Jesus.

In one topic, I was told that If I deny the deity of Mary, then I deny Christ. I know that God could’ve created Jesus out of rocks. Manna came from Heaven and water came from a rock.

I know that Mary being pregnant with Jesus was a miracle and fulfillment of prophecy.

I do not like being looked down upon, or being told I’m wrong, just because I say I don’t have to go through Mary to get to God.

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

In one topic, I was told that If I deny the deity of Mary, then I deny Christ.

Why do you continue to insist that Catholics believe Mary is a deity?

 

[ChiFaithful]

kujo313:

I do not like being looked down upon, or being told I’m wrong, just because I say I don’t have to go through Mary to get to God.

The misconception on your part, and the part of most protestants, is that you may believe that Catholics think any differently. We don’t need Mary to get to God either. Jesus is God. Nevertheless, Jesus gave us many tremendous things, such as the sacraments and the Saints, which we can utilize as his children on Earth to get closer to him. Mary doesn’t save us. Jesus saves us. But if Mary is close to Jesus now, I certainly am willing let her pray for me and others around me. That’s just common sense to me. Sure, Jesus could do everything himself, but he gave us tools to use, and Mary is one of them.

It’s not a matter of “you have to…”. It’s rather a matter of “you can.”

 

[MariaG]

“Name one Catholic teaching that contradicts Scripture”
There is a teaching of the Catholic Church that women do not have to wear headcovering and are allowed to read and to lead the entire Communion service in Church. This contradicts passages in Scripture as written by St. Paul.

Hi Kirane,

In Scripture, Christ also gave the Church the right to make and change, (bind and loose) the rules. (See Matt 16:19 or there about)

Some rules cannot be changed due to their nature, like only men being priests. Others are based on culture. Cultural has changed and as per Scripture allows, some rules are allowed to be changed. So no, there is no contradiction for women to not wear headcoverings. Some rules CAN be changed. Christ gave the Church the power to do so.

As for your other contention, I do not have time right now to address it, but I will make a new thread for it since it is much more lenghty. But it will have to wait.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

kujo313:

In one topic, I was told that If I deny the **deity **of Mary, then I deny Christ. I know that God could’ve created Jesus out of rocks. Manna came from Heaven and water came from a rock.

Where???

And even IF you were, that person is 100% completely wrong if they represented themselves as a Catholic Christian.

Since official CAtholic Teaching nowhere tells us that Mary is a deity. Just the opposite.

You frequently claim that others have said things to you here in this forum but never back those claims up.

Where did someone say those words on this forum to you?

 

[Alfie]

kujo313:

UGH! I’m not going to drag myself into this over and over.

Just answer this:

You say: “Mary points us to Jesus” and “Saint (fill in the blank) points us to Christ.”

Why not just go to Christ because He said “Come onto Me”?

Take out the “middle-man” and go straight to Jesus? Knowing enough of Leviticus and Pauline letters, I know that I can go straight to God because I’m covered with the blood of Jesus.

In one topic, I was told that If I deny the deity of Mary, then I deny Christ. I know that God could’ve created Jesus out of rocks. Manna came from Heaven and water came from a rock.

I know that Mary being pregnant with Jesus was a miracle and fulfillment of prophecy.

I do not like being looked down upon, or being told I’m wrong, just because I say I don’t have to go through Mary to get to God.

Since God is our Father that denotes a personal relationship with him. I could use the analogy that God is the owner of a large company and I am his son. If God is at work at his company and I need to call and talk to him … than that is exactly what I do. I call him at his private number and talk to him. Now lets use the same analogy if I am a Catholic. God is the owner of a company and I am his son, that means I do not have a close relationship with him so I ask the janitor (a saint) in the company if there is some way I can contact my father. But the janitor doesn’t have the power to contact him.

 

[Alfie]

MariaG:

Since official CAtholic Teaching nowhere tells us that Mary is a deity.

No it doesn’t. It is more subtle about it like when it compares her to the Ark of the Covenant. Oh I know she is just a container like the Ark. Why isn’t all this tradition written down in the Bible? If it was we would not be going through this rigamarole, there would not have been a Reformation and I would not be on this forum.

 

[Eden]

Alfie:

Since God is our Father that denotes a personal relationship with him. I could use the analogy that God is the owner of a large company and I am his son. If God is at work at his company and I need to call and talk to him … than that is exactly what I do. I call him at his private number and talk to him. Now lets use the same analogy if I am a Catholic. God is the owner of a company and I am his son, that means I do not have a close relationship with him so I ask the janitor (a saint) in the company if there is some way I can contact my father. But the janitor doesn’t have the power to contact him.

Your analogy doesn’t make sense, one of them being that all saints would be sons/daughters of God as well, not “janitors” who have no power to contact Him.

There are many reasons why the analogy is flawed, that’ just one of them.

 

[Eden]

Alfie:

No it doesn’t.

Thank you. Catholic theology does not teach that Mary is a deity. End of story.

 

[john_ennis]

Alfie:

No it doesn’t. It is more subtle about it like when it compares her to the Ark of the Covenant. Oh I know she is just a container like the Ark. Why isn’t all this tradition written down in the Bible? If it was we would not be going through this rigamarole, there would not have been a Reformation and I would not be on this forum.

I don’t think the Reformation was about Mary being the Ark of the New Covenant. Nor was it about her being Immaculate, or ever-virgin.

The Reformers were more than okay with this, yes?

Peace.
John

 

[LilyM]

Eden:

Your analogy doesn’t make sense, one of them being that all saints would be sons/daughters of God as well, not “janitors” who have no power to contact Him.

There are many reasons why the analogy is flawed, that’ just one of them.

I come from a family of five girls. I have no problems approaching them on my own, but if I can have additional moral or practical support from one or more of them then I’ll happily accept it.

For one thing there’s no law that says I have to or should do absolutely everything on my own, for another thing they also get to feel good and look good for helping me.

Paul himself regularly mentions his prayers for the communities he’s writing to and asks them to pray for each other as well. Why would we not do the same.

Saints are in heaven and able to communicate with God. Look at the story of Lazarus and the rich man, even from HELL the rich man is able to communicate and make requests for his family on Earth, not that his prayers were answered. Had he been in heaven, I imagine they would have been.

 

[Eden]

LilyM - Are you answering me or Alfie? I was responding to this:

Alfie:

God is the owner of a company and I am his son, that means I do not have a close relationship with him so I ask the janitor (a saint) in the company if there is some way I can contact my father. But the janitor doesn’t have the power to contact him.

 

[LilyM]

Eden:

LilyM - Are you answering me or Alfie? I was responding to this:

Ummm … both … kinda expanding on your response to him I guess

 

[kujo313]

Eden:

Why do you continue to insist that Catholics believe Mary is a deity?

Wasn’t me. It was somebody on another room. One of your own.

 

[kujo313]

Alfie:

Since God is our Father that denotes a personal relationship with him. I could use the analogy that God is the owner of a large company and I am his son. If God is at work at his company and I need to call and talk to him … than that is exactly what I do. I call him at his private number and talk to him. Now lets use the same analogy if I am a Catholic. God is the owner of a company and I am his son, that means I do not have a close relationship with him so I ask the janitor (a saint) in the company if there is some way I can contact my father. But the janitor doesn’t have the power to contact him.

I prefer it this way:

God is the Owner. Other employees before are now retired. The Owner’s Son gives me permission to speak to the Owner any time I want (He has an open-door policy!).
When I go to the Owner, I tell Him “Your Son said I can come and talk to you.”

Ask about the retirees and the Son will tell you: “They’re enjoying their retirement. I prepared a room for them at my Father’s Retirement Home.”

Because of Jesus, we can walk straight to God. We don’t have to stop at the front desk, or ask a retiree to pass it on that we want to talk to Him.

Also:

Back then, nobody knew who Jesus was until He showed up and preached. Somewhere out there was some people who knew the Scriptures. Jesus revealed Himself as the Messiah. THEN they knew!
Right then and there, the people had the chance to be told about the “Blessed Virgin”.

(hears crickets)

Nothing.

Except… the one woman who told Jesus that Mary was blessed. Jesus redirected the people towards God and obedience.
Today, you would tell people all about the “Holy Mother” and how she’s the mother of us all.
But let’s stick to “tradition”. Jesus taught the Gospel, the Good News about the Kingdom of God.

Don’t lose your focus! Let Jesus redirect you. You don’t need anybody to point you to Jesus, follow Him yourself.

If you want to admire Mary, you have that right. If you want to go through somebody to get to Jesus, you can do that, too.

But you don’t have to.

 

[Eden]

LilyM:

Ummm … both … kinda expanding on your response to him I guess

O.K. Thanks. I wasn’t sure if you thought I had come up with the “janitor” scenario. Just wanted to make sure no one thought I was comparing saints to “janitors who have no influence” .

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

Wasn’t me. It was somebody on another room. One of your own.

Someone said that he said that she said when we were at church you said that he said… Please. You know that the Church does not teach that Mary is a deity. Yet you continue to bear false witness.

 

[kujo313]

Eden:

O.K. Thanks. I wasn’t sure if you thought I had come up with the “janitor” scenario. Just wanted to make sure no one thought I was comparing saints to “janitors who have no influence” .

Jesus used parables, why not us?