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rev_kevin
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You also have a blessed Christmas. God bless.
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BlueShadow123
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Why is it that whenever you see a picture of people of the bible or angels, they look like ‘white’ people. Why? that is so inaccurate.
You do realize they are from the middle east and were probably darker skinned with black hair.
Not your typical ‘white’ person look.
Jesus probably looked close to this:
religioustolerance.org/jesusface.jpg
The same goes for Mary and many others in the bible.
As for Adam and Eve: Scientists think that the garden of eden is now the tigris and euphraties rivers, so if they are living in Africa, it would make sense for God to make them in a dark skin tone.
You do realize they are from the middle east and were probably darker skinned with black hair.
Not your typical ‘white’ person look.
Jesus probably looked close to this:
religioustolerance.org/jesusface.jpg
The same goes for Mary and many others in the bible.
As for Adam and Eve: Scientists think that the garden of eden is now the tigris and euphraties rivers, so if they are living in Africa, it would make sense for God to make them in a dark skin tone.
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patrick457
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Well, first of all, I would say this (and I’m Catholic!): the Stations of the Cross is not a detailed, accurate log of every step Jesus took while on the way to Golgotha. After all, it was a devotion that gradually developed a few centuries after the fact. Heck, we don’t even know whether the Via Dolorosa in modern Jerusalem is the correct street or how many times Jesus fell (whether He fell three or seven times) or whether Veronica was actually present (it was only in the Late Middle Ages that Veronica became associated with the Passion)! The concern of the Stations of the Cross is not accuracy in history, I believe you know that.Who have I condemned? Nobody. Have you read the Bible on the birth of Jesus? Where does it say the wise men were there directly after his birth? They weren’t it was the shepherds. If you read history you will find out that most of the animals were kept in caves and the manger was carved in the walls of the caves. I’m not blazing any new trails here, that has already been done by others. I never said it was necessary for the salvation of our souls for it to be accurate. We seem to know every accurate step Jesus took while on his way to be crucified, ie, the stations of the cross. But don’t know the accuracy about his birth.
As for the Wise Men: I believe the whole confusion may rise if you don’t know about how people produced works of art back in say, Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages. In medieval art, it was actually a common convention to conflate separate scenes into one picture. So you have images of the crucifixion where Jesus is being speared in the side while being offered ‘vinegar’, or more correctly, sour wine or posca (something that happened while He was still alive according to the Gospels) while the soldiers gamble for His clothes and break the legs of the two criminals and while the dead rise out of their tombs. One curious case in England even shows Jesus already being stabbed and offered His last drink while still being nailed to the cross!
In some depictions, you even have the carrying of the cross on the same frame as the Crucifixion (so what, there’s like, two Jesuses now?
). At the most extreme, ALL the events of the Passion of Jesus are all conflated together into one panel! I believe this is the similar case here: the magi being shown together with the shepherds and angels is a carryover of an old artistic convention that showed separate but quite related events in one scene. Sure, some may take it the wrong way nowadays (now that we emphasize treating individual scenes separately), but that is where explaining things come in.BTW, I am encouraging you to visit my other thread…I too am interested in historical accuracy and we can talk about it there a lot.
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patrick457
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Well, if you believe in the Shroud of Turin, then this is how the Guy there looked like. Quite similar to that link you posted of a reconstruction of a 1st-century Jewish man, if you ask me.
Well, I did hear that mankind’s original skin color would have been pretty dark.
BTW, I just dug a description of Middle-Eastern skin color up something recently:
As a rule [the Mediterranean’s] skin is some shade of white, from pink or peaches-and-cream to a light brown. Skin color should always be taken on some unexposed part of the body. Among Middle Easterners this is simple, because they cover as much of the body as is consistent with their work. The exposed skin color may be a dark brown, while the skin of the underarm is ten shades lighter. (The sun shines brightly in the Middle East.) While fair-skinned people are to be seen, they live chiefly in shaded bazaars and government offices, whence they rarely emerge into the dazzling light of day.
The Mediterranean’s hair is usually black or dark brown, while his whiskers may reveal a few strands of red or even blond. Blond hair may be seen, but it is the exception. Its presence does not requite some invasion of Goths or Scyths or the miscegenation of Crusaders. One of the characteristics of the Mediterranean race is a minority tendency toward blondism. This is seen much more frequently in the eyes, since blond hair, which appears in infants, usually darkens as the hair coarsens with age.
Among Mediterraneans every shade of eye color appears. Coal black is exceptional, a dark or medium brown most common. Nearly a fourth of any sample, however, will have blue, gray, or green eyes, usually mixed with brown in the iris pattern. Eyes do not darken with age; hence the greater prevalence of light eyes rather than blond hair among the adult. Like pink skin, blue eyes and blond hair appear most often among people whose work or social status keeps them indoors. Descendants of the Prophet, courtiers, and wealthy merchants are more often blond than farmers or camel drivers. In my opinion this does not mean that blonds are in any way superior to brunets, in the Middle East or elsewhere. It rather indicates that in a hot, brightly illuminated environment blonds are at a disadvantage when out of doors. Those who can manage it gravitate toward work in shaded quarters; furthermore the natural selection that may operate against them in the field and desert would fail to limit their increase in the shade. Middle Eastern urban civilization may thus have produced artificially an environment comparable to the Baltic fog, where the Nordic emerged.
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BlueShadow123
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I’m sure they were dark skinned and had darker hair.Well, if you believe in the Shroud of Turin, then this is how the Guy there looked like. Quite similar to that link you posted of a reconstruction of a 1st-century Jewish man, if you ask me.
Well, I did hear that mankind’s original skin color would have been pretty dark.
BTW, I just dug a description of Middle-Eastern skin color up something recently:
As a rule [the Mediterranean’s] skin is some shade of white, from pink or peaches-and-cream to a light brown. Skin color should always be taken on some unexposed part of the body. Among Middle Easterners this is simple, because they cover as much of the body as is consistent with their work. The exposed skin color may be a dark brown, while the skin of the underarm is ten shades lighter. (The sun shines brightly in the Middle East.) While fair-skinned people are to be seen, they live chiefly in shaded bazaars and government offices, whence they rarely emerge into the dazzling light of day.
The Mediterranean’s hair is usually black or dark brown, while his whiskers may reveal a few strands of red or even blond. Blond hair may be seen, but it is the exception. Its presence does not requite some invasion of Goths or Scyths or the miscegenation of Crusaders. One of the characteristics of the Mediterranean race is a minority tendency toward blondism. This is seen much more frequently in the eyes, since blond hair, which appears in infants, usually darkens as the hair coarsens with age.
Among Mediterraneans every shade of eye color appears. Coal black is exceptional, a dark or medium brown most common. Nearly a fourth of any sample, however, will have blue, gray, or green eyes, usually mixed with brown in the iris pattern. Eyes do not darken with age; hence the greater prevalence of light eyes rather than blond hair among the adult. Like pink skin, blue eyes and blond hair appear most often among people whose work or social status keeps them indoors. Descendants of the Prophet, courtiers, and wealthy merchants are more often blond than farmers or camel drivers. In my opinion this does not mean that blonds are in any way superior to brunets, in the Middle East or elsewhere. It rather indicates that in a hot, brightly illuminated environment blonds are at a disadvantage when out of doors. Those who can manage it gravitate toward work in shaded quarters; furthermore the natural selection that may operate against them in the field and desert would fail to limit their increase in the shade. Middle Eastern urban civilization may thus have produced artificially an environment comparable to the Baltic fog, where the Nordic emerged.
Jesus also had the Jewish hair
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patrick457
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All that thanks to the hot Mediterranean sun.
Well, Jesus and His ilk would probably somewhat relate to these folks:
http://www.lifeintheholyland.com/images/Village_carpenter,_mat05292.jpg
http://www.lifeintheholyland.com/images/184_Fisherman_Making_Nets.jpg
http://images.imagestate.com/Watermark/1631682.jpg
And just to note, ‘Jewish hair’ is a tricky thing to define, since nowadays Judaism can include people from any racial or ethnic background: which brings us to the question “who is a Jew?” Though yes, one possibility was black or dark hair that was probably curly.
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BlueShadow123
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I’m talking about with the curls down the side of their head and the beard. But Jesus might have looked something like the people in the pictures you posted. I assume he looked like the one I posted too.
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KathleenGee
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He could have been even darker and even with curlier hair…my friend has a book from Palestine in the 1920’s…similar pictures…THanks!
There is a book out on ‘Jewish Identity’…and it ended up that those who have faith in Christ are the Hebrews…they were the devout Jews who kept their faith in God.
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Rev Kevin,
Darn it…so you had a bad experience with some catechesis in Catholic school…I had good catholic catechesis…but really scary nuns that made me close up to the life of the Church for a long time…you can’t wash Catholic baptism off of you…IN fact, baptism is a Catholic rite…and Protestants don’t realize their baptisms using our rite are actually having people baptized into the Catholic Church.
So Richard, if you come back, and I hope you do…after all, you always come back here…all you will have to do is recite in faith the Creed, and then prepare for the sacraments and then you are back home.
There is a book out on ‘Jewish Identity’…and it ended up that those who have faith in Christ are the Hebrews…they were the devout Jews who kept their faith in God.
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Rev Kevin,
Darn it…so you had a bad experience with some catechesis in Catholic school…I had good catholic catechesis…but really scary nuns that made me close up to the life of the Church for a long time…you can’t wash Catholic baptism off of you…IN fact, baptism is a Catholic rite…and Protestants don’t realize their baptisms using our rite are actually having people baptized into the Catholic Church.
So Richard, if you come back, and I hope you do…after all, you always come back here…all you will have to do is recite in faith the Creed, and then prepare for the sacraments and then you are back home.
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BlueShadow123
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Basically I mentioned it because the pictures we see of him, Mary, and others in the bible are probably really inaccurate (looks wise), especially Adam and eve.
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patrick457
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Ah, okay. That’s actually called the payot (Hebrew pe’at). There are actually different styles of payot among different Jews.I’m talking about with the curls down the side of their head and the beard. But Jesus might have looked something like the people in the pictures you posted. I assume he looked like the one I posted too.
Also, I need to mention that the whole origins of the payot, despite its being connected with Leviticus 19:27, are up for debate and it is actually unclear whether a similar custom existed during the time of Jesus.
And BTW, Jews in Palestine at the time of Jesus seems to have wore clothes that were not much different from what other peoples in the Roman Empire were wearing at the time. It seems that woolen garments were more common than linen, and men often preferred to wear plain undyed (i.e. white/off-white) garments, or at least, those dyed in more lighter colors (say, saffron). Colored clothes were seen more as the domain of women, and even then, richly colored clothing was probably a luxury that the lower-class did not have. Roman influence on Jewish garments can be felt in the presence of the clavi (colored parallel stripes) running down the length of tunics (haluq), more often made of two pieces of rectangular fabric sewn together, leaving openings for the head and arms. The tunic was tucked with a belt.
Over this they wore rectangular cloaks (tallit or me’il), which sometimes had designs near the corners in the form of gamma-shaped or notched bands, also in a contrasting color. More devout and observant people would have the tzitzit or the tassels on the four corners of their mantles, in obedience to the commandment (Jesus seemed to have had these as well). There was no ‘prayer shawl’ as we know it today; this modern ceremonial garment is actually a descendant of the cloak that people wrapped or draped as overgarments. Some people might wear some sort of headcovering as a protection against the elements, and others might have some sort of footwear, say sandals.
So going on about historical accuracy, not only are the late medieval and Renaissance depictions of Biblical personages in high-quality long flowing robes of many colors, but those recent depictions showing Biblical Israelites/Jews dressed somewhat like Arabs (with kaftan or thobe-ish garments or even some sort of fez or taqiyah or Arab-style keffiyeh) is incorrect as well!
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JustaServant
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Helpful how?
What is the end result here? You’re being very vaugue.
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JustaServant
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Probably. I know much of the modern story comes from Lew Wallace.
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utah_rose
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We don’t need to know what they looked like–the Bible isn’t HISTORICAL. The important part if that they were the symbols that introduced Jesus to the Gentiles.
You seem really worried that the children are being taught the wrong thing (surroundings, etc._.
I have one question for you: were you taught about the Nativity as we were and then didn’t believe when you were older because it was “historically inaccurate”? I doubt that many of us that were taught that “disbelieve” because of this.
Now, Santa Claus is another thing altogether. He was actually patterned over St. Nicholas who really lived at one time and helped the poor. But he is “historically portrayed now” as one who has reindeer and elves that make toys. Which is the worst story to grow up with? Bet lots of kids, particularly poor, are disappointed there is no such thing when they wake up Christmas morning, but they should know that Jesus was born on Christmas Day whether it was in a cave or stable. Enough said.
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KathleenGee
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The Catholic Church has the biggest library in the world to share …open to the public …that gives context to its teachings in every generation. Our application of faith always represents the particular conditions of times that we live in…and also explains why the small traditions change…
RevKevin,
I woke up this am and actually meant your name and not Richard’s…in hoping you return to the Catholic Church. You are always here, and you repeat the same topics,…something is cooking around here.
And it is not just holiday treats.
RevKevin,
I woke up this am and actually meant your name and not Richard’s…in hoping you return to the Catholic Church. You are always here, and you repeat the same topics,…something is cooking around here.
And it is not just holiday treats.
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Faith1960
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I have TWO “inaccurate” Nativities.I’m not, as you say, kicking up a stink about Noah’s ark because thats not what I wan’t to discuss right now.
Well I’m glad that your parents have a cave-like structure.Now you ask me what makes me think all Nativity scenes are inaccurate, if you don’t have shepherds there then if would be accurate if you just want to show Mary, Joseph and Jesus. It would be accurate if you want to show Mary, Joseph, Jesus and the shepherds. It would not be accurate if you show Mary, Joseph, Jesus and the wise men. for the wise men showed up a year or 2 later.
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jmcrae
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If you don’t add them in until Epiphany (which is what Catholics do), the people will understand that there was a period of time between the birth of Jesus and the arrival of the Wise Men.
How do you do your Nativity Scene? Because at our house, we always read the Bible stories that go with each of the figures, as we are placing them into the scene. Everyone present knows what the Bible says about it.
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patrick457
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In one sense, yes, Lew Wallace did seem to influence our imaginations, but he himself was merely influenced by what came before him.
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KathleenGee
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Well, considering we celebrate the Epiphany of Christ January 6, there are alot of folks who then put out statuary of the 3 Wise Men at their Nativity scene after Christmas.
Some people just put up the whole works at Christmas time…Nativity and 3 wisemen before Christmas…
Will God forgive such a thing?
Some people just put up the whole works at Christmas time…Nativity and 3 wisemen before Christmas…
Will God forgive such a thing?
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jmcrae
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Well - I hope so, since I have a cousin who keeps hers out all year long.
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patrick457
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Dunno if ALL Catholics do that…I mean, we’ve once had a creche (back in the Philippines this was) and all the figures are glued in to the stable so there’s no way of taking them out. Oddly enough, our creche did have the magi, but no shepherds.
My memory may be getting a bit clunky here, but if I remember correctly, there’s no St. Joseph as well! Only Mary, the Infant, the magi, and an animal or two.
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