Native Americans In Tradititional Catholicsm

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Hi,

I was wondering if I could ask some questions and get some (name removed by moderator)ut from people. I’m a little leery because I don’t want to be taken the wrong way. I mean no disrespect, I mean that honestly.

There is a thread here someplace about residential schools and I probably should never have read it. I’m L’nu from Shubenacadie, NS. Both my mother and father went there. My mom’s experience was very bad. In October she spoke before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. My father is deceased due to suicide. I had a brother and sister who attended, my sister died in attendance and I will absolutely not get into specifics, my brother committed suicide at 13 because of what he went through. My mother adopted me out at 4 but my adopted family maintained contact with her and my community.

I was baptized Catholic. The family that raised me was not Catholic and did not live in Canada. My adopted mother was one of those evidently detested activists who helped indigenous/aboriginal people obtain the rights they deserve. When I would go back to visit my mom and extended family there was always an ensuing argument about my attending mass, my mother generally won out and I stayed home. Thanks to my adopted parents I obtained an education and used it to give back to my community at large. As a young adult I never thought about participating in the Catholic religion and was very angry about what my family and community had been put through. My mom ended up with breast cancer and while taking care of her I saw the scars on her back that she received from her attendance at Shubie. In October I went back home to be with her while she testified before the committee and hearing what she went through made me angry beyond belief. I knew that terrible things happened there, but to her your own mom talk about it for the first time, I can’t even put into words the emotions I felt. I started trying to work through it with the help of a friend who had been a huge help in bringing me through the process of healing over my brother. I was doing pretty okay until the situation that really hit the media mid-November (it had hit in october but at that time it just didn’t seem real until the found the remains). I understand that the situation I am talking about was the result of another church. Anyway, how does one come to the point of forgiveness? The logical part of me realizes that the things that happened were the acts of individuals, not the Church. But when I become emotional about it I just become extremely angry. I’m just not sure what to do. I want to make it clear that I have no desire to practice Catholicism. I have no issues with those that do. I just want to get beyond the anger and, well, at times I think it teeters on hatred, which frightens me.
 
Re: Indian wanna-bes. I have some ideas about that:
  1. Some people are empty and looking for something to fill that hole.
1b. Western religious culture has succumbed to the pseudo cleverness of the pseudo scientist (e.g. ‘The latest thinking is the correct thinking. I have read some books by people who have read books, so now I am wise. If you cannot measure it or produce it on demand, it does not exist’).

1c. Western secular culture destroys anything a man might cling to (family, place, nation, sex, religion) leaving him with nothing except the cash relation.
  1. Some people are culture vultures.
  2. Chicks dig anything strange and spooky.
  3. In the UK you have the Trustafarian ( A white rastafarian who comes from money i.e. has a trust fund). It’s a pose. Could be the same phenomenon.
  4. Water it down and sugar it up and sell it to white kids = profit. Indian culture as one more product.
 
gyspyvanner said:
Hi,

I was wondering if I could ask some questions and get some (name removed by moderator)ut from people. I’m a little leery because I don’t want to be taken the wrong way. I mean no disrespect, I mean that honestly.

There is a thread here someplace about residential schools and I probably should never have read it. I’m L’nu from Shubenacadie, NS. Both my mother and father went there. My mom’s experience was very bad. In October she spoke before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. My father is deceased due to suicide. I had a brother and sister who attended, my sister died in attendance and I will absolutely not get into specifics, my brother committed suicide at 13 because of what he went through. My mother adopted me out at 4 but my adopted family maintained contact with her and my community.

I was baptized Catholic. The family that raised me was not Catholic and did not live in Canada. My adopted mother was one of those evidently detested activists who helped indigenous/aboriginal people obtain the rights they deserve. When I would go back to visit my mom and extended family there was always an ensuing argument about my attending mass, my mother generally won out and I stayed home. Thanks to my adopted parents I obtained an education and used it to give back to my community at large. As a young adult I never thought about participating in the Catholic religion and was very angry about what my family and community had been put through. My mom ended up with breast cancer and while taking care of her I saw the scars on her back that she received from her attendance at Shubie. In October I went back home to be with her while she testified before the committee and hearing what she went through made me angry beyond belief. I knew that terrible things happened there, but to her your own mom talk about it for the first time, I can’t even put into words the emotions I felt. I started trying to work through it with the help of a friend who had been a huge help in bringing me through the process of healing over my brother. I was doing pretty okay until the situation that really hit the media mid-November (it had hit in october but at that time it just didn’t seem real until the found the remains). I understand that the situation I am talking about was the result of another church. Anyway, how does one come to the point of forgiveness? The logical part of me realizes that the things that happened were the acts of individuals, not the Church. But when I become emotional about it I just become extremely angry. I’m just not sure what to do. I want to make it clear that I have no desire to practice Catholicism. I have no issues with those that do. I just want to get beyond the anger and, well, at times I think it teeters on hatred, which frightens me.
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I’m sorry to read about what your family went through, gypsyvanner. You are right that it was individuals responsible for what happened. I’m not sure what to tell you regarding how to get past the anger, and move on to the point of forgiveness. Maybe I can relate a couple of stories that a priest told in his homilies at Mass. They are true stories, and they are from the World War ll era in Germany.

The first one is about a man (I’ve forgotten his name) who was raised Catholic before the war in Germany, but his father was a harsh man who punished the boy severely when he would make even the slightest mistake. When the boy had reached adulthood, he no longer practiced his Catholic faith, and he then went to work in a prison camp in Germany during the war. He treated the Jews there very badly; I don’t recall if he was responsible for the deaths of any of them, but anyway, after the war, he was put in prison himself on account of his brutal treatment of the prisoners during the war. Well, when he was himself a prisoner, he saw that a few of the workers of the prison there were the same people whom he had brutally treated at the prison where he had formerly worked. But instead of being angry and bitter toward him, those Jews whom he had formerly treated with brutality were kind to him. This so moved him that he began to change. He was astonished that these people would be kind to him. He later died in prison, but before his death, he became very religious and began to practice his Catholic faith again.

The second story is about another man, who was not raised Catholic, or Christian at all. This man told a Catholic friend of his that there was nothing that could ever convince him to become a Christian. But then this Catholic friend told him that he would like to show him something that might convince him to change his mind. The Catholic friend took this man to the house of a woman who was a friend of his, a Christian woman. When they arrived at the house, they went inside. The Catholic friend then introduced his friend to the woman, by saying that…“this is the man who is responsible for killling your family during the war.” Indeed, the man had killed her family. But her reaction, rather than being one of horror, wasn’t what the man expected. The woman then went down on her knees and hugged the mans legs. She said…“I forgive you.” The man was so overhwhelmed by this that he did then convert.

I’m not sure if these stories will help. It may possibly be the case, too, that you may feel bad that you escaped from the suffering, and feel a bit guilty because of it. That’s understandable, but if you cannot find it in your heart to forgive, then it will be as if you had also suffered as they did. I would hope that your family would not want this for you.

God bless you!
 
Since only three of my ancestors attended residential schools, and none of those schools were Catholic schools, I can’t imagine the pain that you feel, gypsyvanner, and my heart goes out to you.

For one person, I have no quarrel with activists who help ensure the rights of people of any ethnicity whatsoever. I do, however, have issues with individuals, activist or otherwise, who foment hate, regardless of their affiliation. We already have enough hatred, division and pain in this world, why make more?

I do not know your current spiritual practices, so I do not know what works for you. I have found for me, though, that continuing to re-live feelings about bad experiences, no matter how painful they were, that were propagated by others only serves to hurt me. My peace of mind is affected, my emotional energy is sapped, and my quality of temporal life deteriorates when I stay in that place. The only thing that I have found that works is a decision to forgive, without necessarily re-establishing the relationship, and then pray to have the grace to even try.

Again, I haven’t experienced what your family did, nor the wounds that those things caused you. It is impossible to forget such things, but even the barest beginning of a decision to try to forgive will put one’s mind, spirit and even body in a far better place than the sufferer currently experiences.

Since I don’t know your practices, you may want to consult some member of a faith tradition that you find comforting. My thoughts and prayers are with you in this pain.
 
Denise1957 said:
I’m sorry to read about what your family went through, gypsyvanner. You are right that it was individuals responsible for what happened. I’m not sure what to tell you regarding how to get past the anger, and move on to the point of forgiveness. Maybe I can relate a couple of stories that a priest told in his homilies at Mass. They are true stories, and they are from the World War ll era in Germany.

The first one is about a man (I’ve forgotten his name) who was raised Catholic before the war in Germany, but his father was a harsh man who punished the boy severely when he would make even the slightest mistake. When the boy had reached adulthood, he no longer practiced his Catholic faith, and he then went to work in a prison camp in Germany during the war. He treated the Jews there very badly; I don’t recall if he was responsible for the deaths of any of them, but anyway, after the war, he was put in prison himself on account of his brutal treatment of the prisoners during the war. Well, when he was himself a prisoner, he saw that a few of the workers of the prison there were the same people whom he had brutally treated at the prison where he had formerly worked. But instead of being angry and bitter toward him, those Jews whom he had formerly treated with brutality were kind to him. This so moved him that he began to change. He was astonished that these people would be kind to him. He later died in prison, but before his death, he became very religious and began to practice his Catholic faith again.

The second story is about another man, who was not raised Catholic, or Christian at all. This man told a Catholic friend of his that there was nothing that could ever convince him to become a Christian. But then this Catholic friend told him that he would like to show him something that might convince him to change his mind. The Catholic friend took this man to the house of a woman who was a friend of his, a Christian woman. When they arrived at the house, they went inside. The Catholic friend then introduced his friend to the woman, by saying that…“this is the man who is responsible for killling your family during the war.” Indeed, the man had killed her family. But her reaction, rather than being one of horror, wasn’t what the man expected. The woman then went down on her knees and hugged the mans legs. She said…“I forgive you.” The man was so overhwhelmed by this that he did then convert.

I’m not sure if these stories will help. It may possibly be the case, too, that you may feel bad that you escaped from the suffering, and feel a bit guilty because of it. That’s understandable, but if you cannot find it in your heart to forgive, then it will be as if you had also suffered as they did. I would hope that your family would not want this for you.

God bless you!
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Well said! :)👍

especially: “but if you cannot find it in your heart to forgive, then it will be as if you had also suffered as they did. I would hope that your family would not want this for you.”
 
RogerDeCourcy said:
Re: Indian wanna-bes. I have some ideas about that:
  1. Some people are empty and looking for something to fill that hole.
1b. Western religious culture has succumbed to the pseudo cleverness of the pseudo scientist (e.g. ‘The latest thinking is the correct thinking. I have read some books by people who have read books, so now I am wise. If you cannot measure it or produce it on demand, it does not exist’).

1c. Western secular culture destroys anything a man might cling to (family, place, nation, sex, religion) leaving him with nothing except the cash relation.
  1. Some people are culture vultures.
  2. Chicks dig anything strange and spooky.
  3. In the UK you have the Trustafarian ( A white rastafarian who comes from money i.e. has a trust fund). It’s a pose. Could be the same phenomenon.
  4. Water it down and sugar it up and sell it to white kids = profit. Indian culture as one more product.
Click to expand...
I am not sure what “cultural wannabees” are…I am aboriginal and am a member of a Canadian Indian Reserve (reservation) and we were born and raised Catholics…most aboriginal Catholics I know are not trying to “be anything” except ourselves…and part of ourselves is that we are fully aboriginal and fully catholic, yet the expression of this oneness is experienced as fragmented because we are currenlty (in my opinion) “cutting and pasting” our Aboriginal Catholic experience (i.e. taking aboriginal symbols and attaching them to Catholic teachings and forms) whereas I am saying that if we are truly to reconcile our aboriginal reality with our Catholic experience we MUST encourage an Aboriginal theology that looks at how traditional native spirituality is in conversaiton with Catholic teaching and spiritualty…I don’ thtink it is impossible…and my reality as a Native Catholic is certainly not a syncretic or incompatible reality.

In terms of non-natives learning about aboriginal ways…I am first honoured that they look to our traditions adn I am willing to share…but more importantly…I am excited; about how they take our teachings and internalize it in their own lives…real changes happen when that happens…but I agree that the theft of aboriginal spirituality by new age is something that is not helpful to those who are trying to find an authentic lifestyle…and when our peoples traditions both stolen then marketed is definnitely wrong…if it is done without persmission.
 
trickster said:
I am not sure what “cultural wannabees” are…I am aboriginal and am a member of a Canadian Indian Reserve (reservation) and we were born and raised Catholics…most aboriginal Catholics I know are not trying to “be anything” except ourselves…and part of ourselves is that we are fully aboriginal and fully catholic, yet the expression of this oneness is experienced as fragmented because we are currenlty (in my opinion) “cutting and pasting” our Aboriginal Catholic experience (i.e. taking aboriginal symbols and attaching them to Catholic teachings and forms) whereas I am saying that if we are truly to reconcile our aboriginal reality with our Catholic experience we MUST encourage an Aboriginal theology that looks at how traditional native spirituality is in conversaiton with Catholic teaching and spiritualty…I don’ thtink it is impossible…and my reality as a Native Catholic is certainly not a syncretic or incompatible reality.

In terms of non-natives learning about aboriginal ways…I am first honoured that they look to our traditions adn I am willing to share…but more importantly…I am excited; about how they take our teachings and internalize it in their own lives…real changes happen when that happens…but I agree that the theft of aboriginal spirituality by new age is something that is not helpful to those who are trying to find an authentic lifestyle…and when our peoples traditions both stolen then marketed is definnitely wrong…if it is done without persmission.
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:clapping::clapping:
 
trickster said:
I am not sure what “cultural wannabees” are…I am aboriginal and am a member of a Canadian Indian Reserve (reservation) and we were born and raised Catholics…most aboriginal Catholics I know are not trying to “be anything” except ourselves…and part of ourselves is that we are fully aboriginal and fully catholic, yet the expression of this oneness is experienced as fragmented because we are currenlty (in my opinion) “cutting and pasting” our Aboriginal Catholic experience (i.e. taking aboriginal symbols and attaching them to Catholic teachings and forms) whereas I am saying that if we are truly to reconcile our aboriginal reality with our Catholic experience we MUST encourage an Aboriginal theology that looks at how traditional native spirituality is in conversaiton with Catholic teaching and spiritualty…I don’ thtink it is impossible…and my reality as a Native Catholic is certainly not a syncretic or incompatible reality.

In terms of non-natives learning about aboriginal ways…I am first honoured that they look to our traditions adn I am willing to share…but more importantly…I am excited; about how they take our teachings and internalize it in their own lives…real changes happen when that happens…but I agree that the theft of aboriginal spirituality by new age is something that is not helpful to those who are trying to find an authentic lifestyle…and when our peoples traditions both stolen then marketed is definnitely wrong…if it is done without persmission.
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Amen Brother, and thank you.
 
Thank you Denise, Odile and Kimmy. I really thought I was doing okay with everything until October. It was just too much at once. I also think it was important that I was put in that situation so that I could realize that I hadn’t forgiven and that there is a whole lot more anger and animosity than I thought there was.

I don’t live in or even remotely near my community. It makes it difficult to talk to elders that could help me. I’ve tried conventional therapy but I live in a remote area and when I’ve seen therapists and tell them about my experience they have never dealt with anything comparable. I tried talking to my friends priest but I became extremely worried and anxious that I was making him very uncomfortable and, well, freaked out for lack of a better explanation which I know wasn’t fair on my part because he never once expressed that this was the case. I think that deep down the reason I stopped talking to him was my own fear. I just don’t know what to do because I am sick and tired of living with so much anger, it is not in my character. I am a very forgiving person and I don’t know why I am struggling with this so much. I understand that forgiving does not mean forgetting but I just can’t seem to move beyond this.
 
gyspyvanner said:
Thank you Denise, Odile and Kimmy. I really thought I was doing okay with everything until October. It was just too much at once. I also think it was important that I was put in that situation so that I could realize that I hadn’t forgiven and that there is a whole lot more anger and animosity than I thought there was.

I don’t live in or even remotely near my community. It makes it difficult to talk to elders that could help me. I’ve tried conventional therapy but I live in a remote area and when I’ve seen therapists and tell them about my experience they have never dealt with anything comparable. I tried talking to my friends priest but I became extremely worried and anxious that I was making him very uncomfortable and, well, freaked out for lack of a better explanation which I know wasn’t fair on my part because he never once expressed that this was the case. I think that deep down the reason I stopped talking to him was my own fear. I just don’t know what to do because I am sick and tired of living with so much anger, it is not in my character. I am a very forgiving person and I don’t know why I am struggling with this so much. I understand that forgiving does not mean forgetting but I just can’t seem to move beyond this.
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Hi Gypsyvanner,

It’s understandable that you have anger and animosity, given the situation. I think that you were very brave to go and speak with the priest. Perhaps someday, you can do so again.

I hope that others can offer better advice than I can, but all I can really think of is to offer that you can try giving all of it up to God to deal with. Perhaps you have tried this already. But it seems to be more than you can cope with alone. You might consider asking the Blessed Mother for help. She is a kind and loving mother. Also, you can ask for the prayers and intercession of Blessed Catherine (Kateri) Tekakwitha. I’ve asked for her prayers and intercession many times, and have received help. She cared very much for those in her community who were suffering. I can see that you are a kind-hearted person, and I hope and pray that you find some peace. God bless!
 
@ Bruce–the cultural wannabes I was referring to are the nonnatives who try to be native. I do not mean any disrespect, it’s simply a little jarring to me when I hear someone who is nonnative try to imitate native references and practices, sometimes without knowing what is meant by that.

I’m not quite sure how I feel about those who would co-opt elements of our culture. I feel bad for them that they do not get what they need from their own identities, while I’m a little flattered that they would think that the aboriginal cultures’ elements can fill that void. As a Catholic Christian I know that the only thing that can fill the hole in the soul is a close relationship with Our Lord and Brother Jesus Christ, and the Holy Trinity. I sometimes feel sad when I see some of the nonnatives, who were raised as Christians, abandon their faith to try to co-opt the spirituality of our early cultures. They may have some superficial changes for the better, as I doubt one with deep faith in Christ would abandon Him, but one with weak faith might do so for something that appears simple and nondemanding to the noncognoscenti.

I don’t think that any one culture has a monopoly on spirituality, in other words, and I think that all of the great cultures of the world have much to teach each other and much to learn from each other. As far as the wannabes are concerned, I hope that eventually they find what they are looking for.

Years ago I got a chance to go to Europe on vacation with an old friend of mine from up North. One of our stops was in Weisbaden, Germany. Turns out that the Germans just love Native Americans, especially the Eastern woodlands Indians. My friend and I had gone to an Oktoberfest, and had even bought dirndls for the occasion. After a day of drinking the most excellent German beer and doing traditional folk dances, we sloshed happily back to our hotel. We spotted a sign in the lobby that there was a traditional Iroquois powwow reenactment at such and such a place that weekend. Still a little stewed, we went, still wearing our trachten clothes with our very black hair in twin braids. We got to the powwow to see some very traditional looking (blonde, blue eyed) Germans in very traditional replica regalia doing some very traditional social circle dances. When the Germans realized we were the real McCoy, they stopped and insisted that we tell them stories, our traditional stories. I think Becky and I were being cultural tourists; we were just enjoying a fun day of German dancing, food, and mostly beer. I hope the Germans were just enjoying themselves. And oh, yeah, their regalia was nicer than ours is! My concern is with the folks who honestly start believing that they are native, or can become native.

On a happier note, the Sacred Heart website is absolutely beautiful. Thank Daizie for me as well.
 
odile53 said:
@ Bruce–the cultural wannabes I was referring to are the nonnatives who try to be native. I do not mean any disrespect, it’s simply a little jarring to me when I hear someone who is nonnative try to imitate native references and practices, sometimes without knowing what is meant by that.

I’m not quite sure how I feel about those who would co-opt elements of our culture. I feel bad for them that they do not get what they need from their own identities, while I’m a little flattered that they would think that the aboriginal cultures’ elements can fill that void. As a Catholic Christian I know that the only thing that can fill the hole in the soul is a close relationship with Our Lord and Brother Jesus Christ, and the Holy Trinity. I sometimes feel sad when I see some of the nonnatives, who were raised as Christians, abandon their faith to try to co-opt the spirituality of our early cultures. They may have some superficial changes for the better, as I doubt one with deep faith in Christ would abandon Him, but one with weak faith might do so for something that appears simple and nondemanding to the noncognoscenti.

I don’t think that any one culture has a monopoly on spirituality, in other words, and I think that all of the great cultures of the world have much to teach each other and much to learn from each other. As far as the wannabes are concerned, I hope that eventually they find what they are looking for.

Years ago I got a chance to go to Europe on vacation with an old friend of mine from up North. One of our stops was in Weisbaden, Germany. Turns out that the Germans just love Native Americans, especially the Eastern woodlands Indians. My friend and I had gone to an Oktoberfest, and had even bought dirndls for the occasion. After a day of drinking the most excellent German beer and doing traditional folk dances, we sloshed happily back to our hotel. We spotted a sign in the lobby that there was a traditional Iroquois powwow reenactment at such and such a place that weekend. Still a little stewed, we went, still wearing our trachten clothes with our very black hair in twin braids. We got to the powwow to see some very traditional looking (blonde, blue eyed) Germans in very traditional replica regalia doing some very traditional social circle dances. When the Germans realized we were the real McCoy, they stopped and insisted that we tell them stories, our traditional stories. I think Becky and I were being cultural tourists; we were just enjoying a fun day of German dancing, food, and mostly beer. I hope the Germans were just enjoying themselves. And oh, yeah, their regalia was nicer than ours is! My concern is with the folks who honestly start believing that they are native, or can become native.

On a happier note, the Sacred Heart website is absolutely beautiful. Thank Daizie for me as well.
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Hi Odile53, don’t think you and I are too far from each other’s thinking…I am borrowing my sisters computer now and feeling guilty cause it is Christmas day and I am getting drawed into responsding to Catholic Answer postings when I should be spending quality time with my sister…we are the only ones left in our family these days…so I wish you a Merry Christmas and A good New Year…I will be putting up a website soon and so you will be able to actually see me on site…and get to know me a bit better and I hope to get to know you a more in 2012…l

Cheers and Blessings

Bruce Ferguson
 
Bruce:

I happen to know a priest who currently serves as parochial vicar to a Native American parish on Pala Reservation in Southern California. Fr. H.M is a a member of Society of the Divine Word [SVD Missionaries]. I met him last year when he was assigned to the SVD Western Provincial headquarters.

He is currently assigned to Mission San Antonio de Pala, which was established nearly 200 years ago, specifically to serve the local Native American community.

missionsanantonio.org/Home_Page.php
 
mick321 said:
Bruce:

I happen to know a priest who currently serves as parochial vicar to a Native American parish on Pala Reservation in Southern California. Fr. H.M is a a member of Society of the Divine Word [SVD Missionaries]. I met him last year when he was assigned to the SVD Western Provincial headquarters.

He is currently assigned to Mission San Antonio de Pala, which was established nearly 200 years ago, specifically to serve the local Native American community.

missionsanantonio.org/Home_Page.php
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Thank you so much for that link…took a quick look at it and it looks very interesting…

Blessings

Bruce Ferguson
 
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