Nasty God of the Hebrew Bible

[SeekingCatholic]

The God of Israel is rightly angered by human sin, & is in no way barbaric…

If Stalin decided to kill everyone in Russia because of something he was rightly angered by, everyone would call that “barbaric”. If any other god (like Zeus) did that, you would likewise call that “barbaric”. If Allah did that, you would call him barbaric. This is what the God of Israel allegedly did in the Flood - although we now know from geology and genetics there was no global flood, and there were more than 8 survivors. The God of Israel is only “off the hook”, as it were, because He in fact, did not do what He was thought to have done.

There is nothing worse than sin. If God were barbaric, He would not continually warn, & plead with, & have mercy on, & be gracious to, & forget the sins of, His wicked, deceitful, backsliding, ungrateful, treacherous, lying, & idolatrous people. Least of all would He have taken their sins on Himself. What you’re saying is a libel against God - it is hugely unfair

That’s all very well, but Scripture (the NT, no less) has it that He creates “vessels of wrath” that are “fitted for destruction”. Any other god would be castigated as barbaric if he did the same thing. He has the power to save all, but (according to Scripture) leaves the vast mass of men as “vessels of wrath” merely so that the “riches of his glory” might be made manifest on the select, lucky few. If any other god had the power to save all men from the flames of hell by fiat, but refused to do so to an original sin at the beginning of time which royally pissed him off, we would condemn him as barbaric, petty, vindictive, and wrathful.

God judges sin, because man is sinful, & wicked, & evil-hearted - blame man, not God. Yet all people ever do is blame God for the evils their own folly & wickedness have caused.

Their own folly and wickedness caused tsunamis, plagues, earthquakes, and so on?

The God of the Bible is Holy, & is Righteous.

Which is more special pleading. Allah is holy and righteous. Disprove that. Zeus is holy and righteous. Disprove that. If you condemn Zeus for his actions, all you are really doing is blaming him for the evils your own folly & wickedness have caused.

Man is unholy, & unrighteous. Each acts according to his nature. Which means that the wickedness of the latter is hateful to the former. Ignore sin - as your post does - & the God revealed in the Bible will seem to be angry about nothing at all. Understand that sin is an enormous evil - & many things in this sacred Book should, God Willing, become a lot clearer.

Special pleading again. Other sacred books also have gods angry at the conduct of humans. Why is the condemnation of Prometheus for helping out humans by giving them fire unjust? That was a sin - disobeying a divine command - an enormous evil. Why do we blame the gods and not Prometheus? Understand the enormous evil here and it will become clear the gods were righteously angry at the conduct of Prometheus.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I’m a faith-struggling Catholic. This is the first time I’m asking anyone these questions, because quite frankly I don’t think there’s a good answer, but here it goes:

Given the fact that there are so many competing truth claims in the world (Hinduism, Buddhisms, Islam, scientific materialism, etc.) which all more or less to some degree of success answer the big questions about our world and its meaning…

Why do we believe in the George Bush-like character of the Old Testament? Imagine the leader of a country like this god – it would look something like North Korea. Obey unquestionably. If you don’t, you’ll suffer every kind of torment. (Read Amos and Jeremiah) What kind of deity screws up creation so bad he has to destroy everyone (except Noah) and start over again? Is this really the vastly superior intelligence that’s responsible for the mind-boggling complexity of the universe?!

Why is there not ONE piece of supernatural knowledge presented in not just the OT but the NT as well. I’d expect this amazing intelligence to give us something beyond the rudimentary knowledge of 1000BC, but in fact, we cannot find anything supernaturally (or even naturally) intelligent in the OT. Compare this with the Buddhist scriptures which portray an incredible intelligence and understanding of human psychology and the nature of reality. In fact, many of the insights of Buddhism are being confirmed by neuroscience and cosmology today – from an Indian monk 2500 years ago. This is impressive and it’s not allegedly from the creator of the universe. One might expect the creator of the universe to offer something even more substantial than an uneducated monk 2500 years ago, but in fact we have nothing – or do we? That’s my question.

And keep in mind, it’s in the context of looking at all of the various truth claims around the world. Imagine a random clueless someone comes to Bible, reads it, and then has to make a decision: is this deity in the Bible really the supernatural creator of the universe?! He has to also decide this based on reading all of the other worldviews out there.

I’d think anybody not blinded my faith would answer that no, this barbaric, angry deity portrayed in the OT is not the creator of the universe, but I’m open to being convinced otherwise.

Thank you.

Read the book of 2 Esdras in your Catholic Bible. It will give you the answers you seek along with a dose of humility.

Peace…

MW

 

[kmarie08]

I don’t know if this helps at all, but this is something personal that helped my struggle with God’s seemingly terrible nature in the OT. I had very recently been struggling with the fact that God in the OT doesn’t seem at all like God in the NT, and it really upset me that it seemed like He thought it was ok to kill off some people and not others, and it really worried me!! And I searched for a few weeks and worried some more and still couldn’t find an answer. And finally I was like, oh, I really haven’t prayed about this. So I prayed about it, and I opened up the book of Exodus (because I had been worrying particularly about why God “hardened the Egyptians hearts”, so that they would follow the Israelites into the Red Sea, and then killed them when they had started to turn back and wouldn’t have hurt the Israelites anyway- it seemed cruel and I didn’t understand). So I opened up Exodus, and I was like “God, I don’t understand why you would do this! Aren’t you merciful?” And literally as I said that it was like God highlighted it for me: “… the Lord… looked down upon the host of the Egyptians, and discomfitted the host of the Egyptians, clogging their chariot wheels so that they drove heavily; and the Egyptians said, ‘Let us flee from before Israel, for the LORD fights for them against the Egyptians.’”

God gave me such an amazing grace to see this:
He had hardened their hearts, so that they might drive their chariots into the middle of the Red Sea. Then, at the moment that they acknowledge God as “the Lord” and believed in His power, he told Moses to stretch his hand over the sea, killing all of the Egyptians. **He had taken them at their best moment! ** He IS loving and merciful! He loved them so much, He was willing to kill them the second they had faith and believed in Him so that they may possibly be saved (do you see a little type of the good thief?)

I don’t care if I don’t understand all of the other times people were killed in the OT. People do not have the mind and understanding of God. I just know that He is good and merciful, and He has a reason for everything He does and allows.

 

[kmarie08]

Sorry! I forgot to tell you the Bible verse is Exodus 14:24-29

 

[Catholic_JIMMY]

Look up the Nephilium.
And to answer another part of this quote, do you know how many miracles connected with Yeshua (Jesus) occur? Many of which are so amazing that doctors, scientists, ect. are left without an answer.
The people whom God punished were not the nicest people. many of commited human sacrifice (many of which were new-born babies). Needless to say God is easily angered by people who kill people under the age of twelve. So angered that he gives the go-ahead to the Hebrews to wipe out many of the Caananites. And do not argue that since God alowed children to died during the Hebrew atttacks that he is not fair. Do not forget that the souls of the innocent children went to Heaven.

Consider the OT the Wild Wide West where God had to lay down the law and the NT as civilization where God had to tell people how he wanted them to act all along.

 

[Henning]

In fact, Jesus appears as the anamoly in the history of that terrible, desert-dwelling deity. In the OT you have a deity who demands your allegiance, otherwise he’ll destroy you. Then Jesus comes along and it gets a little lovey-dovey.

Along with post #17 consider:

Revelation 2:22-23
“Behold, I will cast her (prophetess Jezebel) into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. *And I will kill her children with death…and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.”

 

[jean8]

I’m a faith-struggling Catholic. This is the first time I’m asking anyone these questions, because quite frankly I don’t think there’s a good answer, but here it goes:

Given the fact that there are so many competing truth claims in the world (Hinduism, Buddhisms, Islam, scientific materialism, etc.) which all more or less to some degree of success answer the big questions about our world and its meaning…

Why do we believe in the George Bush-like character of the Old Testament? Imagine the leader of a country like this god – it would look something like North Korea. Obey unquestionably. If you don’t, you’ll suffer every kind of torment. (Read Amos and Jeremiah) What kind of deity screws up creation so bad he has to destroy everyone (except Noah) and start over again? Is this really the vastly superior intelligence that’s responsible for the mind-boggling complexity of the universe?!

Why is there not ONE piece of supernatural knowledge presented in not just the OT but the NT as well. I’d expect this amazing intelligence to give us something beyond the rudimentary knowledge of 1000BC, but in fact, we cannot find anything supernaturally (or even naturally) intelligent in the OT. Compare this with the Buddhist scriptures which portray an incredible intelligence and understanding of human psychology and the nature of reality. In fact, many of the insights of Buddhism are being confirmed by neuroscience and cosmology today – from an Indian monk 2500 years ago. This is impressive and it’s not allegedly from the creator of the universe. One might expect the creator of the universe to offer something even more substantial than an uneducated monk 2500 years ago, but in fact we have nothing – or do we? That’s my question.

And keep in mind, it’s in the context of looking at all of the various truth claims around the world. Imagine a random clueless someone comes to Bible, reads it, and then has to make a decision: is this deity in the Bible really the supernatural creator of the universe?! He has to also decide this based on reading all of the other worldviews out there.

I’d think anybody not blinded my faith would answer that no, this barbaric, angry deity portrayed in the OT is not the creator of the universe, but I’m open to being convinced otherwise.

Thank you.

jose,
What you must do is keep your heart centered on the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Trinity is not embraced by the beliefs of those you mentioned above.
Christains are Trinitatrians. They Believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is the very first truth we must believe and understand.

God bless you,
jean8

 

[redhen]

One can special plead out of any difficulty, but it is far from a convincing argument to one who doesn’t already accept the paradigm. I’m going to play devil’s advocate here because it really annoys me when Christian apologists engage in obvious special pleading and sneering dismissals of their opponent’s objections and difficulties. This creates more atheists, not more Christians.

I agree. I also agree with your assessments of the claims you quoted. Besides special pleading and begging the question, I also spotted some red herrings, non sequiturs and false dichotomies.

Do deductive and inductive logic not apply to the field of Apologetics?

 

[bbarrick8383]

Your questions are similar to the questions that I have been asking myself for far too long. What I finally realized is that I will never be “all knowing”. What I realized is that I must quit trying to reason myself out of something that I will never fully understand and that my only option is to be all faithful.
That is what God wants me to do, that is what I will do. If you delve into the alternative of questions without any answers you will find that there is no reward there, only punishment. He asks you to not ask of him, he has given his son, before you could even ask. He asks you to follow him, regardless, pray for forgiveness for questioning what he has done or will do because you may not understand. The answers are right there, the truth is right there it is easy to reason yourself away from it all.

 

[redhen]

Your questions are similar to the questions that I have been asking myself for far too long. What I finally realized is that I will never be “all knowing”. What I realized is that I must quit trying to reason myself out of something that I will never fully understand and that my only option is to be all faithful.

Did you not reason yourself into this faith? Why would God give homo sapiens his greatest characteristic, reason, and then put all the emphasis on faith?

Why does God **demand **faith/belief? Why is it so important to Him?

I really don’t understand this insistence.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Did you not reason yourself into this faith? Why would God give homo sapiens his greatest characteristic, reason, and then put all the emphasis on faith?

Why does God **demand **faith/belief? Why is it so important to Him?

I really don’t understand this insistence.

No, I almost reasoned myself completely OUT of it. Because I asked questions in the same sense of things. What is reasoning but an arm of free will. You have the ability to question the history of the Bible, you have the ability to question the history of Gods actions. Those abilities make it easy to reason yourself completely out of Church.

Whats hard, is ignoring that reason and accepting that you will not understand everything at this time and maybe never in your physical life. Who knows, believe, have faith, show him you love him and one day when you cross over into the spiritual life he may sit down and tell you.

 

[redhen]

No, I almost reasoned myself completely OUT of it.

So how did you get in without using reason and critical thinking?

Because I asked questions in the same sense of things. What is reasoning but an arm of free will. You have the ability to question the history of the Bible, you have the ability to question the history of Gods actions. Those abilities make it easy to reason yourself completely out of Church.

This is natural. This is the stimulus motive, a drive(need) in our species. Homo sapiens are innately curious and have a drive to explore and learn new information. Asking questions is a good thing.

Whats hard, is ignoring that reason and accepting that you will not understand everything at this time and maybe never in your physical life. Who knows, believe, have faith, show him you love him and one day when you cross over into the spiritual life he may sit down and tell you.

Yes of course it would be hard, in fact it would be unnatural. This is called cognitive dissonance and can be mentally unhealthy.

 

[bbarrick8383]

So how did you get in without using reason and critical thinking?

This is natural. This is the stimulus motive, a drive(need) in our species. Homo sapiens are innately curious and have a drive to explore and learn new information. Asking questions is a good thing.

Yes of course it would be hard, in fact it would be unnatural. This is called cognitive dissonance and can be mentally unhealthy.

The reason and critical thinking I used to get back into Church was focus on the fact that I have been in the wrong Church all my life. I am not Catholic yet. You are mixing things up here, cognitive dissonance, would be like your friend lying to you and you kind of think that he lied but you want to believe your friend as well. You can use any worldly example to explain cognitive dissonance, but you cannot apply it to faith.

You are using that as reasoning to not believe in the word of God. If God is almighty, why could he not create a flood and prevent us from finding all evidence? Those who lack faith from lack of evidence leave the path to God. Those who disregard evidence because they know that God is almighty will stay on the path. Always remember, many are called but few are chosen. You have been called, you know the faith, stick with it so you can be chosen.

Like I said, I spent the last 10 years asking questions. Ultimately, after having my second son, I could not ask questions any longer. God will do as he does, and I’ll believe and show faith till the day I die without any more question.

 

[redhen]

The reason and critical thinking I used to get back into Church was focus on the fact that I have been in the wrong Church all my life.

I meant how did you use reason and critical thinking to **get into **the Church in the first place?

I am not Catholic yet. You are mixing things up here, cognitive dissonance, would be like your friend lying to you and you kind of think that he lied but you want to believe your friend as well. You can use any worldly example to explain cognitive dissonance, but you cannot apply it to faith.

Ok thanks, that’s what I thought. Psychology and modes of reasoning do not apply to belief systems.

Those who lack faith from lack of evidence leave the path to God. Those who disregard evidence because they know that God is almighty will stay on the path.

Thanks but I try to use my head to think, not my gut.

 

[bbarrick8383]

I meant how did you use reason and critical thinking to **get into **the Church in the first place?

Ok thanks, that’s what I thought. Psychology and modes of reasoning do not apply to belief systems.

Thanks but I try to use my head to think, not my gut.

I was raised in a Church of Christ. If you know much about their beliefs then you would understand that I only believe in one true Church from the get go. Thats where it all started.

You can study psychology and modes of reasoning all you want, but to me there is no room for it in my faith.

Stop trying to use your head as well, it will get you into more trouble than its worth. Instead, do what your heart tells you to, I’m not trying to sound like a motivational speaker here. I’m a logical person as well, but logic does not always apply here.

 

[juliamajor]

Why do people expect the biblical authors to reflect modern ethos?Their writings reflect the mores,customs,national identity of their times.Would we kill our children for disobedience ?- No. How did the ancients feel about that? They had the power of death and life over their children in the NE. Rome had a similar idea that fell under the rights of the paterfamilias. Their outlook on life was different then ours and that is reflected in their writings.God inspires but man is the vehicle that carries His word. Did God just push information into an author’s head, program him and then pour out writings? The Bible was not dictated (that is not acceptable to Catholic thinking)…So how does a human interpret divine thoughts?God’s inspiration transmuted into human thoughts via the human vehicles background, thoughts, fears, psyche, etc.Peace

 

[notsmart]

I’m a faith-struggling Catholic. This is the first time I’m asking anyone these questions, because quite frankly I don’t think there’s a good answer, but here it goes:

Given the fact that there are so many competing truth claims in the world (Hinduism, Buddhisms, Islam, scientific materialism, etc.) which all more or less to some degree of success answer the big questions about our world and its meaning…

Why do we believe in the George Bush-like character of the Old Testament? Imagine the leader of a country like this god – it would look something like North Korea. Obey unquestionably. If you don’t, you’ll suffer every kind of torment. (Read Amos and Jeremiah) What kind of deity screws up creation so bad he has to destroy everyone (except Noah) and start over again? Is this really the vastly superior intelligence that’s responsible for the mind-boggling complexity of the universe?!

Why is there not ONE piece of supernatural knowledge presented in not just the OT but the NT as well. I’d expect this amazing intelligence to give us something beyond the rudimentary knowledge of 1000BC, but in fact, we cannot find anything supernaturally (or even naturally) intelligent in the OT. Compare this with the Buddhist scriptures which portray an incredible intelligence and understanding of human psychology and the nature of reality. In fact, many of the insights of Buddhism are being confirmed by neuroscience and cosmology today – from an Indian monk 2500 years ago. This is impressive and it’s not allegedly from the creator of the universe. One might expect the creator of the universe to offer something even more substantial than an uneducated monk 2500 years ago, but in fact we have nothing – or do we? That’s my question.

And keep in mind, it’s in the context of looking at all of the various truth claims around the world. Imagine a random clueless someone comes to Bible, reads it, and then has to make a decision: is this deity in the Bible really the supernatural creator of the universe?! He has to also decide this based on reading all of the other worldviews out there.

I’d think anybody not blinded my faith would answer that no, this barbaric, angry deity portrayed in the OT is not the creator of the universe, but I’m open to being convinced otherwise.

Thank you.

The largest reason to discount any faith other than christianity is that God came in the flesh and dwelt amoung us. I don’t need a perfect bible. I need a perfect God.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

I’d think anybody not blinded -]my/-] [by] faith would answer that no, this barbaric, angry deity portrayed in the OT is not the creator of the universe, but I’m open to being convinced otherwise.

Thank you.

So, you’re a Marcionite heretic?

…or some other “gnostic-oid” type?

:shamrock2:

 

[nsper7]

Honestly, I kind of find the God in the NT scarier than God in the OT. After all, God in the OT never threatens to send people to Hell, if you read the Prophets, you will see that the goal of the plagues and punishments is to get people to return to God, not simply to obliterate them.

In fact, the Prophets tend to be my favorite books because there is always hope in the end. In Hell, there is no hope.

And remember, God granted numerous blessing and miracles to the Israelites, yet they always turned against Him (read Exodus to see this…every time something goes wrong, the Israelites doubt God’s power and ability to save them).

Think about it, the rules are pretty simple in the OT and God’s rewards are numerous, yet the Israelites are quick to turn their back on God, and again and again, God is willing to accept them back if they will stop worshiping false alien gods.

Also, a lot of times, when God ‘punishes’ the Israelites, it is not necessarily Him actively harming them, but it is often just God removing His Divine Presence from them and, thus, they suffer because they have no protection from invading armies or the elements or something.

 

[PatV]

Psalm 18