Name one Catholic teaching that contradicts Scripture

[Eden]

JesusHasMyHeart:

1. we are not to bow down to statues or any graven image, this is actually breaking the first commandment. The Hebrews who truly followed God, did not make any image of Him, and their was severe penalty for anyone who did.

We do not worship statues or graven images. Having artwork that makes us mindful of Him is not “worshipping graven images”. Are you worshipping your bed when you kneel before it before bedtime? Are you worshipping the Bible when you bow your head with it in your lap? You are offended by religious artwork but you would not think twice about putting the “Jesus fish” on your car or wearing a t-shirt with an image of Jesus on it.

Posture in Prayer, Veneration and Worship

Deut. 5:9 - God’s command, “you shall not bow down to them” means “do not worship them.” But not all bowing is worship. Here God’s command is connected to false worship.

Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.

Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.

Gen. 24:52 - Abraham’s servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord.

Gen. 42:6 - Joseph’s brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.

Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.

1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.

2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.

1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.

1 Chron. 29:20 - Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.

2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.

Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael.

Judith 14:7 - Achior the Ammonite kneels before Judith venerating her and praising God.

Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God’s Holy Temple.

Dan. 2:46 - the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him.

Dan. 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.

1 Macc. 4:40,55 - Judas and the faithful fell face down to the ground to praise heaven and worship God. 2 Macc. 10:4,26; 13:12 - Maccabeus and his followers fall down prostrate praying to God.

www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[JesusHasMyHeart]

Dear Eden,

We are to pray for one another no doubt, that is scriptural.
BUT DID YOU NOTICE, FOR ONE ANOTHER NOT TO ONE ANOTHER. Yes we are to intercede on behalf of others, but NO WHERE are we told to pray to the saints or other people, ONLY to God through Christ Jesus.

 

[Eden]

More about “graven images”:

God Said To Make Them

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold *; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be” (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan “for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan” (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was “by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all,” included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, “On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim.”

Idolatry Condemned by the Church

Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue.

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said, “[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols.”

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed “by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them” (374).

“Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’” (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.

catholic.com/library/do_catholics_worship_statues.asp*

 

[Eden]

JesusHasMyHeart:

Dear Eden,

We are to pray for one another no doubt, that is scriptural.
BUT DID YOU NOTICE, FOR ONE ANOTHER NOT TO ONE ANOTHER. Yes we are to** intercede** on behalf of others, but NO WHERE are we told to pray to the saints or other people, ONLY to God through Christ Jesus.

You do not understand the “intercession of the saints” if you think we are “praying to them” as in “worshipping them”. When we “pray” to the saints we are asking for their “intercession”.

The CA library has many articles that discuss this. Here is one:

catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9007chap.asp

 

[Eden]

JesusHasMyHeart:

1. The Hail Mary actually is a salutaion to Mary from the Angel Gabriel, it was a greeting, not a prayer to her, and we are not commanded to greet her the way Gabriel did.

No one said we are “commanded” to greet Mary in the same way that the Angel Gabriel does. But why would we not want to? The angel was carrying the words of God. When we say, “Hail Mary” we are actually speaking God’s own words spoken through the angel. The Bible says “generations will call me blessed”. Why?

Luke 1:28 - “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

Luke 1:42 - “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.

Have you ever read what the early Christians wrote about her? It was an invention of Calvin and Zwingli in the 16th century that removed the veneration of Mary:

www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

It is a great tragedy that so many Protestants have been deceived by the “great deceiver” into rejected her intercession.

 

[Eden]

JesusHasMyHeart:

No where in the bible does it tell us to ask Mary to pray for us sinners, I have not seen it, if you have please give reference.

So, we can ask those here on earth who are still working on their salvation “in fear and trembling” but those who are fully alive in Christ- including the Blessed Mother, the most blessed among women have worthless prayers? Protestants say Catholics pray “to dead people”. Is that what your theology teaches? That people who are fully alive in Christ are “dead”?!

Specific Instructions to Mediate and Examples of Subordinate Mediation
New Testament

Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.

Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.

Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints – and He obviously would not have been worshiping them in so doing – then so can we, who need their help infinitely more than Jesus, and without engaging in idolatry. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.

Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.

Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus’ passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.

Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.

John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary’s intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.

John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.

John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.

Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.

2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other’s prayers.

2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.

Much more here: www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[Eden]

JesusHasMyHeart:

Matthew 12:46-50
To the contrary: The disciples told Jesus," Your mother and brothers desire to speak with you, and Jesus said, Who is my mother ? and who are my brethren ? Then He stretched forth His hand towards the disciples and said, "behold my mother and my brethren, For whosoever does the will of My Father in heaven, the same is my brother and sister and mother.

This really is just the beginning of unscriptural doctrines.
Matthew 15:3 and 9 Jesus said," But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men"

We should also note that the apostolic traditions Paul is commanding us to follow in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 are not the same as the Pharisaical traditions that Jesus condemned in Matthew 15:3 and Mark 7:9. The traditions Jesus condemned dealt with the Old Testament ceremonial rituals and other acts that contravened the New Testament Gospel. So there are certain human traditions that, if contrary to the Gospel, we must reject, and oral apostolic tradition, as Paul commands, which we must accept.

www.scripturecatholic.com/my_top_ten.html

 

[Church_Militant]

Prayer_Warrior:

I can’t speak for CM but I can see plainly that the issue at hand is understanding scripture in context. If you look at 1 Cor 7:10-17 along with 2 cor 6:14 you get a different picture than just looking at one or the other. The Catholic teaching on marriage does not contadict the scripture when it is interpreted properly and in context.

Thanks Warrior, that’s EXACTLY what I meant!

If one leaves out other passages that deal with the same topic, then one fails to get a realistic and truly scriptural doctrine.

The CCC holds to a more scriptural approach than Sandusky has offered.
Pax tecum,

 

[Church_Militant]

sandusky:

Explain to me your understanding in the context, and paint for me the different picture one gets from looking at more than just the one or the other, including in all you say, why you think the RCC is not in violation of the scripture in allowing a believer to be bound in marriage to an unbeliever.

There’s nothing to explain Sandusky… the two passages together provide the truth, you have one passage that would appear to be in conflict with the other but since that cannot be then the fact is that the Catholic teaching which encompases BOTH passages is the Biblically correct statement.

There’s nothing to “paint for you”. The CCC is correct as it stands, and we could even go so far as to say that your position, based as it is on a single passage of scripture out of context with other topically relevent passages is the one that needs justifying since by your definition there is conflict between these two plain passages of the Word.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Church_Militant]

sandusky:

Why would you, a Catholic, think that those two verses are damaging to SS?

Simple…what does it say?

SS is an unbiblical teaching anyway and has led to no end of errors in the last 500 years. A prize winning example of a teaching of men that people are blown to and fro by every wind of doctrine by. The myriad divergent doctrines (concerning baptism just for example) and the idea that some aspects of Christianity are “peripheral” to salvation are direct results of the error of SS, and the sooner it falls, the better for the Body of Christ.

Does it say that everything that pertains to the life and teachings of Christ is recorded in the NT? No it does not.

Does it imply that there are other things that were taught orally to the disciples by the apostles…in other words the definitive statements as to what the NT means.? Yes it does, though post reformation types choose to ignore that.

Who is likely to know better? You or some other modern teacher, or the men who were close friends and disciples of the Apostle John and who were bishops of the early church as well as dying martyrs deaths for these beliefs?

I know who I’ll listen to to make sure that I am properly understanding the Word of God.
Pax tecum,

 

[Church_Militant]

JesusHasMyHeart:

Dear Eden,

We are to pray for one another no doubt, that is scriptural.
BUT DID YOU NOTICE, FOR ONE ANOTHER NOT TO ONE ANOTHER. Yes we are to intercede on behalf of others, but NO WHERE are we told to pray to the saints or other people, ONLY to God through Christ Jesus.

The very fact that you would phrase a statement like this means that you have never understood the teaching. It’s easy when you are in that position for someone to come along and wave a Bible under your nose and lead you to think that they are telling you the truth. (I guess you are fortunate that it wasn’t a Jehovah’s Witness that proselytized you!)

Praying To The Saints

The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.

Can They Hear Us?

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

More reading
Intercession of the Saints (ECF)

Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

…snip…

As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.

Hermas

“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

You have been badly deceived into thinking that this is wrong.
Pax tecum,

 

[sandusky]

Church Militant:

There’s nothing to explain Sandusky… the two passages together provide the truth, you have one passage that would appear to be in conflict with the other but since that cannot be then the fact is that the Catholic teaching which encompases BOTH passages is the Biblically correct statement.

There’s nothing to “paint for you”. The CCC is correct as it stands, and we could even go so far as to say that your position, based as it is on a single passage of scripture out of context with other topically relevent passages is the one that needs justifying since by your definition there is conflict between these two plain passages of the Word.
Pax vobiscum,

Michael, IMHO, you are, as usual, long on assertion and short on explanation, and that is because there is no explanation that you can offer.

As per the thread request, I have offered one teaching that the RCC embraces that clearly contradicts scripture.

And what do you say about that? You assert that I am taking the passage out of context. No explanation as to how I am doing that, only the assertion that I am doing that.

You go on to say: “your [Sandusky’s] position, based as it is on a single passage of scripture out of context with other topically relevent passages is the one that needs justifying since by your definition there is conflict between these two plain passages of the Word.”

I only offered one passage, not two, and you are the one claiming that “there is conflict between these two plain passages,” not me; I have said nothing about a conflict between the passage, YOU ALONE HAVE DONE THAT.

If you are able, explain the conflict. :ehh:

 

[sandusky]

With respect to Jn 21:25, you say:
Church Militant:

Does it imply that there are other things that were taught orally to the disciples by the apostles…in other words the definitive statements as to what the NT means.? Yes it does, though post reformation types choose to ignore that.

Here is the verse in question:

John 21:25
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus DID, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

DID is the word which must be understood in the passage, it is the Greek word poieō which means: to make, to do.

Under the inspiration of the H.S. John says that many of the other things that Jesus DID were not recorded. The passage has NOTHING TO DO with what Jesus SAID, but with what Jesus DID.

The Greek word poieō is used some 584 times in the N.T., and not once is it used in reference to what someone SAID, but always in reference to what someone DID.

Your own Catechism states this:

III.
Christ Jesus—"Mediator and Fullness of All Revelation"
God has said everything in his Word

65
“In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.” Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect, and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2:

In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word – and he has no more to say … because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.

God has said everything in his Word. How the RCC can make that unequivocal statement and then go on to bring in tradition as well is beyond me; my interest is not why, but how it can say, and do that straight-faced.

The point of John 21:25 is that God has said in Scripture everything that He wanted to say, and everything that one needs to hear to be redeemed/saved/justified, but He did not record all of the Christ’s deeds! (cf 2 Tim 3:16-17).

IMHO, I think that sticks in your craw.

(continued below)

 

[sandusky]

(continued from post #352)
Church Militant:

Who is likely to know better? You or some other modern teacher, or the men who were close friends and disciples of the Apostle John and who were bishops of the early church as well as dying martyrs deaths for these beliefs?

I know who I’ll listen to to make sure that I am properly understanding the Word of God.

Will you?

What does Irenaeus say?

As I have already observed, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it…For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same.

Sounds like he supports “tradition,” but he continues on, and defines that “tradition”

These have all declared to us that there is one God, Creator of heaven and earth, announced by the law and the prophets; and one Christ, the Son of God. If any one does not agree to these truths, he despises the companions of the Lord; nay more, he despises Christ Himself the Lord; yea, he despises the Father also, and stands self-condemned, resisting and opposing his own salvation, as is the case with all heretics.

Irenaeus’ truths, which he calls “tradition” are derived directly from scriptures!

He continues on, further defining his “tradition.”

To which course many nations of those barbarians who believe in Christ do assent, having salvation written in their hearts by the Spirit, without paper and ink, and, carefully preserving the ancient tradition, believing in one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, and all things therein, by means of Christ Jesus, the Son of God;…

Above quotes are from Against Heresies.

Tradition with the ECFs were directly from Scripture. That is not so since Trent.

What about Augustine:

What more shall I teach you than what we read in the apostle? For holy Scripture fixes the rule for our doctrine, lest we dare to be wiser than we ought….Therefore, I should not teach you anything else except to expound to you the words of the teacher.

The above is from De bono viduitatis see *NPNF, *Series I, III:442. Note especially the use of the phrase, “Scriptura nostraedoctrinae regulam figit.” For sola scriptura is the doctrine that teaches that Scripture is the sole infallible and supreme “regula fidei,” the “rule of faith,” for the Church.

And in De unitate ecclesiae, 3, cited by Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Part I (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1971), p. 157.

Let us not hear: This I say, this you say; but, thus says the Lord. Surely it is the books of the Lord on whose authority we both agree and which we both believe. There let us seek the church, there let us discuss our case.

And:

Let those things be removed from our midst which we quote against each other not from divine canonical books but from elsewhere. Someone may perhaps ask: Why do you want to remove these things from the midst? Because I do not want the holy church proved by human documents but by divine oracles.

Ibid.

And in response to the oft-asked question by so many on this forum, that question being, “where did Jesus instruct any of the apostles to write down anything, I’ll let Augustine answer:

From *In Epistolam Johannis tractus, *2. See *NPNF *Series I, VII:469.
One of my favorites:

You ought to notice particularly and store in your memory that God wanted to lay a firm foundation in the Scriptures against treacherous errors, a foundation against which no one dares to speak who would in any way be considered a Christian. For when He offered Himself to them to touch, this did not suffice Him unless He also confirmed the heart of the believers from the Scriptures, for He [God] foresaw that the time would come when we would not have anything to touch but would have something to read.

Notice that God confirms the believer’s heart from the scriptures, and not from the scriptures and tradition. God knew, according to Augustine, that we would have something to read, ie., the H.S. ordered the writing of Scripture.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

sandusky:

Michael, IMHO, you are, as usual, long on assertion and short on explanation, and that is because there is no explanation that you can offer.

As per the thread request, I have offered one teaching that the RCC embraces that clearly contradicts scripture.

And what do you say about that? You assert that I am taking the passage out of context. No explanation as to how I am doing that, only the assertion that I am doing that.

You go on to say: “your [Sandusky’s] position, based as it is on a single passage of scripture out of context with other topically relevent passages is the one that needs justifying since by your definition there is conflict between these two plain passages of the Word.”

I only offered one passage, not two, and you are the one claiming that “there is conflict between these two plain passages,” not me; I have said nothing about a conflict between the passage, YOU ALONE HAVE DONE THAT.

If you are able, explain the conflict. :ehh:

CM did not say there was a conflict. He said if you read just one passage there might appear to be a conflict. Particularly with your personal interpretation of 2 Cor 6:14, where you believe God is explicitly commanding us not to intermarry. First of all, it is not a commandment of God. And, when read in light of the other passage, it is clear that there is an assumption that believers would be married to non-believers because there are instructions there that would apply to the situation. So, the CCC follows the whole truth here-permitting ‘intermarriage’ but advising caution.

Paul was not God’s stenographer. So “do not be bound together with non-believers” is advice from Paul to the Corinthians. Although Paul was divinely inspired, all of his letters were personal letters to the fledgling Church responding to the current situation in the Church. This is another part of “context” that anyone reading scripture should keep in mind.

God made His Comandments very clear (Ex 20) and they were summarized by Jesus (Mt 22:37). Do not intermarry is not among them.

 

[M_Oliver]

MariaG:

The Church teaches that there is a communion of Saints, told to pray for one another, we are one body of Christ. So does Scripture.

Where are the contradictions?

God Bless,
Maria

Catholics pray TO Saints don’t they? Whether alive or dead.
I know some that do pray TO dead people(Mary)because they are supposedly Saints…

Very unscriptural.

 

[M_Oliver]

Sandusky…

You are on the mark.

 

[Eden]

M_Oliver:

Catholics pray TO Saints don’t they? Whether alive or dead.
I know some that do pray TO dead people(Mary)because they are supposedly Saints…

Very unscriptural.

Wow. What a theology you have! Those who are purified and fully alive in Christ are dead! What kind of religion would teach that those souls who are alive in Christ are dead?

 

[adrift]

M_Oliver:

Catholics pray TO Saints don’t they? Whether alive or dead.
I know some that do pray TO dead people(Mary)because they are supposedly Saints…

Very unscriptural.

Luke 20

37
That the dead will rise even Moses made known in the passage about the bush, when he called ‘Lord’ the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;
38
and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

 

[M_Oliver]

Church Militant:

The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years.

Well no wonder! Scripture says no dead man is in Heaven.

“Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?”
(Proverbs 30:4, KJV)

“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” (John 3:13, KJV)
Church Militant:

Can They Hear Us?

No! They are dead. Show me ONE Scripture that says dead men go to Heaven, just one.
Church Militant:

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

Yea and I’m one of them. It says the prayer “OF” the saints not the prayer “TO” the saints.
Church Militant:

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

A totally unscriptural lie! No man is in Heaven, not even King David.

“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.” (Acts 2:29, ESV)

Do you think that when he spoke of the man that was after God’s own heart he might have taken the liberty to inform us he was in Heaven doing something useful? I WOULD HOPE SO! But he didn’t. He told us the truth, even King David is dead and in the grave.

We don’t die and go to Heaven any more than we die and go to hell. They are both lies and fantasy’s of ancient Egypt that are being furthered by mainstream Christianity.