Natural Family Planning for "Serious" Reasons

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But once the urge gets strong, they abandon the method - either by contracepting or having sex anyway. If they can stick to abstaining, that signals to me that they “mean it,” even if their reasons are not my reasons (and as an outsider, who knows? Plus people who neb may not get truthful answers.)
Right.

Plus, part of the unspoken answer may be, “We’re an older, tireder, more patient couple with a lot of responsibilities, and we are quite happy to take a break now and then.”

Apologies for the TMI, but I would have to raise my hand for that one.

But it’s not the sort of thing I’d tell Hoosier Daddy, were he a real life friend inquiring as to the reason behind our underproduction.
 
But once the urge gets strong, they abandon the method - either by contracepting or having sex anyway. If they can stick to abstaining, that signals to me that they “mean it,” even if their reasons are not my reasons (and as an outsider, who knows? Plus people who neb may not get truthful answers.)
It’s the Catholics who may lie about contracepting, not the secular crunchy types.
 
Hang out at the farmers markets more.
I know at least three couples who use nfp for “natural” reasons who I’m sure will probably never have children. Or maybe just one. At least one of the couples has told me they do so out of environmental overpopulation reasons.
They are more disciplined and adept than many catholic couples who struggle with nfp .
Eh, if it doesn’t work out for them, they’ll get sterilized.

I don’t think it’s an apples to apples comparison.
 
Hang out at the farmers markets more.
I know at least three couples who use nfp for “natural” reasons who I’m sure will probably never have children. Or maybe just one. At least one of the couples has told me they do so out of environmental overpopulation reasons.
They are more disciplined and adept than many catholic couples who struggle with nfp .
Many of those couples use barrier methods during fertile periods. But even if they didn’t, that’s a significant moral reason to them. We may disagree, but “doing our part to be good people by sacrificing temporary happiness,” doesn’t exactly smack of selfishness. Just lunacy. 😉
 
The trend I’m noticing in nfp in general is an uptick in the crunchy crowd using it more. Non catholic earthy types, many of whom would use it for reasons a catholic couple might not accept as serious, and yet they choose this method as a natural birth control.
I originally learned NFP as the Fertility Awareness Method (FAM) from “Taking Charge of Your Fertility” and practiced that for a long time with no religious motivations whatsoever. I didn’t like the idea of putting hormones in my body long-term. There are many, many women who use FAM (with abstinence or barrier methods during their fertile time) that have no religious motivations. This is not new, at all. TCOYF was published over 20 years ago.
 
Hang out at the farmers markets more.
I know at least three couples who use nfp for “natural” reasons who I’m sure will probably never have children. Or maybe just one. At least one of the couples has told me they do so out of environmental overpopulation reasons.
They are more disciplined and adept than many catholic couples who struggle with nfp .
Umm, just because they use NFP, does not mean they “abstain” with no other activities that for Catholics would be grave matter.
 
Right.

Plus, part of the unspoken answer may be, “We’re an older, tireder, more patient couple with a lot of responsibilities, and we are quite happy to take a break now and then.”

Apologies for the TMI, but I would have to raise my hand for that one.

But it’s not the sort of thing I’d tell Hoosier Daddy, were he a real life friend inquiring as to the .reason behind our underproductionrwL .
You might tell me that in real life as a former nfp teacher and an avid conversationalist it never surprises what people say to me. I know more about sex lifes and cycles of my friends and family than I should.😉
 
It’s the Catholics who may lie about contracepting, not the secular crunchy types.
I don’t disagree, but unless you’re following up “we track our fertility/do NFP/FAM!” by crunchy people by specifically asking about barriers during fertile periods (which, um, is socially weird in most circumstances), they may not think they’re lying at all. 🤷 That’s just part of it.

Good point by Mary Gail, too.

As zea maize said, too, TCOYF was my first exposure to the science of NFP and it was a big part of my coming to accept Church teaching on sexuality, which before I thought was totally nuts. So I wouldn’t knock it too hard in the interest of some kind of ideological purity.
 
Umm, just because they use NFP, does not mean they “abstain” with no other activities that for Catholics would be grave matter.
Yeah that’s true. My cousin used nfp to ttc. I had to put the old earmuffs on when he described various “acts”
 
It’s also important to remember that the Church, in Her wisdom, doesn’t have any hard-and-fast rules for scenarios for which a couple must either avoid or achieve. She leaves it to the individual couple and their discernment.

Basically, the exact same scenario could happen to two different couples, and they could still be called to do two different things. It’s a between-them-and-God thing.

For that matter, a couple could be called to do one thing at one point and another down the road.

For example, let’s take Couple A and B. Both Wife A and Wife B have been told that another pregnancy is likely to involve certain medical complications, complications which are quite serious and could potentially, though far from certainly, lead to either death or loss of significant bodily function.

Objectively, that’s serious. Yup.

However, Wife A’s particular path in life might well be, as she and her husband discern after a lot of prayer, to say, “Okay, God, I think you’re calling us to have another baby,” and go on to do exactly that, while Wife B, after similar time in prayer with hubby, may well say, “Hmm, I have a very strong feeling that God wants us to avoid, at least for now, thanks to these medical reasons. I guess that’s what we’ll do.” And if they make these decisions in good faith and after prayerful, listening discernment, neither will have been “wrong.”

I would also like to toss this out there for both the posters and the lurkers: a lot of people have been badly formed in the Catholic faith for one reason or another, or have been hurt by something pertaining to the faith and still bear those scars. It’s not a bad idea to bear them, especially those struggling with matters of faith and scrupulosity, in mind when posting on here.

I can tell you personally that these threads are part of the reason I’ve toned down my time on CAF: even though I know objectively that what DH and I are doing* is the right thing for us at this particular time, seeing even one poster who makes disparaging comments about people who use NFP “unnecessarily,” or about those with small families, etc (thank goodness, haven’t seen that on here yet, though I did about larger ones…sigh…) are enough to grip this particular poster’s heart and wrench it yet again with the feeling that I’m so flawed that I can never really be a part of the Church, that there doesn’t seem to be anything but judgment in it for those who aren’t Exactly Like Other People. We wanted a big family. Turns out that’s not an option. Yet I not infrequently seem to encounter the mindset, here and elsewhere, that Good Catholic Women ™ don’t have health issues relating to childbearing, or if they do, they ignore them and the problems never really materialize. The opinions and actions of others should, of course, have nothing to do with whether or not a person remains in the Church, but speaking in kindness, rather than nastily with a Catholic veneer to excuse the nastiness, will do no harm and much good. Those are real people behind the screen, real people with hearts and souls that can be wounded.

*NFP due to life-threatening medical reasons on my part
 
But once the urge gets strong, they abandon the method - either by contracepting or having sex anyway. If they can stick to abstaining, that signals to me that they “mean it,” even if their reasons are not my reasons (and as an outsider, who knows? Plus people who neb may not get truthful answers.)
Many people are very serious in their selfish and worldly desires and unafraid to share way too much. Many women won’t and some can’t take hormonal contraceptives and latex allergies are not that unusual. Others just don’t like the available ABC methods for whatever reason. I am not sure what makes posters on CAF so sure that everyone has trouble abstaining for reasons that aren’t serious or grave or life threatening. To many people, lifestyle threatening holds more weight than anything medical. They avoid, avoid, avoid and then they get medical help to have a baby. Often the try for a baby once their health is in decline rather than fear for their health. It’s all about being in control of every aspect of our worldly life, and for several couples that is the draw towards NFP. It puts them in control of all aspects, including their urges. Of course that isn’t the case for everyone and I agree many Catholic couples would not ever dream of that. Continuously stating it is next to impossible for anyone to misuse NFP, though, is simply untrue. And illogical.
 
I can tell you personally that these threads are part of the reason I’ve toned down my time on CAF: even though I know objectively that what DH and I are doing* is the right thing for us at this particular time, seeing even one poster who makes disparaging comments about people who use NFP “unnecessarily,” or about those with small families, etc (thank goodness, haven’t seen that on here yet, though I did about larger ones…sigh…) are enough to grip this particular poster’s heart and wrench it yet again with the feeling that I’m so flawed that I can never really be a part of the Church, that there doesn’t seem to be anything but judgment in it for those who aren’t Exactly Like Other People. We wanted a big family. Turns out that’s not an option. Yet I not infrequently seem to encounter the mindset, here and elsewhere, that Good Catholic Women ™ don’t have health issues relating to childbearing, or if they do, they ignore them and the problems never really materialize. The opinions and actions of others should, of course, have nothing to do with whether or not a person remains in the Church, but speaking in kindness, rather than nastily with a Catholic veneer to excuse the nastiness, will do no harm and much good. Those are real people behind the screen, real people with hearts and souls that can be wounded.

*NFP due to life-threatening medical reasons on my part
I don’t know how many children you have, but you are exactly why I get so angry when people make comments to me about having one child. You NEVER EVER know why someone has an only. I happen to be happy with one, but it pains me to think of other women who are not as happy with that reality getting the same comments I do. From one small family mama to another - huge hugs.
 
For us, money is the reason. And I don’t mean that in a take vacations every year sort of way.

After our first, we bought a house. When our second was born, we had to file bankruptcy (chapter 7) to keep the house and car we needed to carry the kids around (we live in a car dependent area and not having a car or having one car was not an option). Even after that, we still could not afford our living expenses and had to sell our house and move in with the in-laws to not be overdrafting every month buying food and diapers.

Now we are pregnant again 😃 I guess God saw that we were getting along better financially and sent us another blessing. That, and we decided to throw caution to the wind one night…

For the record, NFP is what brought me to the church, through CAF actually. I was learning to use it for secular reasons myself. I’m a bit of the cruchy type also. I decided using artificial hormones was not appropriate for secular reasons (health, etc), and barrier methods, although I considered okay from the secular viewpoint at the time, were understandably less fulfilling. It was my research of NFP devices that led me to CAF, that led me to the Catholic position on ABC, which led me to learn more about the church and join the church. So keep up the discussion, you never know who is reading.
 
The you are a man argument really has no bearing on moral principles involved. That’s like saying a man can’t be an obgyn.

This thread is going to get real ugly real fast.😉
I really didn’t want to touch this thread with a ten foot pole, and I regret that I did. But now that I have, I feel I need to say my piece.

The Church does not lay out specific scenarios in which the use of NFP is morally okay. It’s different for everyone. Everyone has what they can handle and what they can’t. What is considered selfish for one couple may be good, prudential judgement for another couple. So, if you’re going to argue morning sickness I’m afraid that a person who never has and never will experience such a thing doesn’t get to decide if that particular thing makes NFP acceptable.
 
We recently conceived in what anyone, even us, would agree was a situation of serious matter. The most serious. Life of the mother serious.
On our knees in adoration we discussed it, through tears in bed we discussed it, in front of doctors we discussed it with priests, and trusted spiritual friends we discussed it. With napro tech we discussed it. We had every reason to turn back to nfp. And without too much explanation a surgical permanent solution was on the table. The doctor gave us two choices and only two. A hysterectomy which could endanger my wife, irva pregnancie which could also endanger her.

Our answer was clear and in one of the only times in my life I can say the voice of God in this decision was so unmistakably loud we had to trust it.

Now, morally, anyone could have chosen not to have another child. But they also could choose to do so.

At least with us, at the end of my life, no matter how this turns out, I can look my savior in the eye and proudly say " we followed your lead"

I know frivolous, I know grave, and I know about children.

I also know that we are all called to different things and someone who was in our situation could have made the opposite choice and been just as obedient to the will of God .
 
Oh! And, my favorite over-share story was one Christmas season my DH received a Christmas card from an old high school classmate. They had reconnected and we were included in their cards that year. Their Christmas letter was two pages long mostly about how God led them to vasectomy reversal and they conceived their post-vasectomy baby. Now, I don’t object to sharing a testimony about God’s work in your life, but that was a tad bit personal for the yearly Christmas letter.
 
We recently conceived in what anyone, even us, would agree was a situation of serious matter. The most serious. Life of the mother serious.
On our knees in adoration we discussed it, through tears in bed we discussed it, in front of doctors we discussed it with priests, and trusted spiritual friends we discussed it. With napro tech we discussed it. We had every reason to turn back to nfp. And without too much explanation a surgical permanent solution was on the table. The doctor gave us two choices and only two. A hysterectomy which could endanger my wife, irva pregnancie which could also endanger her.

Our answer was clear and in one of the only times in my life I can say the voice of God in this decision was so unmistakably loud we had to trust it.

Now, morally, anyone could have chosen not to have another child. But they also could choose to do so.

At least with us, at the end of my life, no matter how this turns out, I can look my savior in the eye and proudly say " we followed your lead"

I know frivolous, I know grave, and I know about children.

I also know that we are all called to different things and someone who was in our situation could have made the opposite choice and been just as obedient to the will of God .
This is a beautiful story. I will pray that the ending is as beautiful as the beginning.
 
Many people are very serious in their selfish and worldly desires and unafraid to share way too much. Many women won’t and some can’t take hormonal contraceptives and latex allergies are not that unusual. Others just don’t like the available ABC methods for whatever reason. I am not sure what makes posters on CAF so sure that everyone has trouble abstaining for reasons that aren’t serious or grave or life threatening. To many people, lifestyle threatening holds more weight than anything medical. They avoid, avoid, avoid and then they get medical help to have a baby. Often the try for a baby once their health is in decline rather than fear for their health. It’s all about being in control of every aspect of our worldly life, and for several couples that is the draw towards NFP. It puts them in control of all aspects, including their urges. Of course that isn’t the case for everyone and I agree many Catholic couples would not ever dream of that. Continuously stating it is next to impossible for anyone to misuse NFP, though, is simply untrue. And illogical.
I can follow this line of argument, but I guess I don’t find it useful. I think framing it this way is likely to shut people out rather than draw them in. I grew up secular. I grew up a control freak. The appeal of NFP was actually that I could trust and not have to exert my will over my body all the time and hate it.

It was a small step but an important one.
 
The you are a man argument really has no bearing on moral principles involved. That’s like saying a man can’t be an obgyn.

This thread is going to get real ugly real fast.😉
I really didn’t want to touch this thread with a ten foot pole, and I regret that I did. But now that I have, I feel I need to say one more thing:

The Church does not lay out specific scenarios in which the use of NFP is morally okay. It’s different for everyone. Everyone has what they can handle and what they can’t. What is considered selfish for one couple may be good, prudential judgement for another couple. The poster in question laid out specific examples of acceptable scenarios. If the Church herself doesn’t lay out specific scenarios, how can he? :rolleyes:

But if one is indeed going to take that role on himself (which he shouldn’t do in the first place), he should at least be careful about what he is saying. If you’re going to argue morning sickness, I’m afraid that a person who never has and never will experience such a thing doesn’t get to decide if avoiding pregnancy for that particular reason makes NFP acceptable.

But it doesn’t matter. This is one of those threads that will go on for 20 pages and no conclusion will be reached.

Unsubscribing
 
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