Natural Family Planning... "Just Reasons?"

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Just thought I’d check the definition of contraception to clear up the confusion and arguing…

contraception
Noun
the deliberate use of artificial or natural means to prevent pregnancy
 
But sometimes having a child will change a person.

Before the birth of our child:
I missed Mass, regularly
I lived with my future husband, then got married in a court house
I used artificial birth control, the pill

After the birth of our child:
we were married in the Church
I never miss Mass, unless I am very sick
I use NFP
(I am sure lots of people were praying for this to happen)

👍
I am thankful that we have the Church to follow.

So, I too will follow what the Church teaches.
Mary, yes, I have grown and matured over the last few decades. My children are a blessing, by constantly holding a mirror up to me to let me see myself.

But, I am so frustrated by the ethnic Catholics, or CINO, or Christmas and Easter Catholics who skew polls and make us look like something we are not. Or, do they? Over the years, I have come to realize that my wife and I are not the only holy people in our parish…:o But, that said, from participating in various parish activities, I know what my fellow parishioners think, and it’s not very orthodox.

I am not a traditionalist, but I do admit that the Church has not done a good job at catechesis and sort of let the laity run wild the past several decades.

That’s why I get so mad when people come in and start bashing the faithful Catholics who actually try to follow Church teaching in this area.
 
Just thought I’d check the definition of contraception to clear up the confusion and arguing…

contraception
Noun
the deliberate use of artificial or natural means to prevent pregnancy
Emphasis mine. There are plenty of natural herbs that will prevent and terminate pregnancy, that doesn’t make them any less wrong. A copper IUD is arguably natural as well.
 
I think you missed what I said. I said the test should be if the condition is serious enoough for you to abstain from sex. If you have serious enough reason for you to abstain then you may have a case for NFP.
Thanks for clarifying, I missed this too. I don’t know that the church teaches this precise sentiment, but I may agree with you that this is generally a good guideline. However, it doesn’t take into account that some couples find it much easier to abstain than others.

Example: For DH and I, abstaining is pretty easy and doesn’t harm our marriage relationship in our experience (we had to abstain for 6 months during the second half of breastfeeding infertility). For us, the “we’d be willing to abstain completely” bar is very low. This reasoning would seem to imply that avoiding pregnancy so that we could pay for our children’s college would be acceptable for us. Of course, our ability to participate in the creation of new life should not actually be put on hold to pay for a child’s college, even if we find it easy to abstain.

Also, I wanted to bring up the point that some people are much more fertile than others - and this does affect the amount of restraint they need to exercise to be prudent. You mentioned the fact that you had a period of four years without birth control and without children. This implies that you are not as fertile as some people (although with five children, you don’t seem to be experiencing infertility either) and may not understand how God can call us to restraint in exercising the gift of extreme fruitfulness.

Another example from my life: In my family, sex while fertile = pregnancy. Very rarely does it take more than one month to conceive. A two-year gap without birth control is unheard of. My mother had seven children in eight years. I clearly seem to have inherited this fertility. DH and I have opened our marriage fully to life only one month in the entire four years we have been married, and God responded richly by blessing us with two children. We have no reason to believe God will withhold this responsiveness from us in the future, and therefore have opted for restraint for now so we can reorder our lives to accomodate that responsiveness.

Using “grave” reasons only as sufficient reason to exercise restraint likely means we will have fewer children in the end, as we would probably spend a great deal of time on the edge of a financially grave situation and need to abstain almost constantly; every time we were no longer in immediate risk of homelessness if I became pregnant, we would cease abstaining and I would probably become pregnant within a month - returning us to near-poverty when I lost my job, since DH cannot support the family on his own. It would be a very difficult cycle to endure, with years of financial recovery between pregnancies. Restraint now - while we save enough that I can start a home business that I can maintain while pregnant, to supplement DH’s insufficient income, and while DH studies so he can earn a larger income - means the hope to fully exercise our fruitfulness fully and prudently in the future and less risk of extreme poverty.

You have been blessed with a call to entrust your family to God and seek fruitfulness without restraint, if I understand your story correctly. That is a beautiful calling and a wonderful witness to God’s power in your lives. But it’s not a calling that everyone shares. I hope this comes across well; although I do think you are being more strict than the church in your interpretations, I also think you are seeking to help others inform their consciences. The examples you give of NFP for frivilous things like so kids can go to college on the parents’ dime are definitely not sufficient reason to abstain, but this does not mean that all situations that are serious but not grave are insufficient.

Out of curiousity, do you think the desire to have a stay-at-home parent is adequate reason to abstain? I would not call it “grave reason to avoid pregnancy”, but it still seems adequate reason to me (although such families would hopefully be looking for other ways to balance their budget). I do know of at least one family where the already-full-time mother took a second part-time job to afford a child sooner (her husband also works, and they juggle shifts to always have one parent at home so that they can homeschool), and she expects to continue working this schedule with a few months of the child’s birth or less to avoid going into debt - but to me, that seems excessive to ask of most families even though I would hardly call her circumstances “grave”.
 
Emphasis mine. There are plenty of natural herbs that will prevent and terminate pregnancy, that doesn’t make them any less wrong. A copper IUD is arguably natural as well.
From Wikipedia:

Probably the oldest methods of contraception (aside from avoiding vaginal intercourse) are coitus interruptus, lactational, certain barrier methods, and herbal methods (emmenagogues* and abortifacients).*

I think we need to be honest here…the Church is against artificial contraception, not contraception…so I wish people would stop playing semantics.
 
From Wikipedia:

Probably the oldest methods of contraception (aside from avoiding vaginal intercourse) are coitus interruptus, lactational, certain barrier methods, and herbal methods (emmenagogues* and abortifacients).*

I think we need to be honest here…the Church is against artificial contraception, not contraception…so I wish people would stop playing semantics.
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/contra

Its COUNTER TO CONCEPTION. You can not counter something by taking NO action. Its not semantics its correct terminology.
 
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/contra

Its COUNTER TO CONCEPTION. You can not counter something by taking NO action. Its not semantics its correct terminology.
When someone chooses not to have sex they have chosen an action…to not have sex.

I am not arguing against Church teaching…it is against artificial means of contraception…but when a couple chooses not to have sex it is the oldest example of contraception…albeit a natural form of contraception.
 
When someone chooses not to have sex they have chosen an action…to not have sex.
That is utterly illogical. You can not act by taking no action. Just like you can not counter act something that can not happen.
 
That is utterly illogical. You can not act by taking no action. Just like you can not counter act something that can not happen.
What is the definition of choice? The act of choosing. The couple has already “done” something when they choose. It’s really not illogical at all. You are just focusing on physical actions when actions take different forms.
 
Just so I’m clear, are some of you saying that abstaining at certain times of the month from sex, is the same as using birth control pills? :confused: (if used to avoid pregnancy)

So…if someone is using NFP for ‘just’ reasons, and this is permissible by our Church…are you claiming the Church is wrong in permitting NFP to be used as a method to avoid pregnancy? Because you feel NFP is wrong for any reason other than medical reasons…you feel that people should not follow Church acceptance of this? If the Church is accepting of the NFP method of avoiding pregnancy, for just reasons, it isn’t for lay people to ‘overturn’ Her decision. 🤷

:confused:
 
Just so I’m clear, are some of you saying that abstaining at certain times of the month from sex, is the same as using birth control pills? :confused: (if used to avoid pregnancy)

So…if someone is using NFP for ‘just’ reasons, and this is permissible by our Church…are you claiming the Church is wrong in permitting NFP to be used as a method to avoid pregnancy? Because you feel NFP is wrong for any reason other than medical reasons…you feel that people should not follow Church acceptance of this? If the Church is accepting of the NFP method of avoiding pregnancy, for just reasons, it isn’t for lay people to ‘overturn’ Her decision. 🤷

:confused:
:whacky: I think your explination was more confusing than whatever point he was trying to make, which I’ll gladly admit, I don’t understand either. I think it dealt mostly with semantics. Whatever those are.

I agreed with the action/no action choice business, though. Choosing to not do something is as much a choice as anything else.

But that’s all off topic, isn’t it? NFP! If you have to do math, there is nothing innocent about your abstinance, and nothing natural about your choosing when to have sex!

Sex! It’s natural!
Math! It’s not!
 
It sounds like there are lay people here implying that our Church shouldn’t allow for nfp, that’s what I was trying to say–sorry for the confusion.

I am going to follow the Church on this, like Paul says.👍

If the Church says something is permissible, I’ll go with that.
 
What is the definition of choice? The act of choosing. The couple has already “done” something when they choose. It’s really not illogical at all. You are just focusing on physical actions when actions take different forms.
Contraception is the act of blocking or counteracting conception, hence the word contraception. A badly worded wiki (which is generally not considered a good source anyway) is not going to change this.

Its not possible to block or counter conception if conception can not occur. Full stop. The choice its self does not block or counter anything.

Now you can disagree all day long but you should note in all the documents surrounding it Church no where makes any distinction between natural contraception or artificial contraception. Only that contraception (no modifiers) is intrically evil.
 
It sounds like there are lay people here implying that our Church shouldn’t allow for nfp, that’s what I was trying to say–sorry for the confusion.

I am going to follow the Church on this, like Paul says.👍

If the Church says something is permissible, I’ll go with that.
Not at all whatever…at least I’m not. I am arguing the definition and use of the word contraception however. I think there are people who refuse to believe that choosing to abstain from sex is not contraceptive…simply because they are stuck on the negative connotation.

It is interesting to note, that although the CCC uses the word contraception, it is not mentioned in Humana Vitae at all. HV discusses how the use of artificial methods of birth control is wrong.

And…birth control is synonymous with contraception:

**Main Entry:birth controlPart of Speech:nounDefinition:pregnancy preventionSynonyms:*IUD, abortion, abstinence, birth prevention, conception prevention, condom, contraception, contraceptive, diaphragm, family planning, method of preventing pregnancy, pill, planned parenthood, rhythm method, rubber, safety, tied tubes, vasectomy
 
Not at all whatever…at least I’m not. I am arguing the definition and use of the word contraception however. I think there are people who refuse to believe that choosing to abstain from sex is not contraceptive…simply because they are stuck on the negative connotation.

It is interesting to note, that although the CCC uses the word contraception, it is not mentioned in Humana Vitae at all. HV discusses how the use of artificial methods of birth control is wrong.

And…birth control is synonymous with contraception:

**Main Entry:birth controlPart of Speech:nounDefinition:pregnancy preventionSynonyms:*IUD, abortion, abstinence, birth prevention, conception prevention, condom, contraception, contraceptive, diaphragm, family planning, method of preventing pregnancy, pill, planned parenthood, rhythm method, rubber, safety, tied tubes, vasectomy
Do you know a synonym is right?

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/synonym

Main Entry: syn·o·nym
Pronunciation: \ˈsi-nə-ˌnim\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sinonyme, from Latin synonymum, from Greek synōnymon, from neuter of synōnymos synonymous, from syn- + onyma name — more at name
Date: 15th century
1: one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses
2 a: a word or phrase that by association is held to embody something (as a concept or quality) b: metonym
3: one of two or more scientific names used to designate the same taxonomic group — compare homonym

Your the one playing with semantics here. Again no one said we NFP isn’t Birth Control, it every clearly it is. It is not contraception. The subtle difference between the two is the reason why NFP is MORAL birth control and contraception is not.
 
Do you know a synonym is right?

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/synonym

Main Entry: syn·o·nym
Pronunciation: \ˈsi-nə-ˌnim\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sinonyme, from Latin synonymum, from Greek synōnymon, from neuter of synōnymos synonymous, from syn- + onyma name — more at name
Date: 15th century
1: one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses
2 a: a word or phrase that by association is held to embody something (as a concept or quality) b: metonym
3: one of two or more scientific names used to designate the same taxonomic group — compare homonym

Your the one playing with semantics here. Again no one said we NFP isn’t Birth Control, it every clearly it is. It is not contraception. The subtle difference between the two is the reason why NFP is MORAL birth control and contraception is not.
So I guess you decide which words are the same vs nearly the same, right?

Let’s see what the doctors have to say:
medicinenet.com/natural_methods_of_birth_control/article.htm

According to the medical field, birth control=contraception=abstinence (abstinence is listed as a natural method of contraception.

I think it might be a good idea for the CCC to re-word the section that uses the word “contraception”…it leads others to believe that all forms of contraception are evil. I wonder whether this word was used as a result of a poor translation.
 
Do you know a synonym is right?

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/synonym

Main Entry: syn·o·nym
Pronunciation: \ˈsi-nə-ˌnim\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sinonyme, from Latin synonymum, from Greek synōnymon, from neuter of synōnymos synonymous, from syn- + onyma name — more at name
Date: 15th century
1: one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses
2 a: a word or phrase that by association is held to embody something (as a concept or quality) b: metonym
3: one of two or more scientific names used to designate the same taxonomic group — compare homonym

Your the one playing with semantics here. Again no one said we NFP isn’t Birth Control, it every clearly it is. It is not contraception. The subtle difference between the two is the reason why NFP is MORAL birth control and contraception is not.
So you decide which synonyms are the same and which ones are nearly the same…interesting.

Doctors use the terms interchangeably:
From: medicinenet.com/natural_methods_of_birth_control/article.htm

*Natural methods of contraception are considered “natural” because they are non-mechanical and non-hormonal. Natural methods of birth control require that a man and woman not have sexual intercourse during the time when an egg is available to be fertilized by a sperm. Fertility awareness methods (FAMs) are based upon knowing when a woman ovulates each month. Natural methods of birth control include: the calendar rhythm, basal body temperature, mucus inspection, symptothermal, use of an ovulation indicator testing kit, withdrawal, lactational infertility, douching and urination, and abstinence. *

I think the CCC should change the wording in the one section where “contraception” is referenced because it does give the impression that all forms of contraception are evil. I wonder whether the word was used as a result of poor translation from Latin to English.
 
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