Name one Catholic teaching that contradicts Scripture

M_Oliver · Apr 2, 2006

Eden:

Wow. What a theology you have! Those who are purified and fully alive in Christ are dead! What kind of religion would teach that those souls who are alive in Christ are dead?

The Bible. God’s truth. Ever hear of it?

Eden · Apr 2, 2006

M_Oliver:

The Bible. God’s truth. Ever hear of it?

Firstly, take a deep breath and relax.

Thank you.

Now, what exactly do you believe happens to a soul after death?

sandusky · Apr 2, 2006

Prayer_Warrior:

CM did not say there was a conflict. He said if you read just one passage there might appear to be a conflict. Particularly with your personal interpretation of 2 Cor 6:14, where you believe God is explicitly commanding us not to intermarry. First of all, it is not a commandment of God.

P_W, a “commandment” is a “command.”

The opening words, “Do not be" are in the “imperative” mood, both in the Greek, and in the English. The “mood” indicates the speaker’s attitude toward the kind of reality behind his or her statement. An imperative then, is a command, it is not an option.

Shut the door is in the “imperative mood.” The speaker’s attitude toward the kind of reality behind that statement is a command: Do it! Shut the door.

Another example of a command:

Do not be bound together with unbelievers is in the “imperative mood.” Paul’s attitude toward the kind of reality behind his statement is a command: Do not do it! Do not be bound with an unbeliever.

Prayer_Warrior:

And, when read in light of the other passage, it is clear that there is an assumption that believers would be married to non-believers because there are instructions there that would apply to the situation. So, the CCC follows the whole truth here-permitting ‘intermarriage’ but advising caution.

Based upon what Paul commands in 2 Cor 6:14, “not to be bound with unbelievers,” the best assumption concerning those who were married to unbelievers in 1 Cor 7, is that they were both unbelievers when they were first married, with one, or the other becoming a believer sometime after the marriage.

Therein is found the greatest harmony of the two passages.

Paul clearly prohibits the “binding” of a believer to an unbeliever in 2 Cor 6; that cannot denied.

Prayer_Warrior:

Paul was not God’s stenographer. So “do not be bound together with non-believers” is advice from Paul to the Corinthians.

That is not only a wrong conclusion, but a dangerous one as well.

I humbly give you advice (optional) to review English grammar, so that you come to know the difference between some “advice,” and a “command.”

Greek uses four “moods.” None of them is an “advice mood.” For a statement to be advice, the writer must specifically state that it is advice, and make it known that what is said is optional; Your assertion that what Paul says in 2 Cor 6:14 is optional, is unsupported by the grammar.

Prayer_Warrior:

God made His Comandments very clear (Ex 20) and they were summarized by Jesus (Mt 22:37). Do not intermarry is not among them.

Again, a “commandment” is a “command.”

Here are a few commands from the N.T.:

Code:

Abstain from all appearances of evil.1 Thess. 5:22

Code:

Abstain from all fleshly lusts.1 Pet. 2:11

Code:
```
Avoid troublemakers.Rom. 16:17
```

Code:

Avoid profane and vain babblings.1 Tim. 6:20

Code:
```
Avoid false science.1 Tim. 6:20
```
Code:
```
Avoid foolish questions.Titus 3:9
```
Code:
```
Avoid arguments about the law.Titus 3:9
```
Code:
```
Be reconciled to a brother.Matt. 5:24
```
Code:
```
Be wise as serpents.Matt. 10:16
```
Code:
```
Be harmless as doves.Matt. 10:16
```
Code:
```
Be thankful.Col. 3:15
```

Code:

Be patient toward all men.1 Thess. 5:14; 2 Tim. 2:24

Code:

Be ready to give an answer of the hope that is in you.1 Pet. 3:15

Code:
```
Be transformed.Rom. 12:2
```
Code:
```
Be patient in tribulation.Rom. 12:12
```

Code:

Be children in [avoiding] malice.1 Cor. 14:20

Code:
```
Be men in understanding.1 Cor. 14:20
```
Code:
```
Be steadfast.1 Cor. 15:58
```
Code:
```
Be unmovable.1 Cor. 15:58
```

Code:

Be always abounding in God’s work.1 Cor. 15:58

Code:
```
Be of one mind.Rom. 12:16
```

Code:

Be separate from the unclean.2 Cor. 6:17

Code:
```
Be angry and sin not.Eph. 4:26
```
Code:
```
Be filled with the Spirit.Eph. 5:18
```
Code:
```
Be anxious for nothing.Phil. 4:6
```

Code:

Be an example to other believers.1 Tim. 4:12

Code:
```
Be gentle to all men.2 Tim. 2:24
```
Code:
```
Be ready to teach.2 Tim. 2:24
```
Code:
```
Be content with what you have.Heb. 13:5
```
Code:
```
Be vigilant.1 Pet. 5:8
```

Code:

Do not be like the hypocrites in prayer.Matt. 6:5

Code:
```
Do not be afraid of men.Luke 12:4
```

Code:

Do not be conformed to this world.Rom. 12:2

Code:

Do not be children in understanding.1 Cor. 14:20

Code:

Do not be deceived by evil companions.1 Cor. 15:33

Code:

Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers.2 Cor. 6:14-18

Code:
```
Do not be drunk with wine.Eph. 5:18
```

Code:

Do not be weary in well-doing.2 Thess. 3:13

Code:
```
Do not be slothful.Heb. 6:12
```

Code:

Do not be influenced by strange doctrines.Heb. 13:9

Code:

Beware of false prophets.Matt. 7:15; Phil. 3:2

Code:
```
Beware of [evil] men.Matt. 10:17
```
Code:
```
Beware of covetousness.Luke 12:15
```
Code:
```
Beware of backsliding.2 Pet. 3:17
```

Code:

Do not bid false teachers Godspeed. 2 John 10-11

There are many more commands than these in the N.T.

M_Oliver · Apr 2, 2006

Eden:

Firstly, take a deep breath and relax.

Thank you.

Now, what exactly do you believe happens to a soul after death?

I believe what God tells all of us. The soul is nothing more than a body combined with God’s breath of life, Genesis 2:7. The same goes for creatures, see Genesis 1:20, 1:21, 1:24, 2:19, 9:10-16. The Hebrew for creature is the same used for soul.

Granted, man is special because he is made in the image of God and He is conditioning man to inherit the Kingom of God when Christ returns but we certainly do die just like every other creature in the flesh.

Show me Scripture that says man does not die at least once. Some actually suffer a second death.

Because we are special though, we are promised a resurrection from the dead, Matthew 17:9, Matthew 22:31, John 5:20-22 just to name a few.

Dieing is a fact of life. There is not one single scripture that says we are an immortal soul. This concept comes from ancient Egypt and has been adopted by mainstream Christianity. It is not a doctrine of Christ or the Apostles. It is not a doctrine of a True Christian.

God can kill the soul make no mistake. But He does have a plan to save ALL men, noone burns in eternal hell…

1 Corinthians 15:22-26

Night time.

randel · Apr 2, 2006

The title of this thred “Name one Catholic teaching that contradicts Scripture” is misleading for following reasons:

No book of ancient times has come down to us exactly as it left the hands of its author–all have been in some way altered. This fact is even realised by the Catholic learned men.

Not all deposits of Catholic faith depends upon scriptures (Old and New Testament), as per Catholic Catechism.

Therefore the question of “naming one Catholic teaching that contradicts Scripture”, is meaningless and shouldn’t even arise, in the first place, because no book of the New Testament is free from alteration and not all precepts of Catholiism are products of whatever Scriptures Catholics have.

Moreover, if everything that Catholic church teaches, is from her Scriptures, then all people really need to know is what is in the Scriptures and not neccessarily Catholic church because the source of Catholic church is Scriptures, as claimed.

But if Church insists that people must need her assistance in order to be called a Christian, then the question is what Church think about all other non-Catholics intellectuals and great minds? Do they not have brains in their head and only Catholic fathers/Popes have?

Are there no non-Catholic Bible experts or just Catholic church has monopoly over them?

If Jesus, as per Matthew Chap.23, did not force his people to stick to his personality (Church) and did allow his first generation of true Christ-followers to seek/listen even to the Jewish scribes and the Pharisees (who were the doctors of law knowledgewise but not in practice and were hypocrites and blind and like serpants), then on what premise Catholic church can force people to follow her interpretation which doesn’t even have proper roots in her own Scriptures, because not all deposits of Catholicism emerge from her Scriptures?

Eden · Apr 2, 2006

M_Oliver:

I believe what God tells all of us. The soul is nothing more than a body combined with God’s breath of life, Genesis 2:7. The same goes for creatures, see Genesis 1:20, 1:21, 1:24, 2:19, 9:10-16. The Hebrew for creature is the same used for soul.

Granted, man is special because he is made in the image of God and He is conditioning man to inherit the Kingom of God when Christ returns but we certainly do die just like every other creature in the flesh.

Show me Scripture that says man does not die at least once. Some actually suffer a second death.

Because we are special though, we are promised a resurrection from the dead, Matthew 17:9, Matthew 22:31, John 5:20-22 just to name a few.

Dieing is a fact of life. There is not one single scripture that says we are an immortal soul. This concept comes from ancient Egypt and has been adopted by mainstream Christianity. It is not a doctrine of Christ or the Apostles. It is not a doctrine of a True Christian.

God can kill the soul make no mistake. But He does have a plan to save ALL men, noone burns in eternal hell…

1 Corinthians 15:22-26

Night time.

So, you are a Jehovah’s Witness? Then your religion is not “God’s” but “Charles Taze Russell’s”.

**Do Humans Possess an Immortal Soul?
**
The Bible mentions the soul approximately 200 times, and it can be seen to have very different meanings according to the context of each passage.

Perhaps the strongest contradiction of the WTS doctrine is seen in Christ’s descent to Hades. In 1 Peter 3:19, the apostle tells his audience how Jesus “preached to the spirits in prison.” If the dead were aware of nothing, then his preaching would have been futile. In the OT, the prophet Isaiah speaks of the condition of the dead, "Sheol underneath has become agitated at you in order to meet you on coming in . . . all of them speak up and say. . . . Those seeing you will gaze even at you, saying . . . " (Is. 14:9-11). These verses indicate clearly that the dead are conscious, and the NT tells the same story. To be absent from the body is not to be unconscious, but rather it enables one to be home with the Lord, according to Paul (2 Cor. 5:8, Phil. 1:23). The body is just a tent, or tabernacle that does not last (2 Cor. 5:1-4; 2 Pet. 1:13), while man cannot kill the soul (Matt. 10:28). In fact, the souls live past the death of the bodies, since John "saw . . . the souls of those slaughtered . . . and they cried with a loud voice, saying . . . and they were told . . . " (Rev. 6:9-11). Because the soul does not die with the flesh, those in heaven are able to offer our prayers to God (Rev. 5:8), and live in happiness (Rev. 14:13).

www.catholic.com/library/Stumpers_for_Jehovah_Witnesse.asp

Eden · Apr 2, 2006

randel:

The title of this thred “Name one Catholic teaching that contradicts Scripture” is misleading for following reasons:

You are missing the purpose of this thread. Why “scripture only”? Because Protestants are “Sola Scriptura”.

But if Church insists that people must need her assistance in order to be called a Christian, then the question is what Church think about all other non-Catholics intellectuals and great minds? Do they not have brains in their head and only Catholic fathers/Popes have?

Have intellectual ability and being in error are possible. Some say Hitler was a genius - an evil one at that - but still a genius. So, intellectual ability is not the question. Truth is the question. If a non-Catholic “intellectual” teaches something that contradicts the “deposit of faith” they are in error regardless of I.Q.

Are there no non-Catholic Bible experts or just Catholic church has monopoly over them?

“Experts”? A high degree of knowledge does not preclude one from formulating errors. Are you asserting that “bible experts” have the charism of infallibility? You seem to equate a higher intellectual ability with being correct.

If Jesus, as per Matthew Chap.23, did not force his people to stick to his personality (Church) and did allow his first generation of true Christ-followers to seek/listen even to the Jewish scribes and the Pharisees (who were the doctors of law knowledgewise but not in practice and were hypocrites and blind and like serpants), then on what premise Catholic church can force people to follow her interpretation which doesn’t even have proper roots in her own Scriptures, because not all deposits of Catholicism emerge from her Scriptures?

The “deposit of faith” is entirely from Christ and the apostles. The New Testament was not even set until the late 3rd, early 4th century. The early Church relied heavily on oral Tradition and the truth therein was protected by the Holy Spirit. Do you realize how long the interval between Christ’s death and Resurrection and the Canon being set was? Roughly the same time interval between the arrival of the Mayflower in America and the present day. The early Christians had no defined New Testament for almost 400 years!

The authority of the Church comes through “apostolic succession”. All of our bishops have direct succession from the apostles and thus have teaching authority. Christ gave the authority for His Word to be spoken through His Church.

Apostolic succession is entirely biblical. Read about it here:

www.scripturecatholic.com

adrift · Apr 2, 2006

M_Oliver:

No! They are dead. Show me ONE Scripture that says dead men go to Heaven, just one.

40
The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation?
41
And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.”
42
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43
He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
44

2": 2": And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

“3”: And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

“4”: And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
.

Luke 20
Quote:
37
That the dead will rise even Moses made known in the passage about the bush, when he called ‘Lord’ the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;
38
and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."
Reply With Quote

That’s three

Church_Militant · Apr 3, 2006

sandusky:

Michael, IMHO, you are, as usual, long on assertion and short on explanation, and that is because there is no explanation that you can offer.

As per the thread request, I have offered one

teaching that the RCC embraces that clearly contradicts scripture.

And what do you say about that? You assert that I am taking the passage out of context. No explanation as to how I am doing that, only the assertion that I am doing that.

You go on to say: “your [Sandusky’s] position, based as it is on a single passage of scripture out of context with other topically relevent passages is the one that needs justifying since by your definition there is conflict between these two plain passages of the Word.”

I only offered one passage, not two, and you are the one claiming that “there is conflict between these two plain passages,” not me; I have said nothing about a conflict between the passage, YOU ALONE HAVE DONE THAT.

If you are able, explain the conflict. :ehh:There is NO conflict… the passage of the CCC is clear explanation enough. This is a dodge on your part. You make a statement and when a Catholic answer is offered you then change the passage that you wish to use to in order to avoid the first problem and confuse the duscussion while making it appear that no valid answer was given.

The only possible conflict is on your end. Catholics resolve the issue in the full context of the NT which you did not and even refuse to accept. The fact that both passages deal with the same topic you make no mention of but seek to hold Catholics to a an out of context scriptural standard that does not exist.

Hear me clearly on this. The statements from the CCC are plainly based on the context of the topic from the New Testament, and therefore need no explanation. Your assertion is based on a passage taken out of the topical context of the NT and therefore shows a doctrinal error on the part of whoever teaches that.

I’m not going to waste time honoring your dodge with unneeded "explanantions when every other poster on this thread can see what you are doing.

You assert there is a conflict between the Catholic teaching and the passage that you cited. I show that your passage is out of topical context and therefore there is no conflict between the CCC and the Word of God. Since the CCC is in line with the NT context.

It’s actually pretty simple. Your assertion is dead wrong.

Church_Militant · Apr 3, 2006

M_Oliver:

Catholics pray TO Saints don’t they? Whether alive or dead.
I know some that do pray TO dead people(Mary)because they are supposedly Saints…

Very unscriptural.

Really? Better look over Hebrews 12:1 then because all those dead people are said to be witnessing our race for the Kingdom of God. And doing so by an act of God’s own power according to the author of Hebrews.

Ever seen a race where the “witnesses” (fans) just sat there and didn’t intercede (cheer) for the racers? I don’t think there’s ever been a case of this is all of recorded history.

How do you figure that our brothers and sisters in the body of Christ who have finished their races and now witness ours (Dang so I guess the dead really are aware of what goes on here on earth. At least it seems that those in heaven are…) will not pray for us who are still running?

It’s not Catholic teaching that is unscriptural.
Pax vobiscum,

JesusHasMyHeart · Apr 3, 2006

Eden:

So, we can ask those here on earth who are still working on their salvation “in fear and trembling” but those who are fully alive in Christ- including the Blessed Mother, the most blessed among women have worthless prayers? Protestants say Catholics pray “to dead people”. Is that what your theology teaches? That people who are fully alive in Christ are “dead”?!

Christian perpsective:
This kind of reasoning is strictly from man and no where to be found in the scriptures. And Yes we can ask those here on earth to pray for us.
??? Who are working on their salvation in fear and trembling ??? Are you saying that we are incomplete in Christ and not worthy to pray for others, and only those that have gone on before us have special access to the throne, so we pray to them ? That is VERY unscriptural. Are you saying that only those in heaven are the only that are fully alive in Christ and therefore worthy to be prayed to ? Wow, that is way off base.

Eden said,"Is that what your theology teaches? That those who are fully alive in Christ are dead ?

Answer: No I think that is what you are claiming. You are saying that the only ones who are fully alive in Christ are the ones who are in heaven ( or your words, dead).

Answer: when if you would know the scriptures you would understand that those who are in Christ Jesus are fully alive and granted the priviledge and authority to intercede on behalf of others. In fact we are commanded to pray for eachother. But nowhere are we commanded to pray to Mary or any saint, but only to God through Jesus Christ. Not only that, but we never see an example of this in the early church in the book of Acts. You see, you are teaching as doctrine, the commandments of man.
You see as Born Again Christians, we look at the blessedness and wonderful priviledge that was given to Mary, we do not spite her as Catholics seem to think, we regard her as highly favored of the Lord, but we would never pray to her, I personally think she cringes everytime someone prays to her. In the Magnificat she said," my soul does magnify the Lord" she was alive for the purpose of magnifying the Lord not herself.
I think because Catholics have elevated Mary to a level almost equal with Jesus, that many protestants have reacted to this excess . Protestants do not believe that she was sinnless, nor that she ascended to heaven without tasting death, nor is she our coredemptrix.She also went on with Joseph and married him and had other children because Jesus had a brother. But she was a very special and blessed woman, and we remember all that she did and went through to accept that call.

Eden said,
Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.

Answer:
Yes this is true, but this still doesn’t tell us to pray to Mary or others, just to God . So I don’t see how this is a good argument.

Eden said,
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.

Answer: Yes but Jesus was talking with them, and did not instruct us to do so. This passage was not condoning communicating with the dead, but was about a heavenly visitation, and i don’t know how you rationalize praying to Mary or saints from this context.

Eden said,
Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.

Answer: people may have believed that, and they were the ones who crucified Him, but we know from scripture that He was saying,“My God My God, why hast thou forsaken me” or Eli Eli Lama sabathani. He was not calling on Elijah but on God the Father. The Jews were waiting for the coming of Elijah which was in John the Baptist in the fullfillment of the prophesy of Elijah. As i was looking up a reference to this i came across the time when mary was at the foot of the cross of Jesus in John 19:25-27 Jesus no longer called mary His mother but told James, “behold your mother”

Time does not permit me to carry on with the rest of this, i will have to continue Monday April 3 Lord Willing.

JesusHasMyHeart · Apr 3, 2006

Wow, I don’t see my past posts, i must have found a contradiction and moderators erased them.

Church_Militant · Apr 3, 2006

M_Oliver:

Well no wonder! Scripture says no dead man is in Heaven.

"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell

?"
(Proverbs 30:4, KJV)

“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” (John 3:13, KJV)Really? The OT in the time of Solomon, which is when Proverbs and Ecclesiastes was written, had not begun to teach that there was an afterlife at all. The Jews had no concept of it til much later. You’ll have missed the parts where that begins to develope unless that KJV of your really is a 1611 edition and has all 73 books that the 1611 does. Resurrection of the dead was still being debated at the time of Christ, and this is clear even in Acts of the Apostles.

No! They are dead. Show me ONE Scripture that says dead men go to Heaven, just one.

Too late… already been done.

A totally unscriptural lie! No man is in Heaven, not even King David.

You need to mind flingin’ that Lie word around newbie…

Furthermore…you’re wrong. The good thief on the cross being the first example.

“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.” (Acts 2:29, ESV)

Tomb yes, bones yes…soul no.

We don’t die and go to Heaven any more than we die and go to hell. They are both lies and fantasy’s of ancient Egypt that are being furthered by mainstream Christianity.

:whacky: Right, yeah, if you say so…

(His profile says that his religious affiliation is “God’s”…just one more that won’t be honest and say where he gets his teachings from. Even Sandusky’ll have issues with this guy.)

Church_Militant · Apr 3, 2006

JesusHasMyHeart:

Wow, I don’t see my past posts, i must have found a contradiction and moderators erased them.

Dude…all your posts are there.

You’ll not become a “martyr” at our hands!

Mickey · Apr 3, 2006

sandusky:

John 21:25
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus DID, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

DID is the word which must be understood in the passage, it is the Greek word poieō which means: to make, to do.

I beg to differ. It is obvious that there were many other things that Jesus did*.* You have decided to emphasize one word. Here is where the emphasis is placed in regard to Sacred Tradition:

John 21:25
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

Mickey · Apr 3, 2006

sandusky:

Tradition with the ECFs were directly from Scripture. That is not so since Trent.

Papias

Whenever anyone came my way, who had been a follower of my seniors, I would ask for the accounts of our seniors: What did Andrew or Peter say? Or Phillip or Thomas or James or John or Matthew, or any of the Lord’s disciples? I also asked: What did Aristion and John the Presbyter, disciples of the Lord say. For, as I see it, it is not so much from books as from the living and permanent voice that I must draw profit (*The Sayings of the Lord *[between A.D. 115 and 140] as recorded by Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 3:39 [A.D. 325]).

Fuerza · Apr 3, 2006

sandusky:

P_W, a “commandment” is a “command.”

The opening words, “Do not be" are in the “imperative” mood, both in the Greek, and in the English. The “mood” indicates the speaker’s attitude toward the kind of reality behind his or her statement. An imperative then, is a command, it is not an option.

Shut the door is in the “imperative mood.” The speaker’s attitude toward the kind of reality behind that statement is a command: Do it! Shut the door.

Another example of a command:

Do not be bound together with unbelievers is in the “imperative mood.” Paul’s attitude toward the kind of reality behind his statement is a command: Do not do it! Do not be bound with an unbeliever.

Based upon what Paul commands in 2 Cor 6:14, “not to be bound with unbelievers,” the best assumption concerning those who were married to unbelievers in 1 Cor 7, is that they were both unbelievers when they were first married, with one, or the other becoming a believer sometime after the marriage.

Therein is found the greatest harmony of the two passages.

Paul clearly prohibits the “binding” of a believer to an unbeliever in 2 Cor 6; that cannot denied.

That is not only a wrong conclusion, but a dangerous one as well.

I humbly give you advice (optional) to review English grammar, so that you come to know the difference between some “advice,” and a “command.”

Greek uses four “moods.” None of them is an “advice mood.” For a statement to be advice, the writer must specifically state that it is advice, and make it known that what is said is optional; Your assertion that what Paul says in 2 Cor 6:14 is optional, is unsupported by the grammar.

Sandusky,
The imperative mood/mode is not unique to Greek. Many languages, including the romance languages (two of which I grew up speaking), use the imperative. While it is true to say that the purpose of the imperative is to give commands, that is not its exclusive function. For example, in Spanish, if someone were to mention that they had run out of milk, they could be advised to go to the store in a number of ways.

Te consejo que vayas a la tienda (Subjunctive) -I advice you to go to the store

or simply,

Vete a la tienda (Imperative)- Go to the store.

Note that the use of the imperative here is a suggestion rather than a command, but it still must be used in that particular construction.

While the example that I provided is obviously not from Greek, it does demonstrate that a grammatical construction can be used outside its normal function without braking any rules. This likely works for Greek as well, since, being an Indo-European language, it is in actuality a cose relative of Latin and the Romance languages, as well as about 90% of the languages of Europe and Southern Asia.

sandusky · Apr 3, 2006

Fuerza:

Sandusky,
The imperative mood/mode is not unique to Greek. Many languages, including the romance languages (two of which I grew up speaking), use the imperative. While it is true to say that the purpose of the imperative is to give commands, that is not its exclusive function. For example, in Spanish, if someone were to mention that they had run out of milk, they could be advised to go to the store in a number of ways.

Te consejo que vayas a la tienda (Subjunctive) -I advice you to go to the store

or simply,

Vete a la tienda (Imperative)- Go to the store.

Note that the use of the imperative here is a suggestion rather than a command, but it still must be used in that particular construction.

While the example that I provided is obviously not from Greek, it does demonstrate that a grammatical construction can be used outside its normal function without braking any rules. This likely works for Greek as well, since, being an Indo-European language, it is in actuality a cose relative of Latin and the Romance languages, as well as about 90% of the languages of Europe and Southern Asia.

I agree with what you say about the subjunctive, but not about the imperative.

The attitude of the speaker toward the reality of his or her imperative is that it is not to be avoided, or evaded.

Here are the 4 moods of Greek using 2 Cor 6:14 to illustrate each:

Indicative mood: I am not bound with unbelievers
Subjunctive mood: I asked that you not be bound with unbelievers
Optative mood: I wish you would not be bound with unbelievers
Imperative mood: Do not be bound with unbelievers.

Paul is not saying he is not bound to unbelievers, nor is he asking, or wishing that the believer not be bound with unbelievers, but, the clear attitude behind his statement is that believers are not to be bound with unbelievers.

And most importantly, remember that it is the H.S. who is bearing Paul along in what He (the H.S.) wants communicated.

Fiat · Apr 3, 2006

Sandusky:

Even if you believe 1 Cor. 7 speaks only of a spouse who becomes a believer after already having married an unbeliever, you somehow have to come up with an explanation as to why you think the 1 Cor. 7 spouse is now exempt from the 2 Cor 6:14 “command.”

Fiat

Prayer_Warrior · Apr 3, 2006

Again, a “commandment” is a “command.”

Here are a few commands from the N.T.:

Code:

Abstain from all appearances of evil.1 Thess. 5:22

Code:

Abstain from all fleshly lusts.1 Pet. 2:11

Code:
```
Avoid troublemakers.Rom. 16:17
```

Code:

Avoid profane and vain babblings.1 Tim. 6:20

Code:
```
Avoid false science.1 Tim. 6:20
```
Code:
```
Avoid foolish questions.Titus 3:9
```
Code:
```
Avoid arguments about the law.Titus 3:9
```
Code:
```
Be reconciled to a brother.Matt. 5:24
```
Code:
```
Be wise as serpents.Matt. 10:16
```
Code:
```
Be harmless as doves.Matt. 10:16
```
Code:
```
Be thankful.Col. 3:15
```

Code:

Be patient toward all men.1 Thess. 5:14; 2 Tim. 2:24

Code:

Be ready to give an answer of the hope that is in you.1 Pet. 3:15

Code:
```
Be transformed.Rom. 12:2
```
Code:
```
Be patient in tribulation.Rom. 12:12
```

Code:

Be children in [avoiding] malice.1 Cor. 14:20

Code:
```
Be men in understanding.1 Cor. 14:20
```
Code:
```
Be steadfast.1 Cor. 15:58
```
Code:
```
Be unmovable.1 Cor. 15:58
```

Code:

Be always abounding in God’s work.1 Cor. 15:58

Code:
```
Be of one mind.Rom. 12:16
```

Code:

Be separate from the unclean.2 Cor. 6:17

Code:
```
Be angry and sin not.Eph. 4:26
```
Code:
```
Be filled with the Spirit.Eph. 5:18
```
Code:
```
Be anxious for nothing.Phil. 4:6
```

Code:

Be an example to other believers.1 Tim. 4:12

Code:
```
Be gentle to all men.2 Tim. 2:24
```
Code:
```
Be ready to teach.2 Tim. 2:24
```
Code:
```
Be content with what you have.Heb. 13:5
```
Code:
```
Be vigilant.1 Pet. 5:8
```

Code:

Do not be like the hypocrites in prayer.Matt. 6:5

Code:
```
Do not be afraid of men.Luke 12:4
```

Code:

Do not be conformed to this world.Rom. 12:2

Code:

Do not be children in understanding.1 Cor. 14:20

Code:

Do not be deceived by evil companions.1 Cor. 15:33

Code:

Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers.2 Cor. 6:14-18

Code:
```
Do not be drunk with wine.Eph. 5:18
```

Code:

Do not be weary in well-doing.2 Thess. 3:13

Code:
```
Do not be slothful.Heb. 6:12
```

Code:

Do not be influenced by strange doctrines.Heb. 13:9

Code:

Beware of false prophets.Matt. 7:15; Phil. 3:2

Code:
```
Beware of [evil] men.Matt. 10:17
```
Code:
```
Beware of covetousness.Luke 12:15
```
Code:
```
Beware of backsliding.2 Pet. 3:17
```

Code:

Do not bid false teachers Godspeed. 2 John 10-11

There are many more commands than these in the N.T.

Hmmm…noticibly absent is 2Thess 2:15: So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. Does that count as a commandment? Are you holding fast to the traditions by mouth as well as letter? :ehh:

A commandment is an edict–a decree or proclamation issued by one in authority. To me the One in authority is God-- His edicts or commandments I already posted. You assert that command is the same as a commandment. But to “command” is to DIRECT with authority. So, my use of the word “advice” may have been off the mark slightly; the commands by St. Paul are directing us to live our lives as God wills but I would not catagorize that as “commandments” of God.

I stand by my view that Scripture is divinely inspired. I do not believe Paul was taking dictation from God. This is an Islamic view. This can clearly be seen from 1 Cor 1:16: (I did baptize also the household of Steph’anas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.) Did God forget who had been baptized? Of course not.

Remember the historical aspect of Scripture as well as their content. The Epistles of Paul were his letters responding to specific situations in the Church. He was providing the Church with direction. The Catholic Church does not contradict the directions given in any of Paul’s Epistles. How could it? The New Testament is a collection of works from the original Church of Christ–the Catholic Church. This being the case, it is not the job of the Catholic Church to “interpret” Scripture, but rather, to explain it .

Name one Catholic teaching that contradicts Scripture

M_Oliver

Guest

Eden

Guest

sandusky

Guest

M_Oliver

Guest

randel

Guest

Eden

Guest

Eden

Guest

adrift

Guest

Church_Militant

Guest

Church_Militant

Guest

JesusHasMyHeart

Guest

JesusHasMyHeart

Guest

Church_Militant

Guest

Church_Militant

Guest

Mickey

Guest

Mickey

Guest

Fuerza

Guest

sandusky

Guest

Fiat

Guest

Prayer_Warrior

Guest