Native Americans In Tradititional Catholicsm

[trickster]

My grandmother and mother were raised on the reservation and within the traditions of the church prior to Vatican II.

Many of the things that interest me about the pre-Vatican II (and I love the new post-Vatican II stuff as well - don’t get me wrong on this) is that the positioning of the priest between the people and the Blessed Sacrament, in many ways reflected better the relationship between Aboriginal people and God through the intermediary of a medicine person or shaman…yet, we also had the ability to talk to Creator directly.

The “pre-modernity” of pre-Vatican II and “pre-modernity” of traditional indigenous spirituality may be a focus that current anthropology, sociology and theology have not taken a look at and in dismissing that that Native American Catholics may have loved “the old church” is to miss perhaps a deeper connection.

Do you have any stories of the Catholic Church (prior to Vatican II) and Native American reservation “mission” work? Do you know any books or documentaries that took a look at this particular angle?

Thanks

Trickster (An Aboriginal Concept for Transformation)
Bruce Ferguson

 

[Mike30]

I don’t know the name of the book but there is one that details the California Missions and their work with Native Americans. You might also contact the Diocese of San Diego and/or Los Angeles. Both would have historical record of the type that you are looking for,.

 

[TimothyH]

My grandmother and mother were raised on the reservation and within the traditions of the church prior to Vatican II.

Many of the things that interest me about the pre-Vatican II (and I love the new post-Vatican II stuff as well - don’t get me wrong on this) is that the positioning of the priest between the people and the Blessed Sacrament, in many ways reflected better the relationship between Aboriginal people and God through the intermediary of a medicine person or shaman…yet, we also had the ability to talk to Creator directly.

Bruce, be careful here.

The position of the priest between the people and the altar/Blessed Sacrament “Ad orientem” and the position of the altar/Blessed Sacrament between the people and the priest “ad populum” were both practiced many centuries before Vatican II.

Monastic communites - Augustinian, Benedictine, etc. - had, and still have, large sancuaries with free standing altars, where the community of brothers gathered around and the priest/monk faced his brother monks. Such practice is organically Catholic and not exclusive to Churches or liturgies only after Vatican II, dating back to at least the year 1200 as far as I have been able to tell, and probably long before that.

Having said that, I have no idea how mission Churches ministering to native american populations were set up, but I know many were the work of consecrated religious communities such as might have free standing altars.

My point is, that it is not accurate to characterize ad orientem and ad populum in terms of being pre or post Vatican II practices. Both were practiced many centuries prior in the heart of the Catholic Church.

-Tim-

 

[trickster]

Bruce, be careful here.

The position of the priest between the people and the altar/Blessed Sacrament “Ad orientem” and the position of the altar/Blessed Sacrament between the people and the priest “ad populum” were both practiced many centuries before Vatican II.

Monastic communites - Augustinian, Benedictine, etc. - had, and still have, large sancuaries with free standing altars, where the community of brothers gathered around and the priest/monk faced his brother monks. Such practice is organically Catholic and not exclusive to Churches or liturgies only after Vatican II, dating back to at least the year 1200 as far as I have been able to tell, and probably long before that.

-Tim-

Hi Tim, I did not know that…this is truly interesting. I know that when I did retreats at our local Benedictine Monastery in Mission, BC…the alter was free standing and your right the priests and monks (religious community) said things as community. Thanks for the update on that one…

 

[trickster]

I don’t know the name of the book but there is one that details the California Missions and their work with Native Americans. You might also contact the Diocese of San Diego and/or Los Angeles. Both would have historical record of the type that you are looking for,.

Thanks Mike, for sure I will check to see if the dioceses has a website…on the California Missions…

BF

 

[TimothyH]

Hi Tim, I did not know that…this is truly interesting. I know that when I did retreats at our local Benedictine Monastery in Mission, BC…the alter was free standing and your right the priests and monks (religious community) said things as community. Thanks for the update on that one…

Our beloved Brother JR discusses it at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=612436&highlight=enclosure&page=2. See post #16.

I hope you find what you are looking for re. native/tribal connections to Catholicism.

Peace.

-Tim-

 

[Alfonsus]

I read interesting article yesterday in New Liturgical Movement blog.
It features requiem mass before Vatican II, from “The Book of Seven Nations” published in 1865 for the American Indian mission of Lake of Two Mountains, which contained both Mohawk-speaking and Algonquin-speaking Catholics. It features the sung ordinary and propers of requiem mass, in vernacular.

This is the link: newliturgicalmovement.org/#3741698641496036288

 

[trickster]

I read interesting article yesterday in New Liturgical Movement blog.
It features requiem mass before Vatican II, from “The Book of Seven Nations” published in 1865 for the American Indian mission of Lake of Two Mountains, which contained both Mohawk-speaking and Algonquin-speaking Catholics. It features the sung ordinary and propers of requiem mass, in vernacular.

This is the link: newliturgicalmovement.org/#3741698641496036288

Alfonsus, thanks so much for that reference, I have tagged it as a favourite and will review it later…I remember seeing a Catholic prayer book written in Algonquin (same source as above) and published in 1865 (but I had the newer more modern one published in 1908 or something

Bruce Ferguson

 

[ConstantineTG]

Bruce, be careful here.

The position of the priest between the people and the altar/Blessed Sacrament “Ad orientem” and the position of the altar/Blessed Sacrament between the people and the priest “ad populum” were both practiced many centuries before Vatican II.

Monastic communites - Augustinian, Benedictine, etc. - had, and still have, large sancuaries with free standing altars, where the community of brothers gathered around and the priest/monk faced his brother monks. Such practice is organically Catholic and not exclusive to Churches or liturgies only after Vatican II, dating back to at least the year 1200 as far as I have been able to tell, and probably long before that.

Having said that, I have no idea how mission Churches ministering to native american populations were set up, but I know many were the work of consecrated religious communities such as might have free standing altars.

My point is, that it is not accurate to characterize ad orientem and ad populum in terms of being pre or post Vatican II practices. Both were practiced many centuries prior in the heart of the Catholic Church.

-Tim-

Free standing altars are of course the norm in the other Rites. I guess the Latin Rite developed an “against the wall” altar because of worship in the catacombs? Also in the Byzantine Rite, at one time Divine Liturgy was done where the people surrounded the Holy Table/Altar, rather than be on one side of it. Also because concelebrating in the Byzantine Rite has always been part of tradition, if there are enough priests and bishops, then some of the clergy would be facing the people as they gather around the Holy Table.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

I think the exception is being touted as a rule, here. Versus populum looks like a performance towards an audience. Ad orientem looks like an offering made on their behalf. Which you would do, if you were a priest killing something as an offering to a god. The vast majority of Roman Catholic diocesan masses were ad-orientem for centuries.

But hey, try to justify the turn-about, if you can. I seriously don’t see how the audience benefit by being able to see the whole operation and it puts a strain on the priest to ‘perform’.

To the OP: some friends of mine recently mentioned cases of Native American indians being easily converted to Catholicism. How? Their grandfather told them, either in person or in a dream, that ‘men in black robes’ would come and teach them true religion. Something like that.

 

[odile53]

On Akwesasne, where I spent my early years, the Mass was in Latin and celebrated ad orientem, same as it was every place else. And all the women wore mantillas, hats, or something else on their heads, just the same as everywhere else. It wasn’t considered a mission church, it was part of (I think) the diocese of Ogdensburg, so it was a regular parish church, not a mission.

Most people prayed the rosary during the Mass (right or wrong, it was what most people did in those days,) again, just the same as everywhere else. It was only post Vatican II that they had a liturgy in the vernacular, which in that area among speakers, is Mohawk, and that translation came from the early days of contact and was translated by the Jesuits. I understand that the Mass is frequently celebrated in Mohawk at Auriesville, or at Blessed Kateri’s shrine.

If you were to ask Catholic natives back in those days what their identity was, they would probably have said, “Indian Catholic,” or more likely, “Catholic Indian,” at least where I was. There weren’t many references to our ethnicity, since we were all of the same nation, but we would usually identify ourselves by our clan. There were also on the reservation “Baptist Indians,” “Presbyterian Indians,” and I think we had a couple of Methodist families as well, but I don’t recall if there was a Methodist church on the rez. There were some Longhouse people, but they pretty much stuck to themselves, even on the reservation.

I’ve mentioned that among my ancestral relatives there were Catholic vocations: A Jesuit great-uncle, a Carmelite great-aunt, and a Sisters of Charity great-aunt. My family has been Catholic (and staunchly so) since about the time of Blessed Kateri. You could not go into my grandma’s house without being greeted by a prominent picture of the Sacred Heart, or eat dinner without feeling the eyes of at least a dozen saints’ and Marian statues staring at you from around the room!

In other words, if you went to a Catholic church that had a native demographic before Vatican II, it was pretty much the same as any other Catholic church, and the liturgy was the same. That fact made it very comfortable for me, once we moved to New York City, to go into Mass in our parish church, because it was exactly (other than the decor, which was more gothic,) the same as church “back home.”

Depending on who you talk with, we were either happy to assimilate, or didn’t get involved at all in the first place. Since the good jobs (with good money) required one to get off the reservation and assimilate, most people in my grandparents’ and parents’ generation did exactly that, the same as European first and second generation immigrants in the late 1800s through early 1900s did. We moved to New York because Dad got a good job there, and we would have been foolish to not take advantage of it. Similarly, a couple of uncles subsequently became ironworkers, and were heavily involved in skyscraper work there (as a matter of fact, one of my uncles was a foreman during the construction of the extant World Trade Center.) One of the big cultural glitches was that at the time there was no particular effort toward keeping the old ways alive with most of the people. Sure, there were abuses in the residential schools, but there were also plenty of graduates of those schools who went on to college and became successful professionals and business people. After the out and out wars against our people stopped, most of us were only too happy to take advantage of better economic opportunities. Since at least the time of first contact, the Iroquois (Haudenossaune) have always been keenly interested in trade and commerce, and in fact based some of their allegiances to European powers based on where they could get a better deal for their goods!

The cultural consciousness movement (the pan-Indian movement I mentioned in an old post) is a phenomenon dating back to the civil rights era of the sixties and caught momentum in the seventies. It’s disheartening to watch some of the vehemence and vitriol that some disaffected natives bring to it, and I just hope and pray that people will be able to get along and respect each other’s point of view.

 

[TrueLight]

Bruce, be careful here.

You sound like Br. Jr.

 

[trickster]

I think the exception is being touted as a rule, here. Versus populum looks like a performance towards an audience. Ad orientem looks like an offering made on their behalf. Which you would do, if you were a priest killing something as an offering to a god. The vast majority of Roman Catholic diocesan masses were ad-orientem for centuries.

But hey, try to justify the turn-about, if you can. I seriously don’t see how the audience benefit by being able to see the whole operation and it puts a strain on the priest to ‘perform’.

To the OP: some friends of mine recently mentioned cases of Native American indians being easily converted to Catholicism. How? Their grandfather told them, either in person or in a dream, that ‘men in black robes’ would come and teach them true religion. Something like that.

Thanks Roger, yeah…my posting was not too concern about the details of the pre Vatican Mass although those distinctions are important…I was making a general commentary that it was just an interesting similarity. Not sure what “OP” is…but there were also “prophecy” in Native American tradition to announced or “warned” depending upon your view of western civiilization and many have taken it from that. Also Aboriginal people are very community, family, group oriented, so baptism where we are welcomed into the church by our family is very normal and not questioned to the degree it is by non-Native peoples who value much more the idea of personal choice and “independence”…so yeah…interesting…thanks for you perspective on that.

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster

 

[trickster]

Odile53 as usual thank you for your posting…it is one of the most realistic postings of our peoples Catholic experience prior to Vatican II and my mom and grandma also speak of the church in those warm terms.

In terms of my absence, I was booted off for 'prostelyzing" which can not be further from the truth but some Catholics are very sensitive about talking about anything outside the box of comfortable Catholicism…and for many Catholics there is an authentic belief that our peoples way was (and is) paganism…and there is nothing you can tell them that will make any difference.

So, like a Canadian, I spent my time in the penalty box… but I’m out now…

Cheerz and Blessings

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster

 

[Mike30]

Odile53 as usual thank you for your posting…it is one of the most realistic postings of our peoples Catholic experience prior to Vatican II and my mom and grandma also speak of the church in those warm terms.

In terms of my absence, I was booted off for 'prostelyzing" which can not be further from the truth but some Catholics are very sensitive about talking about anything outside the box of comfortable Catholicism…and for many Catholics there is an authentic belief that our peoples way was (and is) paganism…and there is nothing you can tell them that will make any difference.

So, like a Canadian, I spent my time in the penalty box… but I’m out now…

Cheerz and Blessings

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster

Booted off where? I’m intrigued.

 

[trickster]

Booted off where? I’m intrigued.

Intrigued indeed! I was booted off for prostelatyzing…had to look it up in the dictionary thought it had something to do with high leather boots and street corners

I think that the moderator and some Catholic answer participants misunderstood my analytical approaches to concepts, words, etc., from a theological and academic perspective and misread what I was saying with respect to 'heretical theological frameworks" as an arguement againts the church…when all I was saying is that no theological (or at least very few) are without their good points…and sometimes these good points re-worked within a more consistent orthodox perspective often can be the lead points in making theological break throughs for some goal or objecive we have in mind.

What I had in mind was a bridging theological framework that would llow indigenous spirituality to be in conversation with Catholic teaching…that was not saying that everything is compatible…but my arguement that more things are compatibel than not in this conversation earned me the boot.

Anyways, being the Canuck I am , I’m out of the penalty box and back in the game…

Thanks for the concern and question…

Bruce Ferguson

 

[Br_Joshua_Seidl]

I have not been on Catholic answers in some time. This is an interesting thread, conversation. I spent about a year and half up in Ft. Covington in the region odie53 talks about. Nice area and folks. Thank you Odie53 for your post. I identify with it well. Nin Annishinabe Ojibweg, waweshkeshi-doodem (I am Chippewah, Deer).
Being Native, or Metis, or non-Native made no difference in how any of us were Catholic in old days or now. Prior to Vat. II, only one Mass for practically all Catholics, Latin, Altar against the wall, etc. Native history of how we became Native Catholics varied a lot. There was a lot of coersion to “win” converts. Not a good history there. Then, yes, there were Elders who dreamed of Makatewikonaweg-minwahjimo (Black Robes with a Good Message).
What I liked about the Old Mass, back when it was the only Mass, was the ceremony. Smells and bells and ritual was cool with me, (Native Traditional or Christian ritual - I love it). I like the New Order of Mass also. Lots of the experimental things, odd or maybe even false interpretations about what new Mass should be I did not care for.
Of Native prophesies concerning the cominng of a new people and the Black Robes: A common theme in many of these dreams was that the new commer would speak of peace, but look what the new commer holds in his hands - that will tell you his real purpose. I think that is still good advice for anyone.
Black Robe, by the way, does not nessisarily mean a Cassoc wearing Christian Missionary. It could mean that. But, in some tribal nations, Black Robe was a special Messenger of any kind.

 

[trickster]

I have not been on Catholic answers in some time. This is an interesting thread, conversation. I spent about a year and half up in Ft. Covington in the region odie53 talks about. Nice area and folks. Thank you Odie53 for your post. I identify with it well. Nin Annishinabe Ojibweg, waweshkeshi-doodem (I am Chippewah, Deer).
Being Native, or Metis, or non-Native made no difference in how any of us were Catholic in old days or now. Prior to Vat. II, only one Mass for practically all Catholics, Latin, Altar against the wall, etc. Native history of how we became Native Catholics varied a lot. There was a lot of coersion to “win” converts. Not a good history there. Then, yes, there were Elders who dreamed of Makatewikonaweg-minwahjimo (Black Robes with a Good Message).
What I liked about the Old Mass, back when it was the only Mass, was the ceremony. Smells and bells and ritual was cool with me, (Native Traditional or Christian ritual - I love it). I like the New Order of Mass also. Lots of the experimental things, odd or maybe even false interpretations about what new Mass should be I did not care for.
Of Native prophesies concerning the cominng of a new people and the Black Robes: A common theme in many of these dreams was that the new commer would speak of peace, but look what the new commer holds in his hands - that will tell you his real purpose. I think that is still good advice for anyone.
Black Robe, by the way, does not nessisarily mean a Cassoc wearing Christian Missionary. It could mean that. But, in some tribal nations, Black Robe was a special Messenger of any kind.

Hello Brother Joshua…I am happy to hear about your experience as an indigenous person in the pre-Vatican II format of the Mass, and life in the church in the 50’s as an example. My grandparents (and I am 53 now) talked warmly about how the church “used to be” but equally trusted the church through the changes that we know today. I think one of the things that people - not just indigenous people value - is the 'high christological" approach where God is “Almighty”, God is way up there and that is where the emphasis was. That in many ways corresponded to the notion of “Kitch” (Great) Manitou (Spirit) as opposed to “manitous” (spirits).

What I find in the Aboriginal community is that as many of our people reject the Church as part of our colonial experience we experience a gap. We have forgotten or never been taught ancient ways of knowing about the Creator, we have stories that are preserved in Oblate historical documents and events, reflections, etc., recorded in the Jesuit Relations. We also have learned and constructed indigenous ceremony from what we have been able to pick up with the survived and living traditions of indigenous peoples around the world… and to a great degree we have both reclaimed and constructed an indigenous spirituality. This is also reminisant of the pan-Indian movement that Odile53 talks about too.

I feel a pain in our community in that gap or void in replacing our Catholicism…as many of our people rejected the human role of the church in colonialization, but not necessarily Jesus, nor Mary nor what we may have retained from Catholic teaching and living. There is a desire with young people and old to reconcile what we have reclaimed with a lived and remembered part of our lives in the Catholic experience including healing from Catholic Residential Schools

That is why I believe that we need to find ways of expressing the continuity of Catholic tradition after Vatican II with the tools of inculturation, venacular languages and other gifts that we now have to work with in post councilor times to help reconcile those realities…and that is my purpose…so I look forward to your thoughts in helping me develop my thinking as an Algonquin Catholic person and one who will be writing about these things…

Trickster (Aboriginal Symbol of Transfomration)
Bruce Ferguson

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

I read in an unorthodox, gnostic book that Jesus was the Great White Brother that American Indians were either waiting for or who actually appeared to them at the time of his Ministry on Earth.

I always thought it would be interesting to work out historically at what time this Brother appeared to Indians (if he did), or to see if there was any co-incidence. But I might have got it mixed up.

 

[Br_Joshua_Seidl]

we have stories that are preserved in Oblate historical documents and events, reflections, etc., recorded in the Jesuit Relations. We also have learned and constructed indigenous ceremony from what we have been able to pick up with the survived and living traditions of indigenous peoples

True. But there is more. Certain theological societies survived such as Midiwin (Anishinabe Medicine Society). Our sacred walk with Grandfather Creator is continous, not simply reconstructed from fragments of history. Indigenous lodges of Traditional wisdom became semi-secret to circumvent persecution. This is much like Early Christians using symbols like the Fish and codes not easily deciphered by Romans. The book of Revelation is heavily coded to foil persecutors, yet maintained the Gospel Message.
We still recieve some rebuff if we inculurate our ways with the Gospel. Example: We often call Gitchi Manitou “Grandfather.” Some missionaries think we must say only “Father.” Grand is the same as great or as Almighty Father. We see Grandparents as a particular source of Wisdom (Sophia - Holy Spirit - Wisdom). Young fathers, entrusted to provide and care for the family, can also be impulsive, lacking wisdom in how they relate. Grand, or Great or Almighty are good prefixes for God the Father.
Sometimes we are told we can not pray or sing in our traditions in a Church unless we provide translations. Yet those demanding the translations or scrips are not in a possition to verify our language and translations. They have not learned the languages of this land, not even after 500 years. We have been asked to come to Church and bring our customs, yet if we do, we are asked to leave. Pope JP II said we do not have to borrow another person’s clothing to enter Church. He also said it is absurd that we are concidered intruders in our own lands (might I substitute “intruders in our own parishes”).
I read where an altar had a deer skin covering. Some people said this was wrong. Maybe it is, or not. Discussion and serious study is needed before they say it is wrong. After all, a Bishop might wear a palladium (sp?) and offer Mass. That is, the Bishop may wear an animal skin (lamb) as part of a traditional RC Catholic tradition.
I have no authority to say yes/no about the use of deer skin altar coverings. However, a priest in war can simply lay a corpal cloth on the bare ground for Mass. I think a proper inquiry is needed before someone says our ways cannot be incluturated, or that the Gospel is not permitted to enter out life and traditions. And our traditions are real and continous, not just reconstructed from whims of a 1960s movement.
Migwetch - Thank you for addressing these concerns. They are complex issues.