Name one Catholic teaching that contradicts Scripture

[Eden]

kujo313:

Because of Jesus, we can walk straight to God. We don’t have to stop at the front desk, or ask a retiree to pass it on that we want to talk to Him.

No one said we “have” to ask for the intercession of Mary or the saints. We can if we choose to. Protestants always use this “either a or b” scenario.

We can go directly to Jesus, we can go directly to the Father we can ask for Mary’s intercession, we can ask for a saint’s intercession all in the same moment of prayer.

Why is this so difficult to understand. It is not we “have to” go through Mary and that “we can’t” go directly to Jesus. Is this really such a difficult concept to wrap one’s mind around?

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

Jesus used parables, why not us?

I don’t think it’s very respectful to janitors to portray them as being cut-off from God or of lesser importance than Alfie in the scenario, for one thing. Jesus is not a social-climber.

 

[LilyM]

kujo313:

I prefer it this way:

God is the Owner. Other employees before are now retired. The Owner’s Son gives me permission to speak to the Owner any time I want (He has an open-door policy!).
When I go to the Owner, I tell Him “Your Son said I can come and talk to you.”

Ask about the retirees and the Son will tell you: “They’re enjoying their retirement. I prepared a room for them at my Father’s Retirement Home.”

Rot. Why does Paul ask us to pray for each other? Why in Revelations are those in heaven described as offering incense to God, which incense is the prayers from the living? Doesn’t sound like retirement to me.

Because of Jesus, we can walk straight to God. We don’t have to stop at the front desk, or ask a retiree to pass it on that we want to talk to Him.

Also:

Back then, nobody knew who Jesus was until He showed up and preached. Somewhere out there was some people who knew the Scriptures. Jesus revealed Himself as the Messiah. THEN they knew!
Right then and there, the people had the chance to be told about the “Blessed Virgin”.

(hears crickets)

Nothing.

Except… the one woman who told Jesus that Mary was blessed. Jesus redirected the people towards God and obedience.

EXCEPT that the Angel Gabriel himself said Mary was blessed, Elizabeth said it, Mary herself said ‘all generations will call me blessed’, Jesus said it in actions when he listened to her request in Cana in front of everyone, Jesus made her doubly blessed because she is the SUPREME example of obedience after God himself AS WELL AS having a unique relationship to him that no other human has has. Furthermore, Jesus said it in actions when with almost his last dying breath he gave her to John as his mother …

Kujo, seriously, either listen to what we tell you about Mary or get out of these forums if you don’t like it or can’t handle it. Stop spouting your same old drivel. ‘Don’t lose the focus’ indeed - Mary IS our eyeglasses that help us see Jesus more clearly than you ever could. What on earth makes you think you would ever recommend yourself to Jesus by totally ignoring (not to mention disrespecting and insulting) someone as important as the woman who gave him human life?

 

[kujo313]

ANY woman could’ve give Jesus human life.
Mary is YOUR eyeglasses. I see Jesus in the Scriptures AND in the Prophets.

“recommend” myself to Jesus? I use the Bible:

We see Him in Genesis as the Creator, as the Star that will arise out of Jacob, as the Lion of Judah, in the story of Abel’s lamb, in the ark of Noah, in what happened in mount Moriah, in the story of Joseph.

In Exodus in the Passover Lamb, in every part of the Tabernacle, in the Shekinah Glory Cloud, in the Manna, and in the Riven Rock.

In Leviticus in the offerings and as the Great High Priest, in the ritual for cleansing the leper. In the goats of the Day of Atonement and in all the annual feasts.

In Numbers in the Red Heifer, in the Serpent on the pole, in the parables of Balaam and in the cities of refuge.

In Deuteronomy He is the prophet like unto Moses.

In Joshua He is the Captain of our Salvation.

In Judges He is the Deliverer of His own.

In Ruth He is the Kinsman-redeemer.

In Samuel He is the ark, the rejected King brought at last to the throne.

In Kings and Chronicles he reigns as Solomon in Splendour and Glory.

In Ezra he is the ready scribe.

In Nehemiah he is to be seen in every city gate.

In Esther he is the one who provided the salvation.

He is to be seen in most of then Psalms. He is the Blessed Man in Psalm 1, the Son in Psalm 2, the Shepherd in Psalm 23. He is the suffering Saviour in Psalm 22 and 69. He is the King of Glory in Psalm 24. He is the perfect man in Psalm 8 and the Mighty God of Psalm 45. Almost every one of the Psalms’ has a prophetic overtone, many of them plainly messianic.

In Proverbs he is wisdom incarnate.

In Ecclesiastes, that sad book of worldly wisdom, he is the forgotten wise man who saved the city.

In the Song of Solomon he is the Shepherd who won the Shulamite’s heart and who triumphs over all the blandishments of the world.

In Isaiah He is the Lamb, led to the slaughter in chapter 53 and the one who treads the winepress. In chapter 63 He is the Messiah of a hundred hopes and longings in stanza after stanza of the book.

In Jeremiah he is the great suffer and the Lord our Righteousness.

In Lamentations he is again the one acquainted with grief.

In Ezekiel he sits on the throne.

In Daniel he is the stone cut out without hands.

In Hosea he is the forgiving, longsuffering husband and David’s far greater king.

In Joel he pours out his spirit on all flesh.

In Amos he stands on the altar, he sifts the house of Israel, and he brings in millennium blessing at last.

In Obadiah he ushers in the dreaded “Day of the Lord” and stands on Mount Zion.

In Jonah, he is prefigured in his death, burial, and resurrection.

In Micah he is seen as the one to be born at Bethlehem and as the one who will bring millennium blessing to humankind; also he is the Great Shepherd and the one who pardons iniquity.

In Nahum he is the great avenger before whom the mountains quake, but a stronghold and a refuge to his own.

In Habakkuk he is the holy one of Israel and his people’s strength and song.

In Zephaniah he brings in kingdom blessing.

In Haggai he builds again the temple of the Lord, shakes the nations, and is the chosen of the Lord.

In Zechariah He brings in the apocalypse, as the great high priest, pours out the Spirit of the Lord upon men, He is the headstone of the corner. He is the great judge. He rides into Jerusalem on a colt, is sold for the price of a slave, opens a fountain for uncleanness in Jerusalem, is the Branch and the Coming King of Kings.

(continued)

 

[kujo313]

In Malachi His coming is heralded by a forerunner, and he is the Sun of Righteousness.

In Matthew he is the King of the Jews. In Mark he is the Servant of Jehovah.

In Luke he is the Son of Man. In John he is the Son of God.

In Acts he is the Ascended Head of the Church.

In Romans he is our Righteousness.

In Corinthians he is the First fruits from the dead.

In Galatians He is the End of the Law.

In Ephesians He is all in all to his church, foundation for the building, head of the body, bridegroom of our hearts.

In Philippians He is in the form of God and the one who supplies all our needs.

In Colossians He is the Creator, Sustainer and Owner of the universe, Pre-eminent over all.

In 1 Thessalonians He comes again for his church.

In 2 Thessalonians He comes to judge the world.

In 1 Timothy He is the one mediator between God and man.

In 2 Timothy He is the judge of the living and the dead.

In Hebrews He is the great anti-type of all types: Son, Priest, Sacrifice, Heir, greater than Aaron or Melchisedec, greater than Moses or Joshua, greater than angels, Son of God and Son of Man.

In James He is the Lord of Sabbath and the one who heals.

In 1 Peter He is our Inheritance and the Shepherd of our souls.

In 2 Peter He is the one from the Excellent Glory.

In 1 John He is the Incarnate Word.

In 2 John He is the one who prospers our souls and for whose name’s sake the Gospel is preached.

In Jude He is the preserver, the only Lord God, the only wise God, our Saviour, Glorious in majesty.

In Revelation He is the King soon to come, who even today upholds all things by the Word of His Power, the one who stands astride all the factors and forces of space and time and who bends all things to His Sovereign Will.

THAT’S all I need… Jesus!

 

[Kirane]

MariaG:

In Scripture, Christ also gave the Church the right to make and change, (bind and loose) the rules. a

That was my point. That the teaching of the Church in this regard contradicts Scripture because the Church has changed the rules as they were gien in Scripture and thereby has contradicted the command of St. Paul as given in Scripture on the issue of women preaching in Church and praying in Church without headcovering.

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

THAT’S all I need… Jesus!

And God the Father and the Holy Spirit and all the people you ask to pray for you and the Bible and all the people at The Full Gospel Temple who speak in tongues and shout “Amen!” in the middle of a service…

 

[Texan_in_DC]

The question is name one Catholic teaching that contradicts scripture?

The first example is Mary,

To any protestants how does loving and honoring Mary contradict Scripture, arent we told in the bible to be the mirror image of Christ, to do what Christ would do, to be Christ like?

If Jesus Christ loved and honored his Mother Mary shouldnt we like Christ love her too, and didnt he give us his mother while on the cross?

again I am looking for a contradiction?

we are told that Mary is full of grace

 

[Alfie]

Eden:

No one said we “have” to ask for the intercession of Mary or the saints. We can if we choose to. Protestants always use this “either a or b” scenario.

We can go directly to Jesus, we can go directly to the Father we can ask for Mary’s intercession, we can ask for a saint’s intercession all in the same moment of prayer.

Why is this so difficult to understand. It is not we “have to” go through Mary and that “we can’t” go directly to Jesus. Is this really such a difficult concept to wrap one’s mind around?

The only way millions of Catholics can pray to Mary is if she is omnipresent and omni impotent and that means she has supernatural traits that can only be attributed to God. Even Satan is not omnipresent and omnipotent. Do not tell me that it is possible for God to do anything and arrange it so that she can hear millions of Catholics at one time. What is the point of praying to anyone but God unless you believe that he is inadequate? When, she does take millions of prayer requests to God does she also have the authority to choose which prayer requests she will take to him? If God has the time to listen to millions of her requests everyday he certainly has the time to listen to people directly on his own. This is just a way Catholics think they are able to manipulate God into answering their prayers the way they want them. You must feel very unsure of your relationship with God if you have to ask her to intercede on your behalf. From what I have read from Catholics, a lot of them do not even get their prayers answered or they have to wait for years before they are answered so it does not seem to make much difference…does it? The next thing you will be saying is that she has the ability to answer prays. The best way to pray to God is to praise and thank him for your salvation.

 

[kujo313]

Texan in DC:

The question is name one Catholic teaching that contradicts scripture?

The first example is Mary,

To any protestants how does loving and honoring Mary contradict Scripture, arent we told in the bible to be the mirror image of Christ, to do what Christ would do, to be Christ like?

If Jesus Christ loved and honored his Mother Mary

How did He do that?

and didnt he give us his mother while on the cross?

Jesus gave Mary to John. IF John represented all of mankind, then I challenge you to read from the beginning of Acts all the way to Jude. Nowhere in Scripture does anybody really mention Mary other than she was somewhere. Matter of fact, she’s hardly there at all.
IF Jesus felt it was important that we accept Mary as our “mother”, then He would’ve mentioned it. Instead, it’s all about Jesus.
Sure, Jesus loved Mary as a son should love his mother, but we’re talking about a relationship with God and Jesus showed us how.
Now some people admire and adore Mary more than others. That’s ok. But if that admiration and adoration towards her becomes more than of Jesus, then it’s idolatry.

Read Romans.

 

[kujo313]

Eden:

And God the Father and the Holy Spirit and all the people you ask to pray for you and the Bible and all the people at The Full Gospel Temple who speak in tongues and shout “Amen!” in the middle of a service…

Be really careful not to put words in my mouth.

I could say that you don’t need Jesus when you have Mary, Pope JPII, Pope JPI, Pope John (all numbers), Pope Paul (all numbers), Saint Francis, Saint (put a name here).
There seems to be a “patron saint” for everything. Kinda reminds me of the Greeks having a “god” for everything.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

That the teaching of the Church in this regard contradicts Scripture because the Church has changed the rules as they were gien in Scripture and thereby has contradicted the command of St. Paul as given in Scripture on the issue of women preaching in Church and praying in Church without headcovering.

Kirane, a quick question–that Scripture you speak of came from. . .where?

And the context of Paul speaking about women in church was. . . (of course one also has to remember that in the time of Paul the Christians were either in temples or private homes, NOT in a “church” as we know it). . .

And are you making sure you wear clothing that is all of one fiber, not two mixed, that the men are wearing their skull caps and prayer shawls. . .not to mention everybody wearing robes and sandals. . . and lying down to eat at table. . .

Because, hey, that is what they did then. Paul wasn’t preaching in a three piece suit and wearing Gucci loafers, was he? Men weren’t wearing pants. . .

Come to think of it, are you living in a commune and sharing everything? They were doing this and Paul mentions it quite specifically. So why aren’t we still doing this? It is right there in Scripture!

Remember, in the first 400 years of the church the “written” scripture consisted of what we call the Old Testament, and copies of various parts of the New Testament. One place might have one or two of Paul’s epistles and the gospel of Mark; another place might have had Luke but not acts, or acts but not Luke, several places might have had ORAL testimony rather than written, and considering the persecution and the way that Christians had to be on the move there was a lot of “coming and going” so a person might come from one place with some “bits”, written or oral, of Scripture, and then learned more “bits” in another, etc. etc. And some communities were Jewish converts mostly and thus had circumcision in their males, had different diets (though not kosher after Peter if they had knowledge of his letter on the subject); some communities were mostly Greek or other Gentile and thus did NOT have circumcised males, did not have the inculcated knowledge of the Old testament and thus received Old and New together en bloc rather than, like the Jews, have the Old Testament as a foundation and ADD the New. . .

I’d recommend that you find a very good Bible Concordance. I believe that Scott Hahn has done an excellent one–perhaps some other posters can recommend one–because it really helps to put things into perspective.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Do not tell me that it is possible for God to do anything and arrange it so that she can hear millions of Catholics at one time.

Goodness. I think that we NEED some prayer on this thread. Here are some of my daily prayers to share.

Hail Mary, Full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, amen.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end, amen.

Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. And lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy.

Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To Thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, o loving, o sweet Virgin Mary. Pray for us, o holy Mother of God, that we may be worthy of the promises of Christ.

We adore you O Christ and we bless you, because by Your holy cross You have redeemed the world.

O My God, I firmly believe that Thou art one God in Three divine Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I believe that Thy divine Son became Man, died for our sins, and that He will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in all the truths which the holy Catholic Church teaches, because Thou hast revealed them, who canst neither deceive nor be deceived.

O My God, relying on Thy Divine power and infinite mercy and promises, I hope to obtain pardon of my sins, the help of thy grace, and life everlasting through the merits of Jesus Christ, my lord and redeemer.

O My God, I love thee above all things with my whole heart and soul. I love my neighbor as myself for the love of Thee. I forgive all who have injured me, and ask pardon of all whom I have injured.

 

[mtr01]

Alfie:

The only way millions of Catholics can pray to Mary is if she is omnipresent and omni impotent and that means she has supernatural traits that can only be attributed to God. Even Satan is not omnipresent and omnipotent. Do not tell me that it is possible for God to do anything and arrange it so that she can hear millions of Catholics at one time. What is the point of praying to anyone but God unless you believe that he is inadequate? When, she does take millions of prayer requests to God does she also have the authority to choose which prayer requests she will take to him? If God has the time to listen to millions of her requests everyday he certainly has the time to listen to people directly on his own. This is just a way Catholics think they are able to manipulate God into answering their prayers the way they want them.

You fail to grasp the concept of eternity. Eternity exists outside of time. The constraints of time as we know them on earth do not apply to those who are enjoying eternal life in Heaven with God. Or do you think there are clocks in Heaven?

Alfie:

You must feel very unsure of your relationship with God if you have to ask her to intercede on your behalf.

Let me get this straight, you’ve never asked somone else to pray for you? If so, are you unsure of your relationship with God? When Paul asked the Colossians to pray for him (Col 4:3), was he unsure of his relationship with God?

Alfie:

From what I have read from Catholics, a lot of them do not even get their prayers answered or they have to wait for years before they are answered so it does not seem to make much difference…does it?

What is your point here? God always answers your prayers, the way you desire, and in your own time frame? Excuse me while I roll my eyes :whacky:. God does things His way, in His time…or do you profess to know the mind of God?

Romans 11:34
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been his counsellor?

Alfie:
The next thing you will be saying is that she has the ability to answer prays.She sure does, she is constantly praying for us and pointing us to our Lord Jesus.

Alfie:

The best way to pray to God is to praise and thank him for your salvation.

That’s a little presumptuous, don’t you think?

 

[kujo313]

She sure does, she is constantly praying for us and pointing us to our Lord Jesus.That’s a little presumptuous, don’t you think?

So, do you go to Jesus because Mary points to Him or because Jesus pointed to Himself?

 

[Tonks40]

kujo313:

So, do you go to Jesus because Mary points to Him or because Jesus pointed to Himself?

How 'bout BOTH??

 

[kujo313]

Tonks40:

How 'bout BOTH??

Jesus said “Follow Me” and “I am the Way”. Mary said “Do what He says.”

Pardon me if I listen to Jesus.

 

[mtr01]

kujo313:

So, do you go to Jesus because Mary points to Him or because Jesus pointed to Himself?

More evidence of the faulty either/or mindest the prevents some from enjoying the fullness of the faith.

 

[kujo313]

mtr01:

More evidence of the faulty either/or mindest the prevents some from enjoying the fullness of the faith.

Actually, I see going any other way to God but through Jesus as diluted joy. Because of Jesus, we can go directly to God ourselves. In God’s presence is FULLNESS of joy.
I’d rather do that than have it second-hand.

 

[MariaG]

Kirane:

That was my point. That the teaching of the Church in this regard contradicts Scripture because the Church has changed the rules as they were gien in Scripture and thereby has contradicted the command of St. Paul as given in Scripture on the issue of women preaching in Church and praying in Church without headcovering.

Respectfully Kirane, if God gave the Church the power to make and change the rules, and the Church then exercises that power to change those very same rules, how is that a contradiction?

Christ gave the Church the right to change the rules.

Paul tell us there is a rule for women to wear headcoverings.

Later, that rule is changed by the Church. Go back to first statement.

If Christ meant for every single mandate to never change, there would have been absolutely no reason to give the Church the right to make and change the rules.

To continue to insist that a change in rules *contradicts, *is just grasping at straws to try to “prove” that the Catholic Church is in error.

Peace,
Maria

PS. I do think I should tell you though, there are Catholics who claim that all women who do not wear headcoverings to Church are in error. Why? Because with Vatican II there were some clarifications of beliefs. Some practices were changed. Headcoverings were not specifically mentioned. The majority say that this means the rules ceases. A minority say that it stays in effect. The practice of wearing a headcovering is still in place when meeting the Pope.

So there are some in the Church who claim since the rule was not mentioned, it is still in effect.

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