Natural Family Planning Classes- too expensive!

[whatevergirl]

*moon, your zeal for this is admirable! Where were you when my husband and I had a contraceptive mindset? We no longer do, and in part, I claim ignorance. (can only do that for so long) The reality is that people who have contraceptive mindsets are not always selfish people, or material people. Contraception breeds fear. Fear of the unknown. And while I always believed and trusted in God in all things, I didn’t always trust Him with my fertility. And that’s a sad regret, I have.

But, what I’d like to say is that individual parishes don’t do enough I think, in helping folks like your sister/BIL to understand the ramifications of their actions, and the ‘why’ behind Church teaching. I think that since this is such an important tenet of our faith, the parishes should be doing all they can do drive the points that YOU make, home. Ignorance is not an excuse, but if the parishes aren’t informing Catholics, who will? You know?

I am excited, because the parish we belong to now, will be holding private one on one sessions to teach NFP. An ob/gyn will be there, and it’s free. I think that more parishes should be proactive like this.

Anyways, just my two cents. Pray for your family, they need those prayers …and hopefully, they will be enlightened to the Truth of this. Coming to CAF a few years ago, enlightened my husband and me, no one is a lost cause! *

 

[Jennifer_J]

Regarding Grave/Serious/Just:

usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/seriousq.shtml

<<“Grave and Serious”]
Paul VI in his encyclical, Humanae vitae (1968), while condemning the use of all contraceptive methods for even grave (gravia) reasons declared licit the recourse to the infertile periods if the spouses have good (just and seria) reasons to postpone even indefinitely another pregnancy. (HV, nos. 16, 10). The language here is similar to Gaudium et Spes no. 10. But first those spouses are commended who, with prudent deliberation and generosity, choose to accept a large family. The spouses are to consider their responsibilities towards God, themselves, the family, and human society. Each of these factors may be taken into account in right order in determining “serious and just reasons.”

In other words the spouses are to discern together first, what is God’s plan for their family here and now, then, their own physical and emotional resources for accepting another child, the needs of other family members, and lastly the good of the human society in which they live. The pope gives special encouragement to scientists to perfect the natural methods, (HV, no. 24) declaring that the discipline of chastity exercised in periodic continence enhances married life provided the spouses value the true blessings of family. (HV, no. 21) >>

Additionally:
hprweb.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69:humanae-vitae-grave-motives-to-use-a-good-translation&catid=35lder-articles&Itemid=54

Something further to read–Is NFP a heresy?
rtforum.org/lt/lt103.html

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Maybe I am a little bitter, but I think this mentality comes directly from having a contraceptive mentality.

Correct me if my math is wrong. Your five children only have 2 cousins? Because you only had 1 sister? Did your wife not have any siblings?

This mentality you seem to be excoriating seems to have been passed down from your parents on both sides.

They only had one or two children?

Well, don’t blame the Church for not being able to counteract the standards you were raised in in your own homes.

If you’re bitter about that, be bitter first toward parents who handed down such lopsided standards.

Or maybe they had grave reasons for only having 2 children and it’s not for a stranger like me to judge?

Well, then don’t judge either.

By the way, there is something very reassuring for a wife to observe her husband be able to show sexual self control in her presence. Helps her trust him when she’s not around. And sometimes it’s nice to be shown affection that isn’t going to end up in the bedroom. Affection for its own sake. NFP couples have to communicate often about their fertility, their readiness this month for a child… it does foster virtue that may be missing in a couple that never abstains.

 

[moon1234]

Very few women, and very few families have the resources the Duggars do to have that many children.

St. Catherine of Sienna was the youngest of 25 children
St. Therese (the Little Flower) was the youngest of 9 children
Johann Sebastian Bach: 20 children

Fatima Children:
Lucia (the seventh of seven children)
Francisco (the eighth of nine children)
Jacinta (the ninth of nine children).

Think our Lady was trying to say something there? Did she appear to the first born? No she appeared to the last or next to last child in each family. These families were VERY poor, no car, no tv, no radio, small house, no air conditioning. God always promised that he would provide for us if we are faithful to him and trust him. That has always been true for my family.

A mother of many children, who was about to be a mother once more, came to Ars (the place where St. John Vianney resided) to seek courage from him. She said to him, “Oh, I am so advanced in years, Father!” St. John Vianney responded: “Be comforted my child; if you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it!”

 

[moon1234]

Correct me if my math is wrong. Your five children only have 2 cousins? Because you only had 1 sister? Did your wife not have any siblings?

My wife has siblings, one has a single child and that is all her husband will permit. He got snipped (not catholic). The rest of my wife’s siblings are too young to have children before my children will be too old to play with them on a peer level.

I have one sister. My mother could not have children anymore after she had my sister. She to this day will not tell me why.

My aunts and uncles though all had between 5-8 children. It was great fun on Christmas and Easter. The house was always busy with the smells of food, the laughter of family and just bubbling with fun. My children will not be able to experience that because my sister and my wife’s siblings seem to despise children as a hard burden. That was not the way their parents viewed them.

I blame modern society that constantly tells people that they need things rather than family. The modern contraceptive mentality only feeds this belief.

 

[moon1234]

Regarding Grave/Serious/Just:
QUOTE]

Jennifer,

You will find in many, many traditional circles there are many, myself included, who have deep problems with both Gaudem Et Spes and Humanae vitae. There is still much debate about the value of these documents.

The Vatican has even gone so far as to allow discussion about their validity/continuity of theology in the discussions with the SSPX. Do a little googling and you will find numerous articles about the theological rabbit holes that these documents went down.

It is not up to people to decide how many children God’s want to send. That is up to God. When you start guessing what God wants for you, you reject God’s work through you.

Most Catholics today have no clue what constitutes a grave reason. Many say they don’t have enough money, but they fail to recognize that they could sell their expensive home and move to a different, cheaper area. Just one example.

You will find that the people who speak the loudest about being able to avoid children using NFP also have the smallest families. They want to justify somehow their use of NFP in a contraceptive way when there is no grave reason. Money is seldom if ever a grave reason unless you live in somolia, etc. It is almost impossible to starve in this country if you really want to eat.

Health is one of the few areas where I could see a grave reason in the West. If you risk death somehow by getting pregnant then that is a grave reason. Not being able to send little Johnny to Harvard is not a valid reason. Wanting to “wait awhile” is not a valid reason. “We don’t really want another child right now” is not a valid reason. Yet these are the very reasons many people give for their use of NFP. It is a contraceptive mentality.

This is what I meant before by looking at current documents thru the lens of all of the teachings of the past. When you only look at the present documents you have no idea where there came from and what the traditional teaching of the church is. So you read them at face value and think “Well this sounds great, I will discern what God wants for me and then just fly with that. I am not ready for kids right now so…we will just put off having them.” How very selfish.

I am not saying you are personally this way, but that is the mindset that many people arrive at when they read only documents that come from Vatican II and later. So many ideas in just these two documents that border on complete break with traditional Catholic teaching. Be very careful of anyone teaching you something about the faith who can not explain what the previous teachings and beliefs of the church are and how these documents are a “hermenutic of continuity”.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I came from a big family. I did not have as many children. Life intervened in ways that are not your business and kept me from having more. I know people who would fit your standard of condemnation: Big house, big cars, good school… only one or two children. You do not know that the woman doesn’t cry every time she has her cycle because she hoped against hope this would be the month. Or the couple that had complications after the birth of a second or third child and having more would be inadvisable. It really isn’t your business why your mother didn’t have more. Unless it’s a malady you might inherit.

Women who “don’t feel like having one right now” might have reasons you don’t understand. Maybe she suffered debilitating morning sickness or blood clots last time around or maybe she is still recovering from the last child and it’s taking her a while to get up the nerve to go back into that physical juggernaut of pregnancy. Maybe someone has family members and situations that need to be resolved before they have another child, or depression issues, or a pending move where it wouldn’t be good for them to be moving as a baby is due. The fact is, every couple has reasons. Not all of them are good for YOU.

Sometimes large families get kind of an inverted pride in the sheer number of kids they produce and I suggest you be very careful. Smugness is not attractive. It’s not a contest. Contraception did not cause the anti-child materialistic view of many. It was a solution to a growing worldview of materialism. Just be careful when you count children and come to conclusions. Not everyone will tell you the reason they only have two or three. Or one.

Sometimes it’s a very painful story and it’s between them and God. Sometimes that couple that says “Oh, we’re waiting” really is trying and growing desperate. But they’re not going to tell you why they’ve been married two years and have no children.

Tread softly.

 

[moon1234]

I came from a big family. I did not have as many children. Life intervened in ways that are not your business and kept me from having more. I know people who would fit your standard of condemnation: Big house, big cars, good school… only one or two children. You do not know that the woman doesn’t cry every time she has her cycle because she hoped against hope this would be the month. Or the couple that had complications after the birth of a second or third child and having more would be inadvisable. It really isn’t your business why your mother didn’t have more. Unless it’s a malady you might inherit.

Women who “don’t feel like having one right now” might have reasons you don’t understand. Maybe she suffered debilitating morning sickness or blood clots last time around or maybe she is still recovering from the last child and it’s taking her a while to get up the nerve to go back into that physical juggernaut of pregnancy. Maybe someone has family members and situations that need to be resolved before they have another child, or depression issues, or a pending move where it wouldn’t be good for them to be moving as a baby is due. The fact is, every couple has reasons. Not all of them are good for YOU.

Sometimes large families get kind of an inverted pride in the sheer number of kids they produce and I suggest you be very careful. Smugness is not attractive. It’s not a contest. Contraception did not cause the anti-child materialistic view of many. It was a solution to a growing worldview of materialism. Just be careful when you count children and come to conclusions. Not everyone will tell you the reason they only have two or three. Or one.

Sometimes it’s a very painful story and it’s between them and God. Sometimes that couple that says “Oh, we’re waiting” really is trying and growing desperate. But they’re not going to tell you why they’ve been married two years and have no children.

Tread softly.

The people I speak of I know very well. They are not the people that have fertility problems. They boldly proclaim they don’t want children now. They don’t want the hassel or expense. It is hard to remain friends with them because I see it as breaking their vows.

I never outright condemn people because they may be successful. What I have a hard time with is people, many newly married, who proudly proclaim that they are going to wait until they are ready to have children. Or that they will have children at their own pace.

I feel for people who have a hard time conceiving or that may have miscarraiges. That can be very hard. My wife has had three miscarraiges. Of those babies had names picked out and our kids still remember their names.

 

[Em_in_FL]

St. Catherine of Sienna was the youngest of 25 children
St. Therese (the Little Flower) was the youngest of 9 children
Johann Sebastian Bach: 20 children

Fatima Children:
Lucia (the seventh of seven children)
Francisco (the eighth of nine children)
Jacinta (the ninth of nine children).

But then you can also find many Saints that were only-children, or who just had one or two siblings… should we question their parents and judge those situations? I’m pretty sure parents knew how babies were MADE - so was it that their parents abstained, or were infertile? We really don’t know.

We don’t know how many married couples in all the centuries past who used abstinence to avoid pregnancies - for whatever “just” or “unjust” reason they may have had. And just because a couple abstained to avoid children for a “just” reason, did they in turn do harm to their marriage by not having that full gift of the “unitive” aspect whatsoever?

These are tough and complicated questions… and maybe we’ll never know… but it’s not a numbers game - in any direction (big or small)… and it should never be viewed as that.

 

[moon1234]

But then you can also find many Saints that were only-children, or who just had one or two siblings… should we question their parents and judge those situations? I’m pretty sure parents knew how babies were MADE - so was it that their parents abstained, or were infertile? We really don’t know.

We don’t know how many married couples in all the centuries past who used abstinence to avoid pregnancies - for whatever “just” or “unjust” reason they may have had. And just because a couple abstained to avoid children for a “just” reason, did they in turn do harm to their marriage by not having that full gift of the “unitive” aspect whatsoever?

These are tough and complicated questions… and maybe we’ll never know… but it’s not a numbers game - in any direction (big or small)… and it should never be viewed as that.

The point was that these families were open to all of the children that God intended to send to them. They did not selfishly say “Man we have 14 kids, we need to stop this. We live in a dirt house, are poor, etc.”

 

[Em_in_FL]

The people I speak of I know very well. They are not the people that have fertility problems. They boldly proclaim they don’t want children now. They don’t want the hassel or expense. It is hard to remain friends with them because I see it as breaking their vows.

I never outright condemn people because they may be successful. What I have a hard time with is people, many newly married, who proudly proclaim that they are going to wait until they are ready to have children. Or that they will have children at their own pace.

I feel for people who have a hard time conceiving or that may have miscarraiges. That can be very hard. My wife has had three miscarraiges. Of those babies had names picked out and our kids still remember their names.

Could the “bold proclaiming” be triggered by a deeper issue just to save face? Mental illness? Difficulty in the marriage behind closed doors?

Is that what we’re called to do, as Christians - walk away from friendships because they appear (as you see it) to be breaking their vows and sinning?
Or should we dine with sinners, so to speak - and BE that positive influence in their lives. They may never change - but then again, why would they if they didn’t have any guidance?

 

[Em_in_FL]

The point was that these families were open to all of the children that God intended to send to them. They did not selfishly say “Man we have 14 kids, we need to stop this. We live in a dirt house, are poor, etc.”

And I’m saying that there were many Saints from small families - how do you KNOW that their parents didn’t abstain because of those reasons?

 

[Jennifer_J]

Jennifer J;6009734:

Regarding Grave/Serious/Just:
QUOTE]

Jennifer,

You will find in many, many traditional circles there are many, myself included, who have deep problems with both Gaudem Et Spes and Humanae vitae. There is still much debate about the value of these documents.

The Vatican has even gone so far as to allow discussion about their validity/continuity of theology in the discussions with the SSPX. Do a little googling and you will find numerous articles about the theological rabbit holes that these documents went down.

It is not up to people to decide how many children God’s want to send. That is up to God. When you start guessing what God wants for you, you reject God’s work through you.

Most Catholics today have no clue what constitutes a grave reason. Many say they don’t have enough money, but they fail to recognize that they could sell their expensive home and move to a different, cheaper area. Just one example.

You will find that the people who speak the loudest about being able to avoid children using NFP also have the smallest families. They want to justify somehow their use of NFP in a contraceptive way when there is no grave reason. Money is seldom if ever a grave reason unless you live in somolia, etc. It is almost impossible to starve in this country if you really want to eat.

Health is one of the few areas where I could see a grave reason in the West. If you risk death somehow by getting pregnant then that is a grave reason. Not being able to send little Johnny to Harvard is not a valid reason. Wanting to “wait awhile” is not a valid reason. “We don’t really want another child right now” is not a valid reason. Yet these are the very reasons many people give for their use of NFP. It is a contraceptive mentality.

This is what I meant before by looking at current documents thru the lens of all of the teachings of the past. When you only look at the present documents you have no idea where there came from and what the traditional teaching of the church is. So you read them at face value and think “Well this sounds great, I will discern what God wants for me and then just fly with that. I am not ready for kids right now so…we will just put off having them.” How very selfish.

I am not saying you are personally this way, but that is the mindset that many people arrive at when they read only documents that come from Vatican II and later. So many ideas in just these two documents that border on complete break with traditional Catholic teaching. Be very careful of anyone teaching you something about the faith who can not explain what the previous teachings and beliefs of the church are and how these documents are a “hermenutic of continuity”.

Alright, I give up. You are too set in your opinion on the matter to hear anyone but yourself and your little world. You presume A LOT about me (yeah, note I have 6 children) and others who use NFP to space or avoid children. Thankfully, I don’t answer to Pope Moon. Your biggest mistake is not understanding that most Catholics just contracept. We should be grateful for the few who use NFP, because at least they’ve listened to the Church a bit. You are angry at those who are at least attempting to follow the Church, even if they are still selfish–we all have sin in our lives, our own crosses to carry. My dh and I are converts. It took a huge leap of faith to throw away the pill and rely on NFP. NFP was a stepping stone in our journey to being open to life, because we certainly had no idea what that meant before. Had you asked me 15 years ago about our family, it certainly wouldn’t look like it does today. NFP and the Church’s teachings on life really opened our heart to more children. I think perhaps you need to focus on praying for your family and stop being anguished (and angry and jealous?) that they are using NFP. It could be so much worse. Now, 6 children later, I’m not sure we’ll have more for a variety of reasons that you probably would think was selfish. You seem to think you know what’s grave/serious/just for EVERYONE, but guess what, you don’t. You may think you know for those around you, but guess what, you don’t. You can’t read hearts. The Church outlines what could be grave/serious/just in vague terms because what might be grave for me, might not be for you–financial, emotional, physical–to be dealt with between the couple and God. I, for one, am grateful for the option of NFP that the Church, in her wisdom, allows for just reasons.

btw, did some googling and all I found were hateful things about NFPers going to hell and even a break w/in the traditionalist movement about this.
mostholyfamilymonastery.com/refuting_NFP.html
mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Natural_Family_Planning.html
traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=6&catname=9
It’s sad really.

 

[ac_claire]

Maybe I am a little bitter, but I think this mentality comes directly from having a contraceptive mentality. Most pre-cana classes only reinforce this thinking. Without a priest explaining what grave reasons are, what virtous countinence is, how will this type of thinking ever change?

I agree with you here, moon. And I’m also frustrated when I see that the concept of having a grave and just reason to TTA has become for many people, pretty much meaningless. Some people (some of the ones who taught me about NFP actually) think any reason whatsoever is a “grave reason” and their definition of grave or just reason constantly changes to encompass whatever reason under the sun that they want to have.

I think this is partly because of what you said, because the Church doesn’t seem to offer any substantial definition for a grave or just reason to TTA, and priests are reluctant to expound on it. When it was presented to us, it was 100% along the lines of “you ***have ***to learn NFP because otherwise what will you do to TTA??” (The irony being we did eventually learn NFP and we used it to help us TTC. )

At the same time though…I couldn’t imagine ever telling someone else that their reasons aren’t truly just, even if it appears so. Not unless I’ve walked in their shoes.

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/refuting_NFP.html
mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Natural_Family_Planning.html
traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=6&catname=9
It’s sad really.

FWIW, this group is already officially in schism with the Church. I agree, it is sad.

 

[moon1234]

Could the “bold proclaiming” be triggered by a deeper issue just to save face? Mental illness? Difficulty in the marriage behind closed doors?

Is that what we’re called to do, as Christians - walk away from friendships because they appear (as you see it) to be breaking their vows and sinning?
Or should we dine with sinners, so to speak - and BE that positive influence in their lives. They may never change - but then again, why would they if they didn’t have any guidance?

I never said I walk away from my friends, just that it gets old listening to the petty reasons that are given for not having chidren. Some friends become like siblings. You could tell them they are flat out wrong, but they just blow it off. What is a person supposed to do? We set a good example, but it is hard when people choose to ignore their faith and one of their vows.

 

[moon1234]

I agree with you here, moon. And I’m also frustrated when I see that the concept of having a grave and just reason to TTA has become for many people, pretty much meaningless. Some people (some of the ones who taught me about NFP actually) think any reason whatsoever is a “grave reason” and their definition of grave or just reason constantly changes to encompass whatever reason under the sun that they want to have.

I think this is partly because of what you said, because the Church doesn’t seem to offer any substantial definition for a grave or just reason to TTA, and priests are reluctant to expound on it. When it was presented to us, it was 100% along the lines of “you ***have ***to learn NFP because otherwise what will you do to TTA??” (The irony being we did eventually learn NFP and we used it to help us TTC. )

At the same time though…I couldn’t imagine ever telling someone else that their reasons aren’t truly just, even if it appears so. Not unless I’ve walked in their shoes.

FWIW, this group is already officially in schism with the Church. I agree, it is sad.

So people are just vain and they come right out and say what they mean and why. These, for the most part, are the people that I am talking about. I never tell people to their face, unless I really know them well, that what they are doing is wrong. I do however expound ad nausem when someone bings up the topic or I am teaching religious ed about this topic.

The point is some people come right out and say they are going to use NFP because they want to save up money first for the kids college, or they want to go on a trip, etc. You can probably even find these examples on this forum.

The links that you posted about are not necessarily bad commentary on NFP. A person will not be violating any type of Catholic dogma by believing what is written. NFP is not a dogma of the church afterall. The “split” among traditionalists that is and has happened is due to the lack of proper catechesis and mis-application of NFP that is happening throughout most of modern catholocism. This split is a direct result of people not knowing what their faith is and what the requirements are.

Just because grave reasons can differ from couple to couple does not mean that we should not give examples to help people understand WHAT constitues a grave reason. too often people take what I say personally, when it was not meant as a personal comment. Some will read other things into what is written or said and then drawn a negative conclusion.

 

[FrenchGwen]

I never outright condemn people because they may be successful. What I have a hard time with is people, many newly married, who proudly proclaim that they are going to wait until they are ready to have children. Or that they will have children at their own pace.

Well, I suppose I come in this category : been married for 16 months, and yes we proclaim that we are going to wait until we have children.
Why do we proclaim ?

• because we’re tired from remarks and questions on this matter that is, after all, private. Because I have much younger siblings that could’nt help asking me if I’m pregnant every time I see them.
• because many of our friends are not Catholics, and doubt the efficiency of NFP, and many others are Catholics, soon to be married, anxious to follow the Church teachings, yet not sure that they will be able to manage a dozen kids. To the first ones, showing we are able to not have children right away is a means of telling them “no, the church does not ask impossible things, it indicates a way of living love”. To the second ones, we give confidence that if they have good reasons to avoid having children at any moment in their marriage, God has given them the possibility to follow their conscience; in both case, we see that as our role of witnesses

Why do we wait ?

• many reasons, and one especially is : still learning to be married… our first year of marriage WAS rocky, even if it didn’t show on the surface and we perfectly played the “happy newlyweds” part in front of family and friends who evidently expected us to be happy newlyweds (and made it clear: “uh, how are you, still on your pink cloud ?”)…
  hm… Joys of greeting unexpected visit when you’ve just been arguing and still have tears in your eyes => official version given “ah, I’ve got an awful cold”
  we were and are so happy that God gave us this time to adjust to each other !

 

[MARKOS08]

Wow, I had no idea that this such program exsisted. Does the “Planning” refer to as in how the finance and structure of roles in the family should be or the what I fear; that the marriage should plan out when to have children?

 

[moon1234]

Wow, I had no idea that this such program exsisted. Does the “Planning” refer to as in how the finance and structure of roles in the family should be or the what I fear; that the marriage should plan out when to have children?

The latter, The previous poster is a good example of the sum of this whole discussion.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Wow, I had no idea that this such program exsisted. Does the “Planning” refer to as in how the finance and structure of roles in the family should be or the what I fear; that the marriage should plan out when to have children?

Natural Family Planning refers to following the natural fertility signs in a woman’s body in order to prayerfully discern whether or not you should engage in marital relations when there is a high probably of conception. If it is decided that it is not the proper time, abstinence is required.