Nasty God of the Hebrew Bible

[josesiem]

I’m a faith-struggling Catholic. This is the first time I’m asking anyone these questions, because quite frankly I don’t think there’s a good answer, but here it goes:

Given the fact that there are so many competing truth claims in the world (Hinduism, Buddhisms, Islam, scientific materialism, etc.) which all more or less to some degree of success answer the big questions about our world and its meaning…

Why do we believe in the George Bush-like character of the Old Testament? Imagine the leader of a country like this god – it would look something like North Korea. Obey unquestionably. If you don’t, you’ll suffer every kind of torment. (Read Amos and Jeremiah) What kind of deity screws up creation so bad he has to destroy everyone (except Noah) and start over again? Is this really the vastly superior intelligence that’s responsible for the mind-boggling complexity of the universe?!

Why is there not ONE piece of supernatural knowledge presented in not just the OT but the NT as well. I’d expect this amazing intelligence to give us something beyond the rudimentary knowledge of 1000BC, but in fact, we cannot find anything supernaturally (or even naturally) intelligent in the OT. Compare this with the Buddhist scriptures which portray an incredible intelligence and understanding of human psychology and the nature of reality. In fact, many of the insights of Buddhism are being confirmed by neuroscience and cosmology today – from an Indian monk 2500 years ago. This is impressive and it’s not allegedly from the creator of the universe. One might expect the creator of the universe to offer something even more substantial than an uneducated monk 2500 years ago, but in fact we have nothing – or do we? That’s my question.

And keep in mind, it’s in the context of looking at all of the various truth claims around the world. Imagine a random clueless someone comes to Bible, reads it, and then has to make a decision: is this deity in the Bible really the supernatural creator of the universe?! He has to also decide this based on reading all of the other worldviews out there.

I’d think anybody not blinded my faith would answer that no, this barbaric, angry deity portrayed in the OT is not the creator of the universe, but I’m open to being convinced otherwise.

Thank you.

 

[davidv]

The only way to label God this way is to ignor all the times was patient and merciful.

Why did he use 10 plagues and not just one on the Eqyptians?
Why did he agree with Lot to spare Sodom if only 5 (if my memory serves) righteous are found?
Why did he agree with Moses to spare the Israelites after the golden calf incident?

 

[ssejllenrad]

The only way to label God this way is to ignor all the times was patient and merciful.

Why did he use 10 plagues and not just one on the Eqyptians?
Why did he agree with Lot to spare Sodom if only 5 (if my memory serves) righteous are found?
Why did he agree with Moses to spare the Israelites after the golden calf incident?

Not to mention giving the Protoevangelium despite the disobedience of Adam and Eve…

 

[royal_archer]

Now that I am a father it seems to make a lot more sense. My kids don’t necesarily like everything I do and don’t understand all of my rules. So if they are about to put their finger in an electrical socket I will pull them back abruptly and may slap their wrist. They don’t necesarily understand why and may think I am being mean. That is because they do not have the capability to comprehend and do not have the same knowledge.

I have learned to trust God and know that even though I do not know or understand everything about the universe I trust him.

In nature things are hard. Planets colide, sharks eat seals, suns go super nova, every action has an equal and oposite reaction. While science and other pursuits may define patterns and explanations for some of the mechanics of the universe, they do not answer why. I don’t know why this is or what the greater plan is but we just have to accept it because that is reality. Turning on God and worshiping some diety will not change that.

 

[josesiem]

Now that I am a father it seems to make a lot more sense. My kids don’t necesarily like everything I do and don’t understand all of my rules. So if they are about to put their finger in an electrical socket I will pull them back abruptly and may slap their wrist. They don’t necesarily understand why and may think I am being mean. That is because they do not have the capability to comprehend and do not have the same knowledge.

I have learned to trust God and know that even though I do not know or understand everything about the universe I trust him.

In nature things are hard. Planets colide, sharks eat seals, suns go super nova, every action has an equal and oposite reaction. While science and other pursuits may define patterns and explanations for some of the mechanics of the universe, they do not answer why. I don’t know why this is or what the greater plan is but we just have to accept it because that is reality. Turning on God and worshiping some diety will not change that.

You being a father I suppose you won’t kill your children if they disobey. Yet we accept this from the alleged creator of the universe.

As for the times when God was merciful – Gee, thanks, should be be thankful because God is sometimes merciful?!

Again, this (my inquiry) is coming from an agnostic perspective. You guys already have faith and will accept anything at this point. What do you say to someone to convince them that this dictator-like figure from the OT is the creator of the universe?

Shouldn’t we expect some supernatural knowledge or wisdom in this massive tome of 2000 pages?

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

I feel the opposite. The Bible to me seems supernatural in the hidden wisdom within it. Wisdom is elusive. Read what Jimmy Akin says in this short bit comparing Protestantisms systematic look at the Bibe as manual and the more holistic approach of the Church. It seems a common trap to underestimate the Bible.

catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9802chap.asp

What deeper is there than an explanation of original sin as man in the image of God, but choosing from his freewill to turn away. The story of the fall wrestles profoundly with the question of evil in a way not grasped by man until Doestoevsky wrote the Brothers Karamazov.

Is it nasty to create a book of wisdom to warn you of the danger of turning away from God? That’s what in one sense the OT does. It is warning you of the horrific problem of men again and again turning away and the terrible consequences not just for them but for those around us.

I blogged about it a bit. (warning: just my speculations)
Isaiah 15-19 An affirmation of Christianity

When I grapple with trying to understand the Bible, I fault my lack of discipline and knowledge, not the source material. It’s worth getting some commentaries.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

You being a father I suppose you won’t kill your children if they disobey. Yet we accept this from the alleged creator of the universe.

As for the times when God was merciful – Gee, thanks, should be be thankful because God is sometimes merciful?!

Again, this (my inquiry) is coming from an agnostic perspective. You guys already have faith and will accept anything at this point. What do you say to someone to convince them that this dictator-like figure from the OT is the creator of the universe?

Shouldn’t we expect some supernatural knowledge or wisdom in this massive tome of 2000 pages?

There’s no need to be rude. Catholics are not cultists or muslims. We believe God is in some sense knowable by the light of reason and that reason can help us in our relationship with God to understand and love Him better.

You have a rock solid belief yourself that you just KNOW what the OT means and you understand it, but tthere are thousands of protestant divisions each using essentially the same book and coming up with thousands of different theologies. Seems to me this book is difficult to understand correctly.

Yet scripture has been a pillar of the Church for 2,000 years, a consistent pillar of the Church, an organization that has remained homogenous in its teaching and preaching, gaining depth but not contradicting itself all this time on faith and morals. That’s 10 times longer than the Constitution has held the US together. Longer than any other organization I can think of that has maintained its identity as an active centralized movement.

Might there be more to the OT than just a literalistic reading?

 

[royal_archer]

You being a father I suppose you won’t kill your children if they disobey. Yet we accept this from the alleged creator of the universe.

1. I am not God.
2. Death of the body is not death of the individual.
3. My faith is shaky and I have had doubts.

As you age you will see the pattern emerging. When Eve ate forbiden fruit and Adam did likewise they gained free will. Humans can choose to love or hate God. Humans can choose to do things that will result in their demise.

It apears that you want God to be something that satisfies you and your desires. It seems like the arguement you are putting forth is similar to that put forth by some atheist if God isn’t what I want him to be then he does not exist. This is from the assumption that perfection is based on the opinion of you or some other human or collection of humans. Look around you in nature and you will see that it is a harsh world with immense beauty and everything in perfect balance from the subatomic level to the universal level. Perfect does not mean always meeting your personal expectations.

 

[Layp3rs0n]

God, the Omnipotent Creator has made the universe and us out of love. He gave us life and gave us ONE rule. ONE. We couldn’t even get that right. And when He gave us that rule it was merely so we would have a choice.
Next, He, in love for us allows us to suffer so that we can learn trust Him(because apparently we didn’t the first time,and even then He already knows those who trust Him in this life will be SO rewarded in the next that no matter how much we suffered on Earth that suffering would not mean didly-squat to us when we finally received said reward). And we keep on refusing and refusing. Sometimes we would start to trust and it would all be dashed to bits by us turning from Him again and again. All the while His Heart is being wrent in two by our refusing to trust in His Love. Because all He wants is to give us the happiness that we CANNOT by natural order attain from any other source other than Him. With a broken heart, because of their own stubborness, God’s hand is forced to wipe out those He loves but who still do love Him back in order to preserve what goodness is left(Noah). Finally, mankind has been purifed, right? All that is left is Noah and his family and they’re all good. But wouldn’t you know it? A few generations later people decide to turn their backs on God again! God in mercy and love, to save humanity picks a group of people and blesses them, trying to start small so humanity can slowly gain trust in Him again by there example as trust. Guess what? God gets them out of slavery gives them food, water and all His love and they give the credit to a flippin’ statue?! Can’t mankind who was created to be loved and to love their Creator get anything right? So God has to slap the wrist of His own people. Merely trying discipline them. This cycle continues over and over until God says “They just aren’t getting it. This calls for something drastic otherwise they will never be with me and will never be happy! Hey, I will go to them Myself and show My Love in Person as one of THEM! I will even make myself their Food and Drink and nourish their souls with Myself! I will fill them with My very Spirit and Life. I will share with them my Nature.” Well, we showed Him how we felt about Him. We beat Him, spat on Him, we accused Him of OUR sins gave Him a crown of thorns and then nailed Him to a tree and left him die. But that’s ok. Really. Because that’s how He wanted to show His Love. And now He waits for us to ask fogiveness for nailing Him to the cross and ask, JUST ASK to be with Him so He can make us happy beyond our wildest imagination. The old testment is filled with God trying to straighten humanity out for its own good. The new testment is filled with God taking the punishment on Himself so as weak as we are we would have a chance. The spiritual revelation and lessons in the wisdom of love.

       "If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It would be better to enter Heaven blind then enter hell and be able to see."

If you knew what heaven was you would be willing to give up ANYTHING to attain it. And if you knew what hell was you would be willing to endure anything in this life and give up anything to avoid it.

May the Peace of God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, in union with th Holy Spirit be with you.

 

[josesiem]

As I suspected, just wasted our time here. There is no answer to my questions.

You’re not “cultists?” What do you call the doctrine of transubstantiation?! What about the Marian doctrines? Even in my most bewildered time of being a Catholic I had a hard time swallowing those.

Imagine you heard of a religion on Mars where they eat their God in the form of a cracker every week?! What would you think? These are sane people?

Ironically, the reason I lost my faith is… guess what? I did a Bible study by Scott Hahn! Yep, I opened the Bible (bad idea!) and read it. Bad idea.

When I read contemporary apologetics books, I start having faith. But when I open the Bible, no way. Especially if you compare it to the Bhagavad Gita or holy scriptures of the world.

Did you ever read the Koran? It’s amazing similar to the OT. In fact, Jesus appears as the anamoly in the history of that terrible, desert-dwelling deity. In the OT you have a deity who demands your allegiance, otherwise he’ll destroy you. Then Jesus comes along and it gets a little lovey-dovey. Then the Koran arrives: now this sounds familiar. Don’t believe me I’d suggest a comparative reading of the OT and the Koran.

 

[royal_archer]

WhenI have doubts I just pray and ask God to point me in the right direction. I don’t ask God to make me a better Catholic or anything else. I open myself up to what God wants. This is the direction I was pointed.

Instead of making decisions based on what a couple of lay people say, pray and ask God to point you where he wants you to go.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

As I suspected, just wasted our time here. There is no answer to my questions.

I think these are the questions you are referring to. Here are my answers:

Why do we believe in the George Bush-like character of the Old Testament?

As others have indicated, yours is not the only characterization of the OT God. I agree he’s not touchy-feely, but I don’t think you’ve really established your position.

Anyway, maybe the more direct answer is that taken as a whole, the character of God throughout the Bible lines up pretty well with what my life experience tells me I should expect. Specifically:

God is the supreme authority. He has rules. You are very ill-advised to break his rules.
But, God is also supreme love. He loves us all very much. Even though we don’t follow his rules, he wants to give us a way into heaven.

Those two things are the attributes that I would subjectively expect God to possess. Those are the attributes that the God of the Bible is defined to have.

What kind of deity screws up creation so bad he has to destroy everyone (except Noah) and start over again?

Leaving aside questions of historicity for the time being, the story doesn’t say that God screwed up creation. Creation screwed up, by rebelling against God.
Also, he didn’t destroy anyone in the flood. He ended their earthly existence. As someone else has pointed out, that’s not the same thing. We have no information about what happened to them after death.

Why is there not ONE piece of supernatural knowledge presented in not just the OT but the NT as well.

One? Creation ex nihilo. No other religion teaches it. Most religions posit an eternal universe or a cyclic one, both of which are on the outs with modern science. Genesis got it right!

You’re not “cultists?” What do you call the doctrine of transubstantiation?! What about the Marian doctrines? Even in my most bewildered time of being a Catholic I had a hard time swallowing those.

I’m not sure what the definition of cultist is. Certainly transubstantiation is strange and mysterious. But, I don’t see why we should expect God’s actions to be intuitive and obvious to us.

I have no clue what your point is about the Marian doctrines. I don’t even know which doctrines you’re referring to, so I guess I’ll leave that aside.

Imagine you heard of a religion on Mars where they eat their God in the form of a cracker every week?! What would you think? These are sane people?

Well, I would want to know why they believe the cracker is their God. I would examine the historical and literary basis for their faith. If it measured up as well as ours does, I would conclude that this is the form of Eucharist that God gave the Martians.

Maybe I should ask you – what exactly is your problem with the Eucharist? It makes sense to me. Humans have basically two (name removed by moderator)uts - air and food. If God wants to create a ceremony by which humans become one with God, he will probably use one of those.

Ironically, the reason I lost my faith is… guess what? I did a Bible study by Scott Hahn! Yep, I opened the Bible (bad idea!) and read it. Bad idea.

Can you elaborate on this? Maybe we should talk specifics instead of generalities. I’ve read a good deal of the Bible, and don’t find that it hurts my faith.

When I read contemporary apologetics books, I start having faith. But when I open the Bible, no way. Especially if you compare it to the Bhagavad Gita or holy scriptures of the world.

What do you find in these other religions that you don’t find in Catholicism? I found Buddhism somewhat appealing, back in the day, but never felt any sort of draw to the other world religions.

Did you ever read the Koran? It’s amazing similar to the OT. In fact, Jesus appears as the anamoly in the history of that terrible, desert-dwelling deity. In the OT you have a deity who demands your allegiance, otherwise he’ll destroy you. Then Jesus comes along and it gets a little lovey-dovey. Then the Koran arrives: now this sounds familiar. Don’t believe me I’d suggest a comparative reading of the OT and the Koran.

I’ve never agreed with the OT/NT dichotomy that people talk about. I look at the psalms and I see Christ’s love. I look at (some of) Jesus’s preaching and I see OT wrath. It’s all a coherent whole.

God bless!

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

WhenI have doubts I just pray and ask God to point me in the right direction. I don’t ask God to make me a better Catholic or anything else. I open myself up to what God wants. This is the direction I was pointed.

Instead of making decisions based on what a couple of lay people say, pray and ask God to point you where he wants you to go.

I think this is excellent advice!

 

[RobbyS]

You being a father I suppose you won’t kill your children if they disobey. Yet we accept this from the alleged creator of the universe.

As for the times when God was merciful – Gee, thanks, should be be thankful because God is sometimes merciful?!

Again, this (my inquiry) is coming from an agnostic perspective. You guys already have faith and will accept anything at this point. What do you say to someone to convince them that this dictator-like figure from the OT is the creator of the universe?

Shouldn’t we expect some supernatural knowledge or wisdom in this massive tome of 2000 pages?

Could be you are looking for the wrong thing. The Bible is about the relationship between men and God, and how they learn over time to move toward a proper relationship. It is a story of a Father and his prodigal children. If you want a simple look at the Catholic perspective here, I suggest you read “In the Beginning…” a short book that includes Lenten sermons by the pope based on his meditations on the Creation stories in Genesis. These were delivered more than 25 years ago and the book just republished. About 100 pages, an excellent translation from the German. A major point he makes is that Genesis, at least in its final form, was written during the Baylonian captivity, and that it presents a radical view of divinity, a total rejection of the established mythology of the Middle Eastern peoples, and of their polytheism. “Moses” serves as the Jewish counterpart of “Socrates,” who also starts with a rejection of the gods. But whereas Socrates offers philosophy, Moses tells a story.

 

[RobbyS]

As I suspected, just wasted our time here. There is no answer to my questions.

You’re not “cultists?” What do you call the doctrine of transubstantiation?! What about the Marian doctrines? Even in my most bewildered time of being a Catholic I had a hard time swallowing those.

Imagine you heard of a religion on Mars where they eat their God in the form of a cracker every week?! What would you think? These are sane people?

Ironically, the reason I lost my faith is… guess what? I did a Bible study by Scott Hahn! Yep, I opened the Bible (bad idea!) and read it. Bad idea.

When I read contemporary apologetics books, I start having faith. But when I open the Bible, no way. Especially if you compare it to the Bhagavad Gita or holy scriptures of the world.

Did you ever read the Koran? It’s amazing similar to the OT. In fact, Jesus appears as the anamoly in the history of that terrible, desert-dwelling deity. In the OT you have a deity who demands your allegiance, otherwise he’ll destroy you. Then Jesus comes along and it gets a little lovey-dovey. Then the Koran arrives: now this sounds familiar. Don’t believe me I’d suggest a comparative reading of the OT and the Koran.

In the Old Testament, you have a God who makes himself know to Abraham, and is accepted by Abraham as his god. Abraham leaves the house and the gods of his family and sets out into the wilderness to the place that God has promised him. The Muslims pretty much start in the same place, except that their story diverges from that of the Jews where Ishmael is sent into wilderness. Interesting that you would note the similarity between the God of the Hebrews and the God of the Koran, because in the Koran, the true God is this desert God. Mohammed’s career more or less parallels that of Moses, you may notice, but the nation led by Moses will have a very different history from that led by Mohammed. As to the fericiousness of Yahweh, please bear in mind that He was fighting to hold them together, to keep them from reverting to the gods of Egypt and of the peoples who surrounded him. These were not gods you can find attractive, and if you think that Yahweh treated men badly, consider that to the gods of the land, men were never more than slaves, to whom they owed nothing. Just as Mohammed had to become a general as well as a prophet to overthrow the other gods of the Kaaba, , so did Moses. Islam is, by its own testimony, a faith that begins and ends with the God of Abraham. It is shaped by a culture that in amy respects did not change over the nearly two thousand years between Abraham and Mohammed.

But as we read the history of the Jews after their arrival in the promised land, and see the formation of the monarchy, and its dissolution, and the Exiles and the Return, we see a faith transformed by experience, by a continuing revelation by God of himself and what man must do. For a Christian, this history is concluded by God coming into the World as a man. A new Creation now begins, but it amounts to a beginning like the planting of a seed that will in time grow into a tree , but not without enduring storm and drouth, but with the aid of a gardener.

 

[promethius95945]

As I suspected, just wasted our time here. There is no answer to my questions.

You’re not “cultists?” What do you call the doctrine of transubstantiation?! What about the Marian doctrines? Even in my most bewildered time of being a Catholic I had a hard time swallowing those.

Imagine you heard of a religion on Mars where they eat their God in the form of a cracker every week?! What would you think? These are sane people?

Ironically, the reason I lost my faith is… guess what? I did a Bible study by Scott Hahn! Yep, I opened the Bible (bad idea!) and read it. Bad idea.

And so the truth comes out. you lied. you are not a “faith-struggling catholic” as you said, but rather not a catholic at all. you came to a forum… where answers are typically slow in coming around because discussions here are measured in days, not minutes. And then as soon as people begin to open discussion on your questions, you blast all that aside with angry vitriole. Perhaps there is more divine wisdom in the Bible than you realize, because if you HAD realized it you would behave like a Christian and not drive yourself away from receiving your own answers. All you’ve done here, by acting in such an unchristian manner, is to drive people away from wanting to talk to you or discuss your questions.

When I read contemporary apologetics books, I start having faith. But when I open the Bible, no way. Especially if you compare it to the Bhagavad Gita or holy scriptures of the world.

Despite the fact that this entire post is very troubling about your disposition towards christian behavior, I will answer this in such a way as to discuss your second question in your original post. Perhaps you’ll be able to understand what I’m getting at here.

you need to take a psychology class. one of the fundamental reasons that foreign religions form such a craze these days is a distinct combination of globalization combined with human psyche. Essentially, people naturally find things which are different and new fascinating. For example, you talk of the supernatural intelligence inherent in buddism… hogwash, actually. The reason you see “supernatural wisdom” in other religions is because their positions of their faith do NOT fill our everyday culture, and so they seem to be beyond normal comprehension. I assure you that if you had grown up in an eastern culture, you would not be wowed.

Looking, however, at the way that Christianity has formed society will show that it is the social behavior produced by Christianity which has been responsible for the greatest societies in the modern world. The Bible isn’t “supernatural mystery”… it’s a practical handbook for behavior of a society which can thrive. At the time of it’s production it was as revolutionary as any of these other books you THINK are impressive, and by following the tenets of Christian (Catholic) faith, those societies became great indeed. I can give specific examples of how the subtleties behind the socio-behavioral suggestions made in the bible can be applied scientifically to witness how the faith actually benefitted man, rather than just “wowed” us with mysticism.

Did you ever read the Koran? It’s amazing similar to the OT. In fact, Jesus appears as the anamoly in the history of that terrible, desert-dwelling deity. In the OT you have a deity who demands your allegiance, otherwise he’ll destroy you. Then Jesus comes along and it gets a little lovey-dovey. Then the Koran arrives: now this sounds familiar. Don’t believe me I’d suggest a comparative reading of the OT and the Koran.

Never read it. It’s not particularly suprising it’s similar seeing as until the time if Ishmael that Judaism and Islam were the SAME religion.

 

[Spirithound]

In the OT you have a deity who demands your allegiance, otherwise he’ll destroy you. Then Jesus comes along and it gets a little lovey-dovey.

Didn’t Jesus get a whip of cords and expel quite a few people from the Temple?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I’m a faith-struggling Catholic. This is the first time I’m asking anyone these questions, because quite frankly I don’t think there’s a good answer, but here it goes:

Given the fact that there are so many competing truth claims in the world (Hinduism, Buddhisms, Islam, scientific materialism, etc.) which all more or less to some degree of success answer the big questions about our world and its meaning…

Why do we believe in the George Bush-like character of the Old Testament? Imagine the leader of a country like this god – it would look something like North Korea. Obey unquestionably. If you don’t, you’ll suffer every kind of torment. (Read Amos and Jeremiah) What kind of deity screws up creation so bad he has to destroy everyone (except Noah) and start over again? Is this really the vastly superior intelligence that’s responsible for the mind-boggling complexity of the universe?!

**Just **Be grateful that the God of the Bible is not the amoral & erratic sort of god all too common outside the Bible, but is ever-faithful.​

**The God of Jeremiah is a God Who suffers because He has no alternative but to judge His own people severely. But because agnostics are usually grossly ignorant of the book & the God they criticise, they miss that sort of detail. **

Why is there not ONE piece of supernatural knowledge presented in not just the OT but the NT as well. I’d expect this amazing intelligence to give us something beyond the rudimentary knowledge of 1000BC, but in fact, we cannot find anything supernaturally (or even naturally) intelligent in the OT. Compare this with the Buddhist scriptures which portray an incredible intelligence and understanding of human psychology and the nature of reality. In fact, many of the insights of Buddhism are being confirmed by neuroscience and cosmology today – from an Indian monk 2500 years ago. This is impressive and it’s not allegedly from the creator of the universe. One might expect the creator of the universe to offer something even more substantial than an uneducated monk 2500 years ago, but in fact we have nothing – or do we? That’s my question.

We do. **The God of the Bible is the only God Who wastes time dying for His enemies. ****The God of the Bible may fail to tell us what we today may find impressive - the Bible is not about ephemeral things like scientific knowledge, which may be superceded; but about God & His Will for us, ****which are never out of date, in this life or the next. Most of all, it is about God, about His Revelation of His Will to His creature man, about sin, about what sin deserves, & about the infinite pains God has freely & lovingly taken to remedy the evil of sin man has freely committed. It is therefore about Jesus Christ, Who is that Remedy. **​

And keep in mind, it’s in the context of looking at all of the various truth claims around the world. Imagine a random clueless someone comes to Bible, reads it, and then has to make a decision: is this deity in the Bible really the supernatural creator of the universe?! He has to also decide this based on reading all of the other worldviews out there.

**The Bible does not yield its meaning to those who do not read it with the help that God alone can give. If our attitude to it is arrogant, or dismissive, then we make ourselves incapable of profiting from it. It is the reader, not the Book, that is under judgement; & we are judged by it - not the other way round. **​

I’d think anybody not blinded my faith would answer that no, this barbaric, angry deity portrayed in the OT is not the creator of the universe, but I’m open to being convinced otherwise.

Thank you.

The God of Israel is rightly angered by human sin, & is in no way barbaric, & has created all things by His Word. There is nothing worse than sin. If God were barbaric, He would not continually warn, & plead with, & have mercy on, & be gracious to, & forget the sins of, His wicked, deceitful, backsliding, ungrateful, treacherous, lying, & idolatrous people. Least of all would He have taken their sins on Himself.What you’re saying is a libel against God - it is hugely unfair ​

**God judges sin, because man is sinful, & wicked, & evil-hearted - blame man, not God. Yet all people ever do is blame God for the evils their own folly & wickedness have caused. The God of the Bible is Holy, & is Righteous. Man is unholy, & unrighteous. Each acts according to his nature. Which means that the wickedness of the latter is hateful to the former. Ignore sin - as your post does - & the God revealed in the Bible will seem to be angry about nothing at all. Understand that sin is an enormous evil - & many things in this sacred Book should, God Willing, become a lot clearer. **

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

As I suspected, just wasted our time here. There is no answer to my questions.

What sort of answer would you count as an answer ?​

You’re not “cultists?” What do you call the doctrine of transubstantiation?! What about the Marian doctrines? Even in my most bewildered time of being a Catholic I had a hard time swallowing those.

Imagine you heard of a religion on Mars where they eat their God in the form of a cracker every week?! What would you think? These are sane people?

Are you sure that you know what the CC teaches about transubstantiation ? Just an idea.​

Ironically, the reason I lost my faith is… guess what? I did a Bible study by Scott Hahn! Yep, I opened the Bible (bad idea!) and read it. Bad idea.

When I read contemporary apologetics books, I start having faith. But when I open the Bible, no way. Especially if you compare it to the Bhagavad Gita or holy scriptures of the world.

Did you ever read the Koran? It’s amazing similar to the OT. In fact, Jesus appears as the anamoly in the history of that terrible, desert-dwelling deity. In the OT you have a deity who demands your allegiance, otherwise he’ll destroy you.

**That is a caricature of the facts **​

Then Jesus comes along and it gets a little lovey-dovey. Then the Koran arrives: now this sounds familiar. Don’t believe me I’d suggest a comparative reading of the OT and the Koran.

**There are about 50 references to God’s “wrath” & “judgement” - the gospels speak of both, a good deal. Jesus Christ is most merciful & compassionate; that does not mean He is a “wimp”. **​

 

[SeekingCatholic]

One can special plead out of any difficulty, but it is far from a convincing argument to one who doesn’t already accept the paradigm. I’m going to play devil’s advocate here because it really annoys me when Christian apologists engage in obvious special pleading and sneering dismissals of their opponent’s objections and difficulties. This creates more atheists, not more Christians.

Just Be grateful that the God of the Bible is not the amoral & erratic sort of god all too common outside the Bible, but is ever-faithful.

But to the OP the God of the OT is precisely the amoral & erratic sort of god common outside the Bible, commanding genocides, flooding worlds, and so forth. Just saying He is not is begging the question. One must apply the same standards to judging the god of the OT as judging other gods outside the Bible, otherwise this is special pleading in spades. If another god did the same thing in another book, would you not say he was petty, vindictive, and wrathful? If another god planted the tree of knowledge of good and evil, would you not accuse him of entrapment? If not, why not? If the answer is that God can do whatever He wants, the same justification could be used for other gods.

The God of Jeremiah is a God Who suffers because He has no alternative but to judge His own people severely. But because agnostics are usually grossly ignorant of the book & the God they criticise, they miss that sort of detail.

Of course He has an alternative. Many alternatives, in fact. He could not have created the people He is allegedly in need of judging. He could have offered them different graces which would have made them good and not in need of judgment. He could have offered Adam a “mulligan”, so to speak, or said so long to the human race and created a new kind of rational being. Many more things He could have done. God is even under no specific obligation to punish all wrongs. If any other god allegedly “had no alternative” to judge his people when he actually had the power to bring about things such that no such judgment would actually be necessary, you would say, why are you lamenting a situation that you could have prevented?

And actually, some agnostics do spend a significant amount of time studying the book they criticize. Many of them can run circles around many Christian apologists in terms of their knowledge of Scripture.

We do. The God of the Bible is the only God Who wastes time dying for His enemies. The God of the Bible may fail to tell us what we today may find impressive - the Bible is not about ephemeral things like scientific knowledge, which may be superceded; but about God & His Will for us, which are never out of date, in this life or the next.

We’re talking about the OT, aren’t we? The point of the OP is that the God of the NT appears radically different from the God of the OT.

Most of all, it is about God, about His Revelation of His Will to His creature man, about sin, about what sin deserves, & about the infinite pains God has freely & lovingly taken to remedy the evil of sin man has freely committed. It is therefore about Jesus Christ, Who is that Remedy.

That’s all very nice, but that’s in the NT. Moreover the NT is not as lovey-dovey as all that, which I’ll get to later.

The Bible does not yield its meaning to those who do not read it with the help that God alone can give. If our attitude to it is arrogant, or dismissive, then we make ourselves incapable of profiting from it. It is the reader, not the Book, that is under judgement; & we are judged by it - not the other way round.

More special pleading. The Quran does not yield its meaning to those who do not seek God’s help while reading it. If the Quran says that the Christian is worse than excrement - it is your fault for having an arrogant or dismissive attitude to it - how dare you criticize it. If the Quran says beating wives and polygamy are OK - it is your moral standards that are faulty if you criticize it on that basis. You have to conform to God, not demand God be conformed to you. It is you who are judged by the Quran - not the other way round. You have rendered yourself incapable of profiting from it. (Cont…)