National Healthcare Dangers NHS example

[Sarahforgiven]

I found this article about a healthcare worker who was fired for being pro-life.

protectthepope.com/?p=3323

Catholic Healthcare Worker Sacked for Pro-life Stance
Margeret Forrester, a Catholic healthcare worker, has been sacked by the*Central and North-West London NHS Trust following six months of disciplinary hearings for holding an informal discussion with colleagues about evidence that abortion causes harm to women.

As an American healthcare worker who works in a “Catholic” hospital system, this does not suprise me at all.
I have met fellow Catholics who support more govt. Control of HC in the US from the position of social justice. But I reall think this is where we are headed if the government runs the whole system (They already run a lot of our HC system in the form of regulatory requirements etc.).

Any thoughts from others on this subject?

 

[FightingFat]

That’s a very interesting point well made. I love the NHS and see it as a great force for good. But it does suffer from the dictates of what society at large sees as moral. I would suggest that the solution is that we make a better pro-life case!

 

[Sarahforgiven]

Yes, as abortion & euthanasia are becoming more prevalent we all need to be aware of the cost.

 

[davidmlamb]

I found this article about a healthcare worker who was fired for being pro-life.

protectthepope.com/?p=3323

Catholic Healthcare Worker Sacked for Pro-life Stance
Margeret Forrester, a Catholic healthcare worker, has been sacked by the*Central and North-West London NHS Trust following six months of disciplinary hearings for holding an informal discussion with colleagues about evidence that abortion causes harm to women.

As an American healthcare worker who works in a “Catholic” hospital system, this does not suprise me at all.
I have met fellow Catholics who support more govt. Control of HC in the US from the position of social justice. But I reall think this is where we are headed if the government runs the whole system (They already run a lot of our HC system in the form of regulatory requirements etc.).

Any thoughts from others on this subject?

In the United States the government has not performed 1 abortion. Abortions are performed by private for profit health care providers. No one is forcing them to do it and they have the freedom not to provide abortion services. More then 85% of all American Health Care insurance pays for abortion services on demand. So why all the outrage with the government when it is private for profit health care providers and insurance that are providing these services?

If the United States government truly took over all of the American health care industry by socializing medicine to a Veterans Health Care Administration like system abortion services would instantly be wiped out in America because of the Hyde Amendment. No need to wait for enough conservative judges to be appointed to the Supreme Court Bench because if we socialized medicine in the United States it would be equivelent to adopting a constitutional amendment to protect the fetus.

But the truth is right wing politicians do not care about abortion, they care about capitalism free from government intervention and this is the exact reason why the United States as the highest abortion rates in the world. Because the love of money is the root of all evil and capitalism is the love of money. “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money. Matt 6:23-25

Peace,
David

 

[Sarahforgiven]

Thank you David for your reply, I was more interested in finding out how other healthcare workers feel about their workplaces and if they felt being prolife might cause problems for them as in the article link. Also, if the government completely takes over US care, it may place healthcare providers in the position of having to assist with these types of procedures or be fired etc.
Also when I used the word cost, I was meaning to refer to the cost of the sin of abortion/euthanasia. It is unfathomable to me.

 

[seekerz]

In the United States the government has not performed 1 abortion. Abortions are performed by private for profit health care providers. No one is forcing them to do it and they have the freedom not to provide abortion services. More then 85% of all American Health Care insurance pays for abortion services on demand. So why all the outrage with the government when it is private for profit health care providers and insurance that are providing these services?

If the United States government truly took over all of the American health care industry by socializing medicine to a Veterans Health Care Administration like system abortion services would instantly be wiped out in America because of the Hyde Amendment. No need to wait for enough conservative judges to be appointed to the Supreme Court Bench because if we socialized medicine in the United States it would be equivelent to adopting a constitutional amendment to protect the fetus.

But the truth is right wing politicians do not care about abortion, they care about capitalism free from government intervention and this is the exact reason why the United States as the highest abortion rates in the world. Because the love of money is the root of all evil and capitalism is the love of money. “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money. Matt 6:23-25

Peace,
David

Interesting remark. I asked similar questions on this forum during the health reform debate: what accounts for the furor over the possibility that some clinics may violate the Hyde amendment when commercial insurance companies, supported by our premiums, are actually, presently funding abortions with nary a whimper against them?

Somehow I always managed to get a reply from someone whose insurance policy was thoroughly in accordance with Catholic principles…

 

[seekerz]

Thank you David for your reply, I was more interested in finding out how other healthcare workers feel about their workplaces and if they felt being prolife might cause problems for them as in the article link. Also, if the government completely takes over US care, it may place healthcare providers in the position of having to assist with these types of procedures or be fired etc.
Also when I used the word cost, I was meaning to refer to the cost of the sin of abortion/euthanasia. It is unfathomable to me.

Not sure that this has very much to do with government control of health care. From what I know, unless one works in an institution which is overtly pro-life (such as a Catholic Hospital functioning in compliance with Church teaching) refusal to take part in abortion is allowed in policy, but frowned upon in reality. The kind of hounding experienced by this poor lady, is also not unknown in private institution for any number of reasons, substantial or otherwise. So my analysis is that this kind of thing could happen if your views conflict with those of your coworkers or supervisors regardless of the nature of your health care system.

 

[Orogeny]

In the United States the government has not performed 1 abortion. Abortions are performed by private for profit health care providers. No one is forcing them to do it and they have the freedom not to provide abortion services. More then 85% of all American Health Care insurance pays for abortion services on demand. So why all the outrage with the government when it is private for profit health care providers and insurance that are providing these services?

Well, it looks like the government is about to force private insurers to give free Plan B pills to women. That includes any health insurance offered by the Church.

From nytimes.com/2011/07/20/health/policy/20health.html :
NY Times article:

A leading medical advisory panel recommended on Tuesday that all insurers be required to cover contraceptives for women free of charge as one of several preventive services under the new health care law.

Obama administration officials said that they were inclined to accept the panel’s advice and that the new requirements could take effect for many plans at the beginning of 2013.
(snip)
The new health care law says insurers must cover “preventive health services” and cannot charge for them. Ms. Sebelius will decide on a minimum package of essential health benefits, and her decision will not require further action by Congress.
(snip)
This recommendation would require coverage of emergency contraceptives including pills like ella and Plan B, panel members said.

(bolding mine)

So you see, your argument is irrelevant. The government may not directly perform abortions, but they will, starting in 2013, require all health insurance plans to provide them at no charge.

But the truth is right wing politicians do not care about abortion, they care about capitalism free from government intervention and this is the exact reason why the United States as the highest abortion rates in the world. Because the love of money is the root of all evil and capitalism is the love of money. “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money. Matt 6:23-25

But the truth is left wing politicians don’t care about human life and that is the exact reason why the United States has the highest abortion rates in the world.

Is love of money more evil than killing a baby?

Peace

Tim

 

[Corki]

In the United States the government has not performed 1 abortion. Abortions are performed by private for profit health care providers. No one is forcing them to does it and they have the freedom not to provide abortion services.

Peace,
David

I’m sorry but this is just plain false. Unless you don’t consider the military part of the government or the state-owned and operated health faciliites as part of the government.

Most abortions are not performed by for-profit entities but by not-for-profit clinics and hospitals. Their not-for-profiit status gives them breaks from taxes as well as government subsidies, in many cases. Planned Parenthood alone, a not-for-profit provider performs over 1/4 of all the abortions in the US.

As for freedom not to provide services, this is the relevant issue. When healthcare is nationalized, all providers will be required to subscribe to a “basket” of services. If abortion is in the approved “basket” it will be required of all.

 

[davidmlamb]

Well, it looks like the government is about to force private insurers to give free Plan B pills to women. That includes any health insurance offered by the Church. So you see, your argument is irrelevant. The government may not directly perform abortions, but they will, starting in 2013, require all health insurance plans to provide them at no charge.

Tim the article is talking about providing contreceptive services which in no way can be confused with abortion. I agree that contraception is immoral but the fact remains that the government is not forcing any one to use contraception and neither does the government perform or force women to have abortions. People do these things by their own free will. Catholics have the Church to help them have a well informed conscience not to be involved in an abortion or use contraception. Health Care reform is saving many lives.

I have a 21 year old daughter who has epilepsy and between the time she was 18 and 21 she racked up 20K dollars in medical bills from severe seizure that kept her hospitalized. She had no health insurance because she has a low paying job. My daughters life was at risk everyday. But now because of health care reform I can cover her under my employer health care plan until she is 26. The point I am making is that health care reform supports human dignity. Health care is a natural right because it is tied to right to life. Prior to the new health care law 45,000 people died each year as a direct result of either not being able to afford health care or because their insurance company’s deliberately delayed approving life saving treatment and procedures in hopes that the patient would die before they had to shell out the money to pay. All this is intrinisic evil and the new health care law has put an end to it. Thank you Jesus!

But the truth is left wing politicians don’t care about human life and that is the exact reason why the United States has the highest abortion rates in the world.

France, Germany, Canada, Italy, Spain, and Britain are all far more liberal then the United States yet all those countries combined do not have the abortion rates the United States has. So the problem cannot be left wing politicians. In fact, France which is ultra liberal not only provides free health care for its citizens but also paid free nanny service for 1 year after a woman has a baby! And she gets 1 year of paid maternity leave as does the father!! That sounds pretty pro life too me! Women in France would never feel pressured to have an abortion because the state has created conditions to promote life.

This could happen in the United States but it won’t because people would rather not have some socialism then save the unborn. Why? because of the love of money! Americans care more about saving money in taxes then promoting life and human dignity. Right wing conservatism is not about being pro life but about being pro self gain. That is why that although right wingers cry out “no socialism” not one of them will refuse their Social Security and Medicare. Why? Because Right Wing Conservatism is pro self gain. They have no clue or concept of temperance or loving their neighbor as they love themselves.

For the average right wing pundit government health care is evil except when it is time for them to collect Medicare. Government handouts are evil until it is time for them to collect Social Security provided by working tax payers. Do you see the hypocrisy here? Socialism is only bad when you are on the giving end, but good when you are on the receiving end.

Is love of money more evil than killing a baby?

YES! Because the love of money is at the root of abortions. As I pointed out before only private for profit companies supply abortions because their is a demand for it. The government does not supply abortions, the free market does.

Peace,
David

 

[davidmlamb]

I’m sorry but this is just plain false. Unless you don’t consider the military part of the government or the state-owned and operated health faciliites as part of the government.

Most abortions are not performed by for-profit entities but by not-for-profit clinics and hospitals. Their not-for-profiit status gives them breaks from taxes as well as government subsidies, in many cases. Planned Parenthood alone, a not-for-profit provider performs over 1/4 of all the abortions in the US.

As for freedom not to provide services, this is the relevant issue. When healthcare is nationalized, all providers will be required to subscribe to a “basket” of services. If abortion is in the approved “basket” it will be required of all.

Im sorry Corki but you are the one who is wrong. Although planned parenthood is a not for profit organization, private health care insurance IS for profit in most cases. 88% of all private health care insurance provides for abortion services and non profit organizations like planned parenthood will gladly take your blue cross/blue shield insurance to pay for an abortion. Yet until health care reform was on the table I never heard a peep from Catholics that billions of dollars of insurance premiums aided in abortion. Insurance premiums are nothing more then a voluntary private tax paid to receive a service. Again I will point out that no one is forcing women to have abortions, they freely choose to have them. If they will not listen to the Church then neither would they obey any law against abortion. Only women and those directly involved in an abortion incur guilt and not the voters, Presidents, Congress, or judges. The new health care law prohibits abortions even indirectly which means most private insurance carriers can no longer provide abortion services. And even though someone may disobey the law or find some kind of loophole, the new health care law does not have abortion as a package deal.

Peace,
David

 

[seekerz]

Im sorry Corki but you are the one who is wrong. Although planned parenthood is a not for profit organization, private health care insurance IS for profit in most cases. 88% of all private health care insurance provides for abortion services and non profit organizations like planned parenthood will gladly take your blue cross/blue shield insurance to pay for an abortion. Yet until health care reform was on the table I never heard a peep from Catholics that billions of dollars of insurance premiums aided in abortion. Insurance premiums are nothing more then a voluntary private tax paid to receive a service. Again I will point out that no one is forcing women to have abortions, they freely choose to have them. If they will not listen to the Church then neither would they obey any law against abortion. Only women and those directly involved in an abortion incur guilt and not the voters, Presidents, Congress, or judges. The new health care law prohibits abortions even indirectly which means most private insurance carriers can no longer provide abortion services. And even though someone may disobey the law or find some kind of loophole, the new health care law does not have abortion as a package deal.

Peace,
David

Hi David,

I find your perspectives interesting, so maybe you can answer this question in that clear, direct manner with which you present your arguments. Do you see a difference between tax contributions going to support universal health care (as the law stands now) and private premiums going to commercial insurance companies which provide both plans which do and plans which do not, reimburse for abortion? Corki and I just recently had these discussions on another thread…well, anyway, I’d like to hear what you have to say.

 

[Corki]

In the United States the government has not performed 1 abortion. Abortions are performed by private for profit health care providers. No one is forcing them to do it and they have the freedom not to provide abortion services. More then 85% of all American Health Care insurance pays for abortion services on demand. So why all the outrage with the government when it is private for profit health care providers and insurance that are providing these services?

If the United States government truly took over all of the American health care industry by socializing medicine to a Veterans Health Care Administration like system abortion services would instantly be wiped out in America because of the Hyde Amendment. No need to wait for enough conservative judges to be appointed to the Supreme Court Bench because if we socialized medicine in the United States it would be equivelent to adopting a constitutional amendment to protect the fetus.

But the truth is right wing politicians do not care about abortion, they care about capitalism free from government intervention and this is the exact reason why the United States as the highest abortion rates in the world. Because the love of money is the root of all evil and capitalism is the love of money. “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money. Matt 6:23-25

Peace,
David

I’m sorry but this is just plain false. Unless you don’t consider the military part of the government or the state-owned and operated health faciliites as part of the government.

Most abortions are not performed by for-profit entities but by not-for-profit clinics and hospitals. Their not-for-profiit status gives them breaks from taxes as well as government subsidies, in many cases. Planned Parenthood alone, a not-for-profit provider performs over 1/4 of all the abortions in the US.

As for freedom not to provide services, this is the relevant issue. When healthcare is nationalized, all providers will be required to subscribe to a “basket” of services. If abortion is in the approved “basket” it will be required of all.

I was addressing not who pays but who performs.

Your statement

In the United States the government has not performed 1 abortion.

does not take into account the abortions performed in military hospitals by militar personnel or in state run clinics by government workers.

Your statement

Abortions are performed by private for profit health care providers.

was incomplete. Yes, “physicians” in private practice perform abortions but many, many abortions are performed in not-for-profit facilities.

Yet until health care reform was on the table I never heard a peep from Catholics that billions of dollars of insurance premiums aided in abortion.

Abortion in the health insurance of most organizations was often an added benefit that very few employees knew about. Even just 10 years ago, I never saw an insurance plan that covered “elective abortion;” it was almost always listed as an excluded procedure. (and I am “in the business” so to speak). Abortion coverage was added in to many plans almost stealthily, lumped in with coverage for contraception or infertility treatments as an “add on”.

However, it is not quite accurate to say there wasn’t a “peep” from Catholics about it. It was one of the main issues that came up in the FOCA protests. And there were several well-pubicized cases of Catholic institutions resisting efforts to add such coverage to thier plans. The sheer enormity of the problem, in my opionion, wasn’t understood by most Catholics, however, until the health care debate.

Private health care coverage is a very different problem too. As an employee, I don’t have much say in what my company decides to include in the plan they offer me. The bulk of the premium is paid by the company – very different from a government plan where ALL of the “premium” would be paid by taxpayers. Also, I can opt out of my company’s plan or chose an option with fewer benefits. You can’t do that with the government plan without being penalized.

 

[davidmlamb]

It does not take into account the abortions performed in military hospitals by militar personnel or in state run clinics by government workers.

Corki, military hospitals do not perform elective abortions, they are restricted by the Hyde Amendment. Neither does the VA perform elected abortions. I am guessing however that a military hospital may perform an abortion on a woman who had a documented reported sexual assault or maybe a heinous crime where lets say a 9 yeasr old girl (of a military family) was raped and became pregnant with twins. But these are not elective abortions and do not happen too often. As far as state governments, my argument implied only the federal government. There are some states like California that fund abortion in Medical which is California’s Medicaid program. States receive block federal grants for Medicaid and then the state provides its own money into the program and administers it.

Abortion in the health insurance of most organizations was often an added benefit that very few employees knew about. Even just 10 years ago, I never saw an insurance plan that covered “elective abortion;” it was almost always listed as an excluded procedure. (and I am “in the business” so to speak). Abortion coverage was added in to many plans almost stealthily, lumped in with coverage for contraception or infertility treatments as an “add on”.

I think abortion may have become part of private health care coverage in the 1990’s. In 2008 my 17 year old daughter became pregnant from her boyfriend and at the time our Blue/Cross Blue Shield health care insurance would not pay for any maternity care for her however, they would pay for an abortion. We were appalled. The new health care law put an end to this. By the way, my daughters boyfriend who was 18 signed up for the Marine Corps the day he found out she was pregnant, no coersion on my part >;-). After bootcamp and his training school he married her just 2 months before she gave birth and the military paid for everything. They have been married now for almost 3 years and my grandson is 2 1/2

However, it is not quite accurate to say there wasn’t a “peep” from Catholics about it. It was one of the main issues that came up in the FOCA protests. And there were several well-pubicized cases of Catholic institutions resisting efforts to add such coverage to thier plans. The sheer enormity of the problem, in my opionion, wasn’t understood by most Catholics, however, until the health care debate.

I never heard the Catholic Church or Catholics complain against private health insurance provided abortions until after the 2008 election. That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen though. However, I did here some time before that that they fought against having to provide contraceptive services in their health care plan when the state of California was proposing a new law that would require them to do so. I don’t think the law passed though.

Private health care coverage is a very different problem too. As an employee, I don’t have much say in what my company decides to include in the plan they offer me. The bulk of the premium is paid by the company – very different from a government plan where ALL of the “premium” would be paid by taxpayers. Also, I can opt out of my company’s plan or chose an option with fewer benefits. You can’t do that with the government plan without being penalized.

Well I do not think it is very different just because your employer pays most of your premium. Its part of your pay structure. The new health care law has no provisions for abortions and has actually made abortion more difficult to obtain. I am very happy with the new law because I believe it is a pro life law.

Peace,
David

 

[davidmlamb]

Hi David,

I find your perspectives interesting, so maybe you can answer this question in that clear, direct manner with which you present your arguments. Do you see a difference between tax contributions going to support universal health care (as the law stands now) and private premiums going to commercial insurance companies which provide both plans which do and plans which do not, reimburse for abortion? Corki and I just recently had these discussions on another thread…well, anyway, I’d like to hear what you have to say.

Well I am not exactly sure what you are asking here but I will try to give an answer: Prior to the new health care law I saw no conceptual difference in government funded abortions (which there are none) verses private insurance funded abortions. Private health insurance provides a service the exact same way a public service is paid for. Private health care insurance collects premiums from the masses and uses that capital to provide health care benefits to its consumers. Publicly paid health care like the VA, Medicare, or the military receives its “premiums” from tax payers. The differences are one “tax” is voluntary and the other is not, AND, a public benefit has a much larger pool of people paying into the program.

The new health care law has forced any private insurance company participating in the federal program to drop their elective abortion services. So the new health care law has made it more difficult to procure abortions. Therefore the situation now is very different.

Because the federal government is now subsidizing private health care with taxes the pool has become much larger, millions of more people have signed up and the cost directly to the consumer will be much more affordable. The plan is not perfect but it works. Personally I believe in cradle to grave Medicare to cover basic services, emergency services, and catastrophic services. Private health care can be purchased as a secondary insurance. I believe that health care should be provided by the public sector just like roads and bridges and not by the private sector. I feel the same way about emergency dental care where the patient is in pain and is suffering. These are pro life and pro human dignity issues for me. I hope I was able to answer your question.

Peace,

David

 

[Corki]

Corki, military hospitals do not perform elective abortions, they are restricted by the Hyde Amendment. Neither does the VA perform elected abortions. I am guessing however that a military hospital may perform an abortion on a woman who had a documented reported sexual assault or maybe a heinous crime where lets say a 9 yeasr old girl (of a military family) was raped and became pregnant with twins.

These two sentances are contradictory. Just because a woman is a rape victim or underage doesn’t make the abortion any less elective.

I am not take the position that there is widespread government abortions. I am simply refuting the absolutism you claimed in saying that the US government has not performed **even one **abortion.

 

[davidmlamb]

These two sentances are contradictory. Just because a woman is a rape victim or underage doesn’t make the abortion any less elective.

I am not take the position that there is widespread government abortions. I am simply refuting the absolutism you claimed in saying that the US government has not performed **even one **abortion.

I believe that an elective abortion implies using abortion as a means of birth control while non elective abortion implies emninent death of the mother or forcible rape. I am aware that the Church is against abortion even in these cases but I dissent from that position. I feel that in some cases abortion is justified. Eminent death of the mother and forcible rape are exceptions for me. This is the Jewish position. My wife on the other would not have an abortion under the circumstances of forceable rape but I think she would take the morning after pill which is a type of abortion which prevents a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterin wall. I know that if my wife life was in emnent danger from pregnancy I would terminate the pregnancy and then have to deal with it afterwords in the sacrament of reconcilliation or perhaps even judgment. Of course I have never been put to this test and I hope I never will.

Peace,

David

 

[Corki]

I believe that an elective abortion implies using abortion as a means of birth control while non elective abortion implies emninent death of the mother or forcible rape.David

Then this is a debate about vocabulary. In medical and insurance terms an elective abortion is one that is done at the hands of a doctor vs. a spontaneous abortion which is also known as a miscarriage.

 

[seekerz]

Then this is a debate about vocabulary. In medical and insurance terms an elective abortion is one that is done at the hands of a doctor vs. a spontaneous abortion which is also known as a miscarriage.

Spontaneous = miscarriage. One that did not occur naturally (i.e. was caused by someone) = induced. Induced abortion with no ‘medical reason’ (i.e. simply as a matter of choice) = elective.

 

[Corki]

Spontaneous = miscarriage. One that did not occur naturally (i.e. was caused by someone) = induced. Induced abortion with no ‘medical reason’ (i.e. simply as a matter of choice) = elective.

In “insurance-speak” (I have worked with employee benefit plans for 20 years) an abortion is elective if it is done performed for any reason other than as part of emergency surgery to save the mother’s life. David’s examples of a rape victim and an underage girl would both be elective abortions.

Sometimes they use the term “theraputic abortion” to mean an abortion that is non-spontaneous and medically recommended but it’s still elective.