Natural Family Planning... "Just Reasons?"

[baylee]

Can someone post the survey where the majority of all Catholics in our country were polled, and the stats were given? I feel like all this data is floating out there (I wasn’t asked to participate in the poll) and I’m totally unaware of it. Anyone have *actual surveyed data *showing the reasons people give for using NFP and for using ABC?

Before we say…“many people use NFP for this or that reason…” let’s have some real life statistics to back this up, other than that…this is all hearsay and speculation as to why Catholics are using NFP.

I’m not sure whether you’re being serious about some survey out there or if you’re just giving me a hard time for making an assertion without specifics to back it up. Regardless, I am making my comments based upon the reasons I see given on this site compared to reasons given on a secular site. The reasons for most couples are very similar (economic, medical, etc.).

 

[moon1234]

By your own admission people are on CAF to learn more about Catholicism. I am here to learn more. It doesn’t help me at all for you on one hand to say I have serious enough reasons for NFP, but then for you to condemn those who use NFP to avoid children on the other. As I’ve said (it feels like 100x), the reason most people give you for not having another child is not necessarily the real or only reason for the limitation. IMO you are trying to perpetuate self-doubt and self-loathing. I have enough self-doubt myself to continually try to research the Church’s position on such matters. Since you’re opinions are not in 100% accord w/ the Church I should feel confident. However, I am the type of person who is never entirely confident of their decision. So you are - especially since I’ve pointed it out to you several times now - fostering this lack of confidence and worsening it.

The Church says emphatically that periodic abstinence is acceptable for serious/grave reasons that are up to the couple to decide. God will judge all. Its not your place to place me in the same category as those who avail the ‘goods’ from PP to end their child’s lives. Its not charitable, nice, or Christian for you to do so - even if your intention was not to personally affront me. Your implication was enough and I hazard a guess to say that you knew it when you posted it.

Put it this way. If you don’t use NFP at all and just trust God, you will be 100% guranteed to be within acceptable practice with the Church.

It really boils down to a very simple evaluation:

If you use NFP solely to avoid children and do not have a grave or serious reason, it is not acceptable. All of us KNOW what grave and serious mean. We want to find ways around those grave/serious reasons and justify our reasons.

You are searching for a list of serious reasons, but none exists. That is the problem. If you are left up to discern for yourself what is serious and what is not, how do you do that? What is serious? The whole question is arbitrary.

Look to tradition and see how people lived in the past. How did they deal with the same questions? How did previous saints teach? Look at yourself from Chirst’s point of view. Ask St. Agustine to intercede for you.

As for my PP comment. If you had such a strong reaction then think to yourself why you did? I get called all kinds of names when I put forth such questions. When I press people WHY they react that way I usually do not get an answer. I have the same reaction you did at times, but on different aspects of my life where I (deep down) know I need to clarify my knowledge so I know how to live my life. Maybe I know what I am doing is not quite right or it is, but I am not comfortable with they way I am carrying it out.

 

[baylee]

Put it this way. If you don’t use NFP at all and just trust God, you will be 100% guranteed to be within acceptable practice with the Church.

It really boils down to a very simple evaluation:

If you use NFP solely to avoid children and do not have a grave or serious reason, it is not acceptable. All of us KNOW what grave and serious mean. We want to find ways around those grave/serious reasons and justify our reasons.

You are searching for a list of serious reasons, but none exists. That is the problem. If you are left up to discern for yourself what is serious and what is not, how do you do that? What is serious? The whole question is arbitrary.

Look to tradition and see how people lived in the past. How did they deal with the same questions? How did previous saints teach? Look at yourself from Chirst’s point of view. Ask St. Agustine to intercede for you.

I get what you are saying moon. I will say, however, that I think that most Catholics that want to find ways around grave reasons will just use ABC…it’s a lot easier than NFP. And yes, that is an opinion and I have no hard facts to back it up.

 

[LJN21]

By your own admission people are on CAF to learn more about Catholicism. I am here to learn more. It doesn’t help me at all for you on one hand to say I have serious enough reasons for NFP, but then for you to condemn those who use NFP to avoid children on the other. As I’ve said (it feels like 100x), the reason most people give you for not having another child is not necessarily the real or only reason for the limitation. IMO you are trying to perpetuate self-doubt and self-loathing. I have enough self-doubt myself to continually try to research the Church’s position on such matters. Since you’re opinions are not in 100% accord w/ the Church I should feel confident. However, I am the type of person who is never entirely confident of their decision. So you are - especially since I’ve pointed it out to you several times now - fostering this lack of confidence and worsening it.

The Church says emphatically that periodic abstinence is acceptable for serious/grave reasons that are up to the couple to decide. God will judge all. Its not your place to place me in the same category as those who avail the ‘goods’ from PP to end their child’s lives. Its not charitable, nice, or Christian for you to do so - even if your intention was not to personally affront me. Your implication was enough and I hazard a guess to say that you knew it when you posted it.

Had a nice long post that said exaclty this and it got lost, what is it with the reset button on the computer and little kids wanting to push it.

Moon-

You can’t say your not judging people and then say that avoiding children is wrong. Anyone regardless of how confident they are in there just reasons for avoiding are going to call you to task for that. This is also a MAJOR reason my husband and I left the traditionalist Church (FSSP) that I grew up in. The holier than thou, mini pope, nothing said or done after 1962 holds any weight or is not licit attitude is just wrong.

 

[moon1234]

Had a nice long post that said exaclty this and it got lost, what is it with the reset button on the computer and little kids wanting to push it.

Moon-

You can’t say your not judging people and then say that avoiding children is wrong. Anyone regardless of how confident they are in there just reasons for avoiding are going to call you to task for that. This is also a MAJOR reason my husband and I left the traditionalist Church (FSSP) that I grew up in. The holier than thou, mini pope, nothing said or done after 1962 holds any weight or is not licit attitude is just wrong.

This really depends on the parish and the priest. Some are very rigid in their beliefs. This is why there is so much push back at any talks with the SSPX. The SSPX want difinitve answers on many teachings of VII documents. The current makeup of much of the magesterium does not want to have anything from the last 60 years put up to the scrutiny of tradition. This is off topic, but it does explain why you may have had that type of reaction from members of the FSSP. People get tired of always being beat up for holding to traditional values. Sometimes they harden their responses.

There is a difference between judging a person and making them judge themselves. I state what I believe and what saints through the history of the church have held. I never personally judged anyone. I do take issue with the thought process that some use to justify their use of NFP. Those people who are using NFP for that purpose may feel personally attacked, but that was not my goal nor my intention. My intention was for people to examine their mindset for using NFP. Why are you using it? That was a rhetorical question.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Put it this way. IF your reason is serious, then you should feel no hurt or disdain. You should be comfortable in your choice and know you are doing what Our Lord and church asks.

If you conscience tells you otherwise, then you need to do some soul searching. This is what I had to do to solidify my beliefs. I am comfortable in knowing that I am not walking a fine line. I don’t worry if I am doing something that our Lord may disapprove of.

I am not trying to Judge you. I am trying to make you judge yourself. If you Judge the way you live and determine through prayer that what you are doing is right, then you should feel no hurt from my posts. I apologize if you do.

Wow, I get home from work and now I get a different response… because earlier in this thread you said this:

Because your primary goal is to AVOID having children. If you nurse your children and you continue to have sex whenever both you decide, then you are not frustrating the possibility of getting pregnant. You took no deliberate action to lessen the possibility of you conceiving a child.

If you deliberatly exclude certain days of the month to avoid having a child then on THOSE days you are being closed to the possibility of life. You are then having sex purposefully on days when you KNOW you will be less likely to have a child. If you have wierd swings in your cycle and just have sex whenever without worry if this day or that may be more fertile, then you are open to life whenever it may come.

If you are such a woman and use examination of mucus, discharge, moisture, etc. and tell your husband, not today I am fertile, then you deliberatly frustrate the primary purpose of marraige.

So which is it?

 

[moon1234]

Wow, I get home from work and now I get a different response… because earlier in this thread you said this:

So which is it?

These two posts of mine are both in agreement. Ask yourself why are you breast feeding? Is it to avoid having more children or to feed your child? If you are doing it strictly for the former then you would be subverting the primary purpose of marraige. If you are doing it for the latter, then you are fine. The fact your breast feeding keeps your fertility low is just a side effect of your breast feeding. In the latter case you are not intentially avoiding sex to prevent pregnancy.

What is your mindset? What is your reason for doing it? I guess I should have been more clear on that from the get go. It really boils down to intent.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Put it this way. If you don’t use NFP at all and just trust God, you will be 100% guranteed to be within acceptable practice with the Church.

It really boils down to a very simple evaluation:
**
If you use NFP solely to avoid children and do not have a grave or serious reason, it is not acceptable. All of us KNOW what grave and serious mean. We want to find ways around those grave/serious reasons and justify our reasons.**

You are searching for a list of serious reasons, but none exists. That is the problem. If you are left up to discern for yourself what is serious and what is not, how do you do that? What is serious? The whole question is arbitrary.

Look to tradition and see how people lived in the past. How did they deal with the same questions? How did previous saints teach? Look at yourself from Chirst’s point of view. Ask St. Agustine to intercede for you.

As for my PP comment. If you had such a strong reaction then think to yourself why you did? I get called all kinds of names when I put forth such questions. When I press people WHY they react that way I usually do not get an answer. I have the same reaction you did at times, but on different aspects of my life where I (deep down) know I need to clarify my knowledge so I know how to live my life. Maybe I know what I am doing is not quite right or it is, but I am not comfortable with they way I am carrying it out.

So you DO believe NFP is valid for a serious/grave reason?
I’m not asking WHAT that reason is… just as long as it truly IS justified… it’s okay?

 

[LJN21]

These two posts of mine are both in agreement. Ask yourself why are you breast feeding? Is it to avoid having more children or to feed your child? If you are doing it strictly for the former then you would be subverting the primary purpose of marraige. If you are doing it for the latter, then you are fine. The fact your breast feeding keeps your fertility low is just a side effect of your breast feeding. In the latter case you are not intentially avoiding sex to prevent pregnancy.

What is your mindset? What is your reason for doing it? I guess I should have been more clear on that from the get go. It really boils down to intent.

So are the women that breastfeed till the child is 5 to avoid pregnancy sinning?

What about in my case my fertility comes back in 3 months while breastfeeding on demand. When I get pregnant again my milk drys up. This has happened 3 times now in 3.5 years, all cases the baby was less than 6 months. What if I use NFP to be able to breastfeed my baby past 6 months?

 

[moon1234]

So you DO believe NFP is valid for a serious/grave reason?
I’m not asking WHAT that reason is… just as long as it truly IS justified… it’s okay?

That is the current teaching of the church and I accept that. I do not practice it however, but that is my choice and is acceptable as well. In the past St. Paul and St. Agustine held that it was not acceptable. This is why I do not use NFP. If the early teachers of the faith did not find it acceptable, then I have a hard time justifying it. I have no serious reason.

I take exception with what many consider serious. For a personal example here is one that is dear to my heart.

My sister married a non-catholic. He is a non practicing Luthern. His God is Brett Favre who used to be the Quarter Back of the Green Bay Packers. He agreed to raise any children Catholic. Ok. Fine and dandy.

After my sister had her first child he told her no more children period. He was not having any more. (I told my sister as much before they married.) My sister now routinely practicies NFP so as to deliberatly avoid having children. She is using NFP solely for avoiding children.

My sister calls my wife several times a year panicked that she is pregnant and asks what she should do. My wife tells her to calm down and it would be a blessing if she was pregnant. My sister responds that it would be a disaster.

I have heard this same story from MANY of my firends. They all claim to be Good Catholics and they were taught NFP was acceptable. I have tried to explain the same things I have posted here, namely that the reason must be serious. They all say “Well it is, I don’t want my spouse mad at me.”

That is why I take such great exception to the way NFP is taught and understood by so many. My sister never really researched her faith. She just did what she was told was ok without any understanding of the implications. It now causes here lots of stress and worry.

How different her life would be were both parents open to life. As it stands, she and her friends are more worried about having enough money for cars, vacation, etc. than living their Catholic faith.

This is just ONE example that I have seen. I could give you dozens more from people that are NOT related to me.

 

[moon1234]

So are the women that breastfeed till the child is 5 to avoid pregnancy sinning?

What about in my case my fertility comes back in 3 months while breastfeeding on demand. When I get pregnant again my milk drys up. This has happened 3 times now in 3.5 years, all cases the baby was less than 6 months. What if I use NFP to be able to breastfeed my baby past 6 months?

Again mindset. Are you doing it to feed your child or to avoid getting pregnant? Simple question, simple answer.

My wife usually stops when the child can clearly speak. It was embarassing when we would be in church and the child would shout “I want boobie now. I’m Hungry”. She usually decides to stop around the age of two. However, breastfeeding is not very effective for her is spacing children. Sometimes we go a year and a half sometimes 4-5 months. We just don’t worry about it.

My wife was in an car accident and had back surgery as well. She was unable to walk for a month and had physical therapy for several more after that. We did not have ANY sex for a LONG time. That was very hard! It would have qualified as serious for NFP, but we did NOT want to risk her back should she get pregnant. So we did NOT have ANY sex. It was VERY hard. More so for me I think than her as she was in pain for a long time. I left it up to her to tell me when her body thought it would be ok should she become pregnant. The doctor said one year is standard, but it is up to her once her spinal fusion was complete. Which was at six months and when we started having sex again. She got pregnant at 10.5 months and had a healthy baby girl.

 

[LJN21]

That is the current teaching of the church and I accept that. I do not practice it however, but that is my choice and is acceptable as well. In the past St. Paul and St. Agustine held that it was not acceptable. This is why I do not use NFP. If the early teachers of the faith did not find it acceptable, then I have a hard time justifying it. I have no serious reason.

I take exception with what many consider serious. For a personal example here is one that is dear to my heart.

My sister married a non-catholic. He is a non practicing Luthern. His God is Brett Favre who used to be the Quarter Back of the Green Bay Packers. He agreed to raise any children Catholic. Ok. Fine and dandy.

After my sister had her first child he told her no more children period. He was not having any more. (I told my sister as much before they married.) My sister now routinely practicies NFP so as to deliberatly avoid having children. She is using NFP solely for avoiding children.

My sister calls my wife several times a year panicked that she is pregnant and asks what she should do. My wife tells her to calm down and it would be a blessing if she was pregnant. My sister responds that it would be a disaster.

I have heard this same story from MANY of my firends. They all claim to be Good Catholics and they were taught NFP was acceptable. I have tried to explain the same things I have posted here, namely that the reason must be serious. They all say “Well it is, I don’t want my spouse mad at me.”

That is why I take such great exception to the way NFP is taught and understood by so many. My sister never really researched her faith. She just did what she was told was ok without any understanding of the implications. It now causes here lots of stress and worry.

How different her life would be were both parents open to life. As it stands, she and her friends are more worried about having enough money for cars, vacation, etc. than living their Catholic faith.

This is just ONE example that I have seen. I could give you dozens more from people that are NOT related to me.

Not to sound cold… but … the Church also used to forbid marriage outside the Church. Had that been followed and she married a guy IN the Church that believes fully the teaching of the Church this would be a non-issue. The problem here isn’t NFP or serious reason but a marriage problem caused by marrying someone that doesn’t share your beliefs and Faith.

Look at it this way, whats worse her using NFP to keep her husband happy or him getting sterilized or using a condom because she won’t use NFP?

 

[LJN21]

Again mindset. Are you doing it to feed your child or to avoid getting pregnant? Simple question, simple answer.

How is that serious cause though. I could just go out and buy formula. gag

My wife usually stops when the child can clearly speak. It was embarassing when we would be in church and the child would shout “I want boobie now. I’m Hungry”. She usually decides to stop around the age of two. However, breastfeeding is not very effective for her is spacing children. Sometimes we go a year and a half sometimes 4-5 months. We just don’t worry about it.

I’d love to just make it to a year with one of the babies with out having to feed them nasty formula.

My wife was in an car accident and had back surgery as well. She was unable to walk for a month and had physical therapy for several more after that. We did not have ANY sex for a LONG time. That was very hard! It would have qualified as serious for NFP, but we did NOT want to risk her back should she get pregnant. So we did NOT have ANY sex. It was VERY hard. More so for me I think than her as she was in pain for a long time. I left it up to her to tell me when her body thought it would be ok should she become pregnant. The doctor said one year is standard, but it is up to her once her spinal fusion was complete. Which was at six months and when we started having sex again. She got pregnant at 10.5 months and had a healthy baby girl.

Thats one of the reasons I think its truly hard to use NFP in an incorrect way IF you are truly trying to follow the will of God. The only way we can even make it work is with the grace of God helping us with self mastery. Most of the Catholics who use NFP have huge families and anything but the contraceptive mentality or have been sterilized/use contraception. I’ve yet to actually meet someone that uses NFP to strictly avoid having kids cause they just don’t want anymore.

 

[moon1234]

Not to sound cold… but … the Church also used to forbid marriage outside the Church. Had that been followed and she married a guy IN the Church that believes fully the teaching of the Church this would be a non-issue. The problem here isn’t NFP or serious reason but a marriage problem caused by marrying someone that doesn’t share your beliefs and Faith.

Look at it this way, whats worse her using NFP to keep her husband happy or him getting sterilized or using a condom because she won’t use NFP?

You are exactly right. I encouraged my sister to help her now husband into the church so to speak. He would have nothing of it. SHE made that choice. I pray for her every day and hope that his midset will change.

With that said, I still tell her that what she is doing is wrong. She is comprising her faith and risking her immortal soul. How do you answer to God for that. I would be crappin my pants thinking about it. She needs to be firm with him and tell him that he made a commitment to her and this family. He needs to fulfill his marraige vows when he promised before God and US that he would accept children willingly.

When I met my wife she was non-catholic. Her parents called themselves Luthern, but never went to church. Her grandmother was a devout Catholic, but died when my wife was very young. This left a scar that took a long time to hear. My wife saw it as God taking her Grammy instead of Grammy getting to go and be with God in heaven.

When I proposed to my wife I told her I needed a good Catholic wife or I could not marry her. I told her it was her choice if she wanted to become Catholic and I would help her in the process. She thought about it for a week or so. Which was very troubling for me as I thought I would lose her. She ultimately said yes and we went for one on one instruction with the parish priest.

Now she knows more about her faith than most of my family who were cradle Catholics. She made a commitment to the faith, herself and her family.

 

[moon1234]

How is that serious cause though. I could just go out and buy formula. gag

It is not a serious cause because non is required. If they have sex whenever while breastfeeding they are not doing anything intentionally to avoid a child. If they said to themselves “Lets breastfeed just so we won’t get pregnant” then it would be wrong. I don’t know many people who breastfeed JUST for that reason. Most moms I know breastfeed because it is good food for the baby.

 

[LJN21]

You are exactly right. I encouraged my sister to help her now husband into the church so to speak. He would have nothing of it. SHE made that choice. I pray for her every day and hope that his midset will change.

With that said, I still tell her that what she is doing is wrong. She is comprising her faith and risking her immortal soul. How do you answer to God for that. I would be crappin my pants thinking about it. She needs to be firm with him and tell him that he made a commitment to her and this family. He needs to fulfill his marraige vows when he promised before God and US that he would accept children willingly.

You still have to tread lightly. The bottom line is she isn’t doing anything selfish by trying to keep him happy. He is the selfish one. My guess based on other situations like this there are other threats at play here. If NFP doesn’t work he’ll go do XYZ which if she did get pregnant while the baby would be a blessing the execution of his threats would be a disaster.

When I met my wife she was non-catholic. Her parents called themselves Luthern, but never went to church. Her grandmother was a devout Catholic, but died when my wife was very young. This left a scar that took a long time to hear. My wife saw it as God taking her Grammy instead of Grammy getting to go and be with God in heaven.

When I proposed to my wife I told her I needed a good Catholic wife or I could not marry her. I told her it was her choice if she wanted to become Catholic and I would help her in the process. She thought about it for a week or so. Which was very troubling for me as I thought I would lose her. She ultimately said yes and we went for one on one instruction with the parish priest.

Now she knows more about her faith than most of my family who were cradle Catholics. She made a commitment to the faith, herself and her family.

I’m happy it worked out for you

 

[moon1234]

You still have to tread lightly. The bottom line is she isn’t doing anything selfish by trying to keep him happy. He is the selfish one. My guess based on other situations like this there are other threats at play here. If NFP doesn’t work he’ll go do XYZ which if she did get pregnant while the baby would be a blessing the execution of his threats would be a disaster.

She knows who I am. I have been vocal my whole life about things I care about. Some probably think we are a little flippant with each other, but we have always been that way.

 

[LJN21]

It is not a serious cause because non is required. If they have sex whenever while breastfeeding they are not doing anything intentionally to avoid a child. If they said to themselves “Lets breastfeed just so we won’t get pregnant” then it would be wrong. I don’t know many people who breastfeed JUST for that reason. Most moms I know breastfeed because it is good food for the baby.

I know plenty of people (all in the NFP is wrong crowd regardless of what the Church says) who breastfeed as long as they possibly can to avoid being fertile again and then lament the fact the baby self wend and they are fertile again…

 

[LJN21]

That is the current teaching of the church and I accept that. I do not practice it however, but that is my choice and is acceptable as well. In the past St. Paul and St. Agustine held that it was not acceptable. This is why I do not use NFP. If the early teachers of the faith did not find it acceptable, then I have a hard time justifying it. I have no serious reason.

St. Agustine didn’t think married couples could have sex period without there being some element of lust involved and therfor the act was always sinful. Most of his ideas on human sexuality were flawed by his own playboy past.

Where exactly does St. Paul teach that only having sex on infertial days is not acceptable.

The teaching Magisterium of the Church as always upheld it as licit means to avoid children.

 

[moon1234]

St. Agustine didn’t think married couples could have sex period without there being some element of lust involved and therfor the act was always sinful. Most of his ideas on human sexuality were flawed by his own playboy past.

Where exactly does St. Paul teach that only having sex on infertial days is not acceptable.

The teaching Magisterium of the Church as always upheld it as licit means to avoid children.

Saint Paul said men and women, should they need to be apart should be apart for a short time and shouls live chastely. To me this means no sex when there is a serious reason. Not trying to avoid children.

St. Augustine allowed for sex in marriage and stressed it should always be in the light of begetting children. He was also a Bishop who’s chief responsibility is as a teacher in the church.

He would have serious problems with the current method of NFP.