Natural Family Planning... "Just Reasons?"

[whatevergirl]

Whatevergirl…I’m beginning to think you misunderstood my other post. Just so you know, my assertion was not that many/most Catholics use ABC (although I do believe that is the truth here in the US), but that the reasons that most Catholics use ABC is the same as the reasons that other Catholics use NFP.

No, I understood…and again, a better statement would be…from the people I know who use ABC and are Catholic, their reasons are the same for using it, as those who use NFP.

Now, that is interesting, I have to say.

 

[baylee]

LOL–I’m sorry. I sound like the word police, forgive me, not my intent.

Not a problem…I think it’s fair to at least try to preface that it’s based on personal experience.

 

[whatevergirl]

Not a problem…I think it’s fair to at least try to preface that it’s based on personal experience.

Agreed. I started a new thread on this topic, because this all has me thinking, now! Thank you for kindly replying to me, here.

 

[PaulinVA]

It seems we have some “cafeteria poll users” here.

I have been using NFP for almost 20 years. I have read everything I can about the Church and use of NFP, and there has NEVER been an assertion, even by CCL, that the rate for Catholics is higher than 5%.

If you have any resource that claims higher rates of NFP use among Catholics, I would love to see it.

Remember, these are the same Catholics who, in the recently released Gallup poll, overwhelmingly (71%) believe in divorce. unmarried sex (67%), and having a child outside of wedlock (61%).

Do you think these same people are using NFP?

 

[whatevergirl]

It seems we have some “cafeteria poll users” here.

I have been using NFP for almost 20 years. I have read everything I can about the Church and use of NFP, and there has NEVER been an assertion, even by CCL, that the rate for Catholics is higher than 5%.

If you have any resource that claims higher rates of NFP use among Catholics, I would love to see it.

Remember, these are the same Catholics who, in the recently released Gallup poll, overwhelmingly (71%) believe in divorce. unmarried sex (67%), and having a child outside of wedlock (61%).

Do you think these same people are using NFP?

I’d like to see the poll…I’d like to see the poll showing married Catholics. NFP is a moot point, if someone isn’t married and is having sex, wouldn’t you say? haha

 

[PaulinVA]

I’d like to see the poll…I’d like to see the poll showing married Catholics. NFP is a moot point, if someone isn’t married and is having sex, wouldn’t you say? haha

The 67% of American Catholics who approve of sex outside of marriage don’t all of a sudden become orthodox when they get married, if they aren’t already.

My point in referencing the poll is that most Catholics don’t follow the teachings of the Church, so to expect that they are not contracepting isn’t a good assumption.

Yes, I would like to see a poll that showed ABC use (or NFP use) among married Catholics. I haven’t found a recent one in a while.

 

[LJN21]

Yes, I would like to see a poll that showed ABC use (or NFP use) among married Catholics. I haven’t found a recent one in a while.

harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=608

 

[whatevergirl]

The 67% of American Catholics who approve of sex outside of marriage don’t all of a sudden become orthodox when they get married, if they aren’t already.

My point in referencing the poll is that most Catholics don’t follow the teachings of the Church, so to expect that they are not contracepting isn’t a good assumption.

Yes, I would like to see a poll that showed ABC use (or NFP use) among married Catholics. I haven’t found a recent one in a while.

Maybe we’ll both be pleasantly surprised. lol

I’m not naive…I know what you are saying, I started a new thread on perhaps some of the ‘why’s’ behind why ‘many’ Catholics are contracepting, etc…Hope you’ll choose to join in.

 

[whatevergirl]

harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=608

 

[catholic79]

Yes, I would like to see a poll that showed ABC use (or NFP use) among married Catholics. I haven’t found a recent one in a while.

www.faithmag.com

This is a magazine for the diocese of Lansing, MI there are doing a poll this month on “Is it ever acceptable for Catholics to use artificial contraception?” right now the yeses are ahead. not exactly what you were looking for but close.

 

[moon1234]

Maybe we’ll both be pleasantly surprised. lol

I’m not naive…I know what you are saying, I started a new thread on perhaps some of the ‘why’s’ behind why ‘many’ Catholics are contracepting, etc…Hope you’ll choose to join in.

We don’t really need a poll for that. It is for selfish reasons. Each and every reponse will have some type of “Me” in there somewhere. Or some type of justification for why “I” should be able to.

Despite what many here WANT to believe, the rest of the world sees NFP as nothing more than Catholic Birth Control. So when a poll is given asking if people support birth control, those using NFP probably respond YES. Because NFP is a form of “BIRTH CONTROL”.

If you were to ask the general public what NFP was most would give you a blank stare. Those that do know what it is ARE using it to NOT have children.

Family Planning=Family Planning. Non-Catholics see NFP as just another alternative to Condoms, Drugs, etc. They will NOT see a difference in INTENT.

Catholic couples INTEND to not have children by using NFP. For whatever reason just or not, NFP is a FORM of birth control. Which is why so few actually practice it. It takes time, effort, is not 100% effective, limits a couples dates on when they can have sex, etc. All of the other ABC methods provide the same ends with similar or worse risks of getting pregnant.

 

[whatevergirl]

We don’t really need a poll for that. It is for selfish reasons. Each and every reponse will have some type of “Me” in there somewhere. Or some type of justification for why “I” should be able to.

Despite what many here WANT to believe, the rest of the world sees NFP as nothing more than Catholic Birth Control. So when a poll is given asking if people support birth control, those using NFP probably respond YES. Because NFP is a form of “BIRTH CONTROL”.

If you were to ask the general public what NFP was most would give you a blank stare. Those that do know what it is ARE using it to NOT have children.

Family Planning=Family Planning. Non-Catholics see NFP as just another alternative to Condoms, Drugs, etc. They will NOT see a difference in INTENT.

Catholic couples INTEND to not have children by using NFP. For whatever reason just or not, NFP is a FORM of birth control. Which is why so few actually practice it. It takes time, effort, is not 100% effective, limits a couples dates on when they can have sex, etc. All of the other ABC methods provide the same ends with similar or worse risks of getting pregnant.

You could be right.

 

[LJN21]

We don’t really need a poll for that. It is for selfish reasons. Each and every reponse will have some type of “Me” in there somewhere. Or some type of justification for why “I” should be able to.

Blanket Judgement.

Despite what many here WANT to believe, the rest of the world sees NFP as nothing more than Catholic Birth Control. So when a poll is given asking if people support birth control, those using NFP probably respond YES. Because NFP is a form of “BIRTH CONTROL”.

No one ever said it wasn’t Birth Control, it obviously is. The church as never said Birth Control was sinful and wrong with proper reasons. Its said CONTRACEPTION is inherently evil.

If you were to ask the general public what NFP was most would give you a blank stare. Those that do know what it is ARE using it to NOT have children.

This is again a judgemental statement and factually incorrect. Many people are using NFP To HAVE children.

Family Planning=Family Planning. Non-Catholics see NFP as just another alternative to Condoms, Drugs, etc. They will NOT see a difference in INTENT.

Doesn’t matter if they don’t see a difference. Ends never justify the means. The problem is you see the ends as evil where as the Church does not.

Catholic couples INTEND to not have children by using NFP. For whatever reason just or not, NFP is a FORM of birth control. Which is why so few actually practice it. It takes time, effort, is not 100% effective, limits a couples dates on when they can have sex, etc. All of the other ABC methods provide the same ends with similar or worse risks of getting pregnant.

Again no one is arguing that can’t be used as Birth Control but that’s not the issue here. You even said your self that your issue is what peoples reason are for spacing Births.

 

[PaulinVA]

Family Planning=Family Planning. Non-Catholics see NFP as just another alternative to Condoms, Drugs, etc. They will NOT see a difference in INTENT.

So? What’s your argument here? We can’t do things that non-Catholics would misunderstand?

Catholic couples INTEND to not have children by using NFP. For whatever reason just or not, NFP is a FORM of birth control. Which is why so few actually practice it. It takes time, effort, is not 100% effective, limits a couples dates on when they can have sex, etc. All of the other ABC methods provide the same ends with similar or worse risks of getting pregnant.

Moon, are you unable to deny yourself sex on any given day? That sure comes through in a lot of your posts. The absolute need to fulfill your sexual desire any time you feel it seems to be the underlying theme of your position on NFP.

There is a benefit to periodic continence. And, quite frankly, for you to propose that it is sinful for a couple not to have relations on a given day is strange. We are not animals that have to act out every thought that comes into our minds.

 

[choose_to_love]

LJN21, thank you for pointing out, yet again, that, for proper reasons arrived at with prayerful discernment, birth control is not wrong and is actually part of responsible parenthood. Whether that is accomplished through total abstinence until the circumstances mitigating against another child have changed, or one’s understanding of what the Lord is calling one to has changed, or through periodic abstinence with recourse to the infertile times in the woman’s cycle, is, I suppose, up to the individual couple. The Church, as you have pointed out numerous times in this thread, does not require total abstinence as only available option.

Birth control - - i.e. regulation of birth through licit means, consistent with Church teaching, and part of responsible parenthood

contraception - - positive action to render the act of intercourse sterile, always wrong

 

[moon1234]

So? What’s your argument here? We can’t do things that non-Catholics would misunderstand?

Moon, are you unable to deny yourself sex on any given day? That sure comes through in a lot of your posts. The absolute need to fulfill your sexual desire any time you feel it seems to be the underlying theme of your position on NFP.

There is a benefit to periodic continence. And, quite frankly, for you to propose that it is sinful for a couple not to have relations on a given day is strange. We are not animals that have to act out every thought that comes into our minds.

There is a difference in intent. If you are INTENDING to AVOID GETTING PREGNANT then you are using a form for CONTRACEPTION (The meaning of contra=againt and ception is from the word conceive. So BIRTH CONTROL=AGAINST CONCEPTION. NFP is a FORM of contraception. It is looking to avoid conceiving a child. ALL of the secular polls support my position that NFP IS a form of contraception.

Your ability to convince yourself that it is something else is amazing. The question was related to how NON-CATHOLICS view NFP. They SEE it as just another alternative to ABC. The intent is the same, the method is different.

The idea that the woman is still open to life and therefore it is not the same is an entirely Catholic idea. So please try to seperate my views and the church’s views on how the Catholic church teaches what NFP is and how society perceives NFP. The two are NOT the same.

As for regulating my sexual desires, sure I can regulate them just fine. Do I intentionally regulate to AVOID the times when conception is most likely? No I do not. I personally ask my wife NOT to tell me when she is fertile and when she is not. In that way when we both desire each other there is not INTENT to avoid pregnancy in our decision to copulate. Obviously I know WHEN she is fertile due to the physical changes “down there”, but that does not change my intent to have sex with my wife in full unity with primary purpose of having children and secondary pupose of unity, love, gratification, etc.

That is why I always look to intent. Are you intending to AVOID pregnancy by using a certain method? If you are (this is my view) then you violate and frustrate the primary purpose of marraige. The Church view is that you can avoid pregnancy (i.e. contracept using NFP) and because there is no barrier there (drugs, some physical material) you are still open to life. I “personally” and through reasearch into previous teaching of the church can NOT reconcile this with the intent to avoid pregnancy (i.e. contracept).

Abstaining from sex for a period of time when both spouses consent is fully valid and is NOT contraception provided there is a grave reason (My litmous test: medical problem that would threaten woman’s health or a potentional new life (think drugs, etc.), severe mental issues such as debilitating depression, mania, etc., Surgery or othert Injury, etc.)
The intent here is not to AVOID conception, but to cure the problem or issue at hand. If you have surgery, you must heal first. The act of abstaining is to allow for yourself or your spouse to heal and not to avoid conception.

 

[PaulinVA]

Moon, we just disagree.

I think I’ll follow the Church.

 

[LJN21]

There is a difference in intent. If you are INTENDING to AVOID GETTING PREGNANT then you are using a form for CONTRACEPTION (The meaning of contra=againt and ception is from the word conceive. So BIRTH CONTROL=AGAINST CONCEPTION. NFP is a FORM of contraception. It is looking to avoid conceiving a child. ALL of the secular polls support my position that NFP IS a form of contraception.

This is wrong. NFP is NOT a form of contraception. Contraception is something that ACTIVELY interferes with conception. NFP is inaction to avoid conception. You might not see the difference but is there and it is THAT subtle difference that makes it moral and licit.

Here is the problem with your logic:

Intrinsic evil is never allowed period. Even when talking about double effect the ACTION taken must be moral neutral at best.
Contraception is Intrinsic evil.
Abstinence a a moral good.
By your logic (NFP is contraception) it requires an evil act, which would mean the Church has been teaching heresy form the Magisterium for the last 156 years. That would mean the dogma if infallibility is wrong, and Christ failed to protect his Church.

Your ability to convince yourself that it is something else is amazing. The question was related to how NON-CATHOLICS view NFP. They SEE it as just another alternative to ABC. The intent is the same, the method is different.

Duh? NFP (used as Natural Birth Control) is an alternative to Artificial Birth Control.

The idea that the woman is still open to life and therefore it is not the same is an entirely Catholic idea. So please try to seperate my views and the church’s views on how the Catholic church teaches what NFP is and how society perceives NFP. The two are NOT the same.

Wrong again. Every single Protestant denomination recognized contraception was wrong up until 70 years ago. At no time as ANY church considered periodic abstinence OR abstinence wrong.

As for regulating my sexual desires, sure I can regulate them just fine. Do I intentionally regulate to AVOID the times when conception is most likely? No I do not. I personally ask my wife NOT to tell me when she is fertile and when she is not. In that way when we both desire each other there is not INTENT to avoid pregnancy in our decision to copulate. Obviously I know WHEN she is fertile due to the physical changes “down there”, but that does not change my intent to have sex with my wife in full unity with primary purpose of having children and secondary pupose of unity, love, gratification, etc.

That is why I always look to intent. Are you intending to AVOID pregnancy by using a certain method? If you are (this is my view) then you violate and frustrate the primary purpose of marraige. The Church view is that you can avoid pregnancy (i.e. contracept using NFP) and because there is no barrier there (drugs, some physical material) you are still open to life. I “personally” and through reasearch into previous teaching of the church can NOT reconcile this with the intent to avoid pregnancy (i.e. contracept).

Again your wrong. I have asked for proof of your research in Church teaching and so far you have provided an out of context bible versus not even talking about avoid pregnancy and how you feel ONE Doctor of the Church felt who believe that human sexual was a direct result of our fallen human nature. You also completely dismiss my actual Church statements dating from 1853.

Abstaining from sex for a period of time when both spouses consent is fully valid and is NOT contraception provided there is a grave reason (My litmous test: medical problem that would threaten woman’s health or a potentional new life (think drugs, etc.), severe mental issues such as debilitating depression, mania, etc., Surgery or othert Injury, etc.)
The intent here is not to AVOID conception, but to cure the problem or issue at hand. If you have surgery, you must heal first. The act of abstaining is to allow for yourself or your spouse to heal and not to avoid conception.

Your logic is incredible. So for you its perfectly reasonable to actively avoid conception buy not having sex at all while your wife heals form whatever because pregnancy would be unsafe, but it would be wrong to chart and use infertile days to renew your wedding vows with your wife while she heals because pregnancy would be unsafe.

 

[agapewolf]

By moon:

Your ability to convince yourself that it is something else is amazing

Moon,

We think your inability to get this is amazing.

It is absolutely impossible to contradict an INaction. Something that doesn’t exist.This is basic philosophy, or physics, or chemistry 101.

It is impossible for NOT having sex (in its simple understanding) to be Contraceptive.

 

[maryjk]

The 67% of American Catholics who approve of sex outside of marriage don’t all of a sudden become orthodox when they get married, if they aren’t already.

But sometimes having a child will change a person.

Before the birth of our child:
I missed Mass, regularly
I lived with my future husband, then got married in a court house
I used artificial birth control, the pill

After the birth of our child:
we were married in the Church
I never miss Mass, unless I am very sick
I use NFP
(I am sure lots of people were praying for this to happen)

Moon, we just disagree.

I think I’ll follow the Church.

I am thankful that we have the Church to follow.

So, I too will follow what the Church teaches.