Nationality and ethnicity

[Londoner]

Historically, nationality and ethnicity were one and the same. It is only recently that has changed.

As suggested by @CCHcolonel , I’ve posted this as a new topic.

I don’t think it’s true that, “Historically, nationality and ethnicity were one and the same.” I think that was a situation that existed in some parts of the world from around the middle of the 19th century until around the middle of the 20th century.

On the one hand, European states and their overseas empires often encompassed populations that included people from a multiplicity of ethnic, linguistic, cultural, and religious groups. Examples within Europe would include the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Austrian Empire/Kingdom of Hungary, Russian Empire, German Empire, and Ottoman Empire (and the Holy Roman Empire insofar as one could call it a state). Beyond Europe, Spanish and Portuguese settlers in the New World actively pursued a policy of intermarriage with native people. Following independence from Spain and Portugal, the countries of Latin America have never been nation states.

On the other hand, for hundreds of years, the Italian peninsula and the area we now call Germany both comprised dozens of small states that existed more or less independently of one another despite having broadly homogeneous populations.

Finally, you also need to consider that Europe and the former European colonies on the American continent and in Australia and New Zealand are actually somewhat exceptional. If you look at the Indian subcontinent, for example, you will not find a single period in its history when there has been an ethnically homogeneous nation state for Indians. And if you look at Africa, many of the continent’s problems stem from the fact that the borders of most of its countries were drawn fairly arbitrarily by Europeans, often combining dozens (sometimes hundreds) of small states and tribes in one country while splitting more homogeneous groups between different countries.

 

[twf]

Even in the Americas it hasn’t ever been homogeneous. The Dominion of Canada was originally formed out of four colonies, one of which was French, and the others English (with some French peppered throughout)…add to that the indigenous peoples. Indigenous peoples, and later immigrant groups aside, there was always a great cultural, religious, and linguistic divide between English and French Canadians.

 

[Salibi]

want all peoples to have their own homelands. Poland for Poles, England for the English, Scotland for the Scots.

Unworkable and potentially conflict-causing in so many areas of the world. Don’t forget that many places in the world have more than one ethnicity residing there simultaneously, and each having been there as long as the others. Who gets the land in that case? They all have the equal right to live there.

Homogeneous states are an impossibility.

Just for context I’m thinking primarily of my home area, the Middle East.

 

[twf]

Who qualifies as American? Just curious. What about ethnic Latinos who have been in New Mexico since before New Mexico was a US state? (To give one example of historic cultural diversity in America).

 

[Sarcelle]

The Middle East was arbitrarily sliced up by Europeans without any regard to how the tribes within got along with each other.

Also various ethnicities make up countries like India and China and contrary to popular belief, India and China are not homogeneous nations. There are a lot of differences between Uyghur and a Han Chinese and there is a lot of differences between a Punjabi and a Tamil.

Nation states come and go and people have always migrated so no there is nothing static and unchanging when it comes to nationality and ethnicity.

 

[Salibi]

The Middle East was arbitrarily sliced up by Europeans without any regard to how the tribes within got along with each other.

Correct. Sykes-Picot, the reason for much of the chaos in the Middle East today.

@CCHcolonel

I see where you’re coming from, but I disagree with your view. A Frenchman of Morrocan ethnicity is just as “French” as a Frenchman of white descent. This is French law. And even within France there are different “white” ( I presume you mean European) ethnicities; Occitans and Catalans and Basques and Roma. They’ve always lived in France.

Nationality is not a determinant of race.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

I want all peoples to have their own homelands. Poland for Poles, England for the English, Scotland for the Scots.

I reject the notion that a Pashtun from Afghanistan can be an Englishman and Vice Versa.

And what happens when you are a hodgepodge of various ethnicities some of which are a total mystery?

French people are white.

The French don’t see it that way, and haven’t seen it that way for centuries. Who are you to tell them how to identify their nationals?

 

[BartholomewB]

I want all peoples to have their own homelands. Poland for Poles, England for the English, Scotland for the Scots.

How will you deal with the Scots living in England, or English people living in Scotland? Are you proposing that they should all be forcibly repatriated?

 

[Sarcelle]

A lot of Irish people take great umbrage when meeting Americans who are of Irish descent who then claim to be Irish.

The Americans are then told that they may be of Irish descent but they are not Irish since they were born and raised in the US. They are Americans not Irish.

So no, ethnicity and nationality are not the same.

I have also met several Germans who identify not as German but as Saxons, Prussian or Bavarians.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

I wonder how he would decide who was entitled to reside here in the US, and how he’d decide which countries/ homelands people had to “go back” to?

 

[Salibi]

This is the case here in Lebanon too. Lots of the children of Lebanese immigrants are coming back here after having lived their entire lives abroad, they barely speak a word of Lebanese and are affronted when locals insist that they’re not “real” Lebanese. Because in the end, belonging to a race does not only imply being born to members of said race, it also implies sharing that race’s history, language, and culture.

These are my two cents on the matter.

 

[Sarcelle]

Americans don’t have one nationality.

Yes they do.

They’re Americans.

An American of Nigerian descent is no less an American than someone of Irish descent.

They may be of different ancestries but they are both Americans.

 

[Sarcelle]

Reminds me of my friend who is of Japanese ancestry.

He went to Japan and the people made it known to him that he was American not Japanese.

Same thing happened to another friend who was of Italian descent when he went to Italy.

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

I am an American. I was born in this country.
My ancestors immigrated from Germany, England, Scotland, and Spain.
I do not see the importance of people having a so-called homeland.
What difference does it make?
God sees us as one people. That is the important thing.

 

[Salibi]

understand you, and I know I’m not making much sense overall, because I’m not really sure how to really articulate it.

I understood what you meant.

Basically, I just see current immigration when coupled with a lot of the political issues as being a deliberate attempt to bloodlessly replace current populations of certain country’s.

Only western country’s are expected to absorb these huge amounts of immigrants from all over and expression of concern over the impact on the people living there is met with cries of racism and bigotry.

Certainly. And allow me to add that it’s not only the western countries. Here in Lebanon we’ve been having a refugee crisis for decades, millions of Palestinian refugees coupled now with the influx of a million and a half Syrians, and their sheer number alone has sent us into an economic and political crisis. Why, last week groups of these refugees demanded naturalization, and the whole country nearly went to hell. I don’t hate refugees or anything, and I certainly don’t support sending them back to their countries before it’s absolutely safe for them to return, but there’s no way on earth I’m going to stand for vast groups of foreigners becoming Lebanese. For one thing, they’re not Lebanese. For another thing, the majority of these refugees are Arab Muslims, which would A) combined with pre-existing Arab Muslim groups in Lebanon, transform ethnic Maronites like myself into a minority in our own country, and B) cause immense cultural and linguistic damage, especially since the Arabs have a history of trying to Arabize Lebanon. So really, I totally understand your concern.

 

[Rational1]

I understand that. But what spurred this thread was me being called a white supremacist for stating that it’s a shame that in some country’s that have always been white may soon find themselves a minority in their own land due to declining birth rates, abortions, euthanasia, and unchecked immigration.

The other persons assertion was that there is no such thing as a “white country” and I find that statement laughable. For the same reason I’d laugh if someone said there are no black country’s. It’s a farce.

Congolese people are black. French people are white. There are always exceptions and not every country can be one or the other but to deny them entirely is ridiculous.

I think that you would be surprised how many different ethnicities exist in any country. You may need to travel extensively within to really experience it. In fact even cultural differences within groups of people that have the same color or look can be quite diverse. I find diversity to be quite beautiful and I get a kick out of seeing the children that come from parents from diverse backgrounds, which allows me to appreciate God’s creativity and the beauty he creates.

 

[porthos11]

I’ve probably traveled more than most. I’ve been to 37 different country’s on 4 continents.

It’s what has shaped my opinion, that mass migration between country’s is not good, and can only lead to strife and trouble.

Well, I like to think that I am making Canada a better place and contributing to the Catholic Church in Canada, despite me not being white, Irish, Scottish, English, or French.

 

[Felicia1]

Only western country’s are expected to absorb these huge amounts of immigrants from all over

You should probably do a little research into current refugee populations and where they are located. You will find this statement is incorrect.

expression of concern over the impact on the people living there is met with cries of racism and bigotry.

When the impact you’re concerned about is the potentiality that at some point in the future a majority white country isn’t going to be majority white anymore you’re going to be met with those cries.

 

[Sarcelle]

Same here, only replace Canada with the US.

 

[Sarcelle]

I have a friend from Jordan who says the same thing.