Natural Family Planning... "Just Reasons?"

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adopting fully the “contraceptive mentality”
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I personally have a disagreement w/ the thought that NFP can actually be used w/ a fully contraceptive mentality. The very nature of NFP is one of self-sacrifice. That in & of itself is contrary to the contraceptive mentality. Even if a couple decides not to have children for what others may judge as non-grave reasons, if they are employing NFP they are NOT using a contraceptive mentality. Let me further explain my point of view.

Contraceptive mentality means that the couple wants to have pleasurable sex w/o consequence, responsibility, and thinking of the other partner. There is no unitive or procreative aspect because neither can be fulfilled while contraception is in place. NFP counters this by requiring 1) self-discipline, 2) self-sacrifice, and 3) a continual open-ness to life. 4) NFP also glorifies God’s creation and brings husband and wife closer together in their understanding of God’s wonderous deeds within their own bodies.
  1. Self-discipline is required in NFP, but not contraception. In NFP the woman tracks her fertility faithfully day in & day out. This requires much discipline especially if one’s life is full of children, work, house-keeping, etc. The man must discipline himself to listening to his wife’s cycles.
  2. Self-sacrifice is required by NFP, but not contraception. It is a biological fact that women are more easily ‘turned on’ during ovulation. However, practicing NFP requires women to subvert their desires and sacrifice their pleasure at enjoying their husband during their fertile times. The husband also must practice self-sacrifice because it is again a biological fact that the hormones/phermones given off by a fertile female are detectable and highly desirable to a male. He must deny his pleasure at enjoying his wife in this very healthy biological way during her fertile times.
  3. Open-ness to life is a foundation of NFP. Even though it is cited as being 99% effective (perfect use), NFP ALWAYS simply uses what God designed for our family planning purpose. Contraception completely subverts God’s design by masking the natural/biological function of ovulation and sexual intercourse. All manuals for NFP that I have seen recognize that even ‘safe’ times for intercourse when avoiding pregnancy can (and sometimes do) result in pregnancy. Women are not robots and God’s will sometimes manifests itself in unusual cycles.
  4. NFP glorifies God by letting the couple realize that ultimately God is in control of their lives and those of their children, be they unborn or born. God designed the human body as male & female to allow us a taste of His fullness of life. Only by joining as one flesh and giving of oneself completely can we acheive this. This is not possible through contraception b/c there is always a separateness present. However, w/ NFP is it almost impossible to separate God’s gift of the human body to one’s spouse from sexual joining. There are no barriers and no tainting of the body with NFP. Instead we work with the body to produce the results God intended.
I know one couple who is using NFP to unconditionally (at the moment) avoid another pregnancy. However, since they use NFP & only NFP, they are still strengthening their marriage because of the self-discipline, self-sacrifice, and open-ness to life that is embodied in NFP. I do not think it is possible to remove these three contraceptive counter-actions from NFP - no matter how strictly you follow NFP to avoid pregnancy. These parts are always present in NFP and always will be unless there is an addition of a contraceptive act or device. I am also of the thought that a couple that is practicing NFP will most likely change their mind at one point or another. This decision will happen due to the nature of NFP and its God-glorying effects.
 
While NFP may be touted by the contraceptive minded as “Catholic birth control” it is still much more open to new life. Even when practicing NFP to avoid pregnancy, the intimacy remains & the procreative ability remains - something that is definitely NOT present in artificial means of birth spacing/control. What I mean is this… Any time a man & woman are sexually intimate without artificial barriers (chemical or physical) conception CAN occur. sperm cells that are in the woman’s reproductive canal can survive and fertilize for over 24 hours. A couple of our ‘oopsies’ (even though they ended in miscarriage) were conceived this way. I agree that many couples do attempt to avoid pregnancy after 2 children and/or try to space their children w/ less than serious/grave reasons, but if they are using NFP they are still within God’s given limits of the human body.

Also most people who practice NFP aren’t contraceptively minded. Contraceptive mindedness in my opinion is debasing intimacy for mere pleasure. If a couple uses only NFP, while they have a good deal of fun, they also restrain themselves and respect one another’s bodies. This restraint & respect is in my opinion one of the fundamental reasons why a couple using NFP, even if its not for a serious reason, to avoid pregnancy, shouldn’t be equated to a couple using artificial birth control. Artificial birth control completely removes the necessity for restraint & even respect for one another. A couple using ABC can be intimate at any time, but a couple using NFP must take the risks and weigh the consequences if they want to be intimate at any time. This acceptance of the consequences and the use of God’s wonderful design of the human body makes NFP much harder to equate to ABC. When the man restrains himself to prevent his wife’s pregnancy (for whatever reason, even if it isn’t serious), he is showing her the utmost respect for her as long as it is her wish. The same is true for the woman who opens herself to her husband when she is unsure of her fertility. Together they bear the burden of creating and welcoming new life if God wills it. NFP calls both man & wife to sacrifice for one another - even if the intention to avoid a pregnancy is there. That is, in my opinion, is directly contrary to being contraceptive minded.
 
Yes, there is a definite difference between ABC and NFP. The morality of these actions is different, and NFP includes a lot of things that counteract the sins of contraception.

However, NFP can still be used wrongly. One way it can still allow a “buying into the contraceptive mentality” is by a lack of faith and surrender. Couples who use NFP must be careful not to get the mentality that they have total control over their bodies and their fertility. As someone mentioned earlier, this isn’t true – obviously there can still be slip-ups, and that 1% of cases where pregnancy results even though they were using the method perfectly. But the attitude still remains: the attitude that says, “We have to space our children just so, or we’re not good parents,” or “Five children is as much as anyone should ever have,” and so on.

I have seen it all the time among Catholic families, and I do think it’s something to watch out for. After all, there’s this thing called trust in God, and it doesn’t stop being important with regard to this one little thing and nothing else.

The worst of it is when you find people feeling guilty or questioning themselves because they have gotten pregnant and are afraid that they were “irresponsible” by not waiting a certain amount of time, or not saving up a certain amount of money first. I hate anything that would make people feel guilty for trusting God, who watches out for even the sparrows.
 
However, NFP can still be used wrongly. One way it can still allow a “buying into the contraceptive mentality” is by a lack of faith and surrender.
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I agree somewhat. As I said in previous posts, I think it would be next to impossible for a couple to use NFP w/ a lack of faith & surrender. After-all the entire mechanism of NFP (those that don’t espouse ‘protection’) is self-sacrifice & self-discipline. As a previous poster indicated, after a certain period of time, the couple that is contraceptive mentally will fail to avoid using contraception - ie they’ll want that extra measure of ‘protection’ from a condom, spermicide, etc. However, at that point they are no longer truly using NFP. The Church maintains that some couples are called to continual continence (sorry if I spelled that wrong). The Church encourages periodic continence (both as NFP and out of respect for one another during illness, etc) for all couples. Eventually, a couple that truly thinks they have ‘control’ over their body & removes God from the equation will stop using NFP only and/or they’ll ‘accidentally’ get pregnant. I don’t think you can separate the self-discipline and self-sacrifice from NFP enough to actually be contraceptively minded w/o crossing the boundary & actually using contraception.

Of course, I can’t say too much. My husband & I aren’t exactly great at the self-discipline or self-sacrifice… That’s why we’ve been pregnant 6 times in the past 2 years. Of course, we have always been open to life - hence the 6 pregnancies. However, it hasn’t been in God’s plans for us to have any more than the one we have (and the one I’m pregnant w/ now hopefully will work out). Even though my husband is non-Catholic & not too keen on NFP or more kids, we haven’t used contraception to avoid. But then again, we obviously haven’t used NFP to avoid either! 😉
 
Serious is also the term used when the catechism refers to mortal sin. Many people split hairs between the translation from Latin of Serious and Grave. That is why ALL OFFICIAL documents of the church are written in Latin. The translation by different entities is ALWAYS nuanced to the particular language.

This causes problems over time as the understanding and meaning of a vernacular word can change while the Latin does not.

NFP, as practiced by most Catholics I have met, is purely contraceptive. It has the same or better effectiveness as ABC in most circumstances. Most couples interested in NFP are interested in it for CONTRACEPTIVE purposes and not serious health, mental, medical reasons.

Spacing children because you “don’t have enough money” or need to “send the kids to college” are NOT serious reasons.
  • Being Mentally unstable
  • Having a serious medical condition
  • Living on the street poor
Are examples of serious, hopefully very temporary serious reasons to ABSTAIN from intercourse? Abstain as in NO SEX period! Ordering sex around a schedule IS frustrating the marital act. If you truly have a serious reason to avoid children then DON’T have sex at all! This will help you decide how truly serious the reason is.

If you are CAPABLE of having sex, but just don’t want children, then you need to re-order you life. Sell the extra or expensive car; stop eating out so much, etc.

Using the knowledge of science to purposely avoid having children is no different than wearing a condom. You are making a concerted effort to avoid children, but continue to gratify yourselves. How extremely selfish.

But, But, we can’t be celibate. We are married and need to have sex. Priests and religious are married too. They are married to the Church! Do you see them constantly complaining about not being able to have sex without the responsibility of having children?

So the next time you think that you need to use NFP, I challenge you to put forth the ABSTAINCE test. Will you both be happy abstaining from ALL sex until whatever serious condition has passed? If the answer is no, then you are essentially contracepting.

Leaving yourself open to life means having sex when the occasion and desire is there. Not when the egg is not.
 
Moon1234, you state that “most couples interested in NFP are interested in it for contraceptive purposes”. How could you possibly know what “most couples” are interested in NFP for? Are you privy to all the private factors that go into determining whether or not one is being called to become parents, for a first or subsequent child? I do not think you know what the inner workings of many couples’ marriages are like. It seems to me you are coming close to judgmentalism here.

Regulation of birth is part of responsible parenthood, as has been set forth in the different documents posted in this thread. God trusts us to co-create with him, and trusts us as a couple to prayerfully use our reason and prudence in the exercise of responsible parenthood.

Now, as it happens, I do agree with you that fertility awareness can be used with a contraceptive mindset, and I agree with you in principle, sort of, about your proposition that couples completely abstain until the serious issue has resolved. My bride and I usually approach it as follows. If, after prayerful consideration, we think there is some serious issue that mitigates against conception in a particular cycle, what is our game plan to change that serious issue, or if you will, what are we actively doing, or planning to do, to remove that impediment to another child?

I suppose my main point here is that I think you are way overstating the case against fertility awareness. Having recourse to infertile times in the cycle is qualitatively different than contraception, of course assuming serious reasons. Remember also that this is the way we have been created.

I also disagree that a couple must be living on the street poor before financial reasons may be taken into account, while I tend to agree in principle that a couple need not have the means to save for college in toto for each child. It is actually not very hard to come up with a situation where a couple is living frugally and there really is no more money in the budget.

Well, anyway, I’ve probably got lots more to say, but this is long enough. More later as time allows.
 
choose_to_love said:
Moon1234, you state that “most couples interested in NFP are interested in it for contraceptive purposes”. How could you possibly know what “most couples” are interested in NFP for? Are you privy to all the private factors that go into determining whether or not one is being called to become parents, for a first or subsequent child?
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I go to some of the NFP meetings to hear what people have to say. So, yes I would say I know what many catholics intentions are. They outright ask if NFP is as good as condoms. The first time I heard this I almost fell off my seat. My own sister is using to avoid having more children for the sole reason of her husband only wants a single child.

Make no mistake that when you hear ANY parent say the ONLY want XX number of kids they are NOT being open to life in their marraige. This lumps about 70-80% of current Catholics in my area into this category, with the only exception being in the traditional groups.
 
moon1234 said:
Using the knowledge of science to purposely avoid having children is no different than wearing a condom. You are making a concerted effort to avoid children, but continue to gratify yourselves. How extremely selfish.
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Luckily, the Church does not agree with you. Trying to force your opinion on others, is, indeed, extremely selfish.
So the next time you think that you need to use NFP, I challenge you to put forth the ABSTAINCE test. Will you both be happy abstaining from ALL sex until whatever serious condition has passed? If the answer is no, then you are essentially contracepting.
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Huh? That is not Church teaching. Please, get with the program and do no make things up.
Leaving yourself open to life means having sex when the occasion and desire is there. Not when the egg is not.
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No, being open to life means that when you find you are pregnant, you are overjoyed. Or trepidatious. Or scared. But, above all, you cherish that new life.
…they are NOT being open to life in their marriage. This lumps about 70-80% of current Catholics in my area into this category, with the only exception being in the traditional groups.
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Oh, of course. Traditional.
 
How many meetings do you go to? What area of the country are you located in?

Moon, respectfully, you know what some small sample of couples who are looking into using the method are interested in NFP for. I do not see how that relates to couples who are actually using the method, nor how that translates into “most” couples. You have a perception based on anecdote. I do not see how you can extrapolate that into “most”.

Conversely, all the folks I know who use NFP have at least four children and/or have fairly obvious (apparently, given the limits of knowledge of the inner workings of some other couple’s marriage) serious reasons to postpone.

Now, I’d agree with you that deciding on one’s own, without any apparent discernment beyond personal preference, is not being open to life.

As far as someone inquiring as to efficacy of the method vs. condoms, how do you know that that couple did not have a serious reason to postpone? If you want to get people to come out of the culture of death, you have to realize, I think, just how countercultural the Church’s vision of marriage is, and how deeply ingrained the secular version can be in people. If someone, poorly catechized, is coming to one of the meetings to which you refer, and has a valid health reason to postpone, isn’t it reasonable for the inquirer to want to know the efficacy?

It’s not that I do not see your points, as applied to the Church at large, but it is coming across, intentionally or not, at least to me, as a little of the “thank you, God, that I’m a ‘traditional catholic,’ and not like those publicans/regular catholics over there” mentality. I assume that’s not how you mean it. I assume that you know the joy of trusting in the Lord (who will never be outdone in generosity), think it’s great, and want everyone to share in it, and all the blessings of children. I know that you do not do any favors to our brothers and sisters in Christ by confirming them in sin, but you may want to consider what is the most effective witness to that truth.
 
moon1234 said:
I go to some of the NFP meetings to hear what people have to say. So, yes I would say I know what many catholics intentions are. They outright ask if NFP is as good as condoms. The first time I heard this I almost fell off my seat. My own sister is using to avoid having more children for the sole reason of her husband only wants a single child.

Make no mistake that when you hear ANY parent say the ONLY want XX number of kids they are NOT being open to life in their marraige. This lumps about 70-80% of current Catholics in my area into this category, with the only exception being in the traditional groups.
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Why would you go to NFP meetings, just to hear what people have to say? It’s not entertainment and really none of your business. I think they need to change the meetings if people are just stopping in just to listen.
70 - 80% of the Catholics in your area, not including the Traditional groups of course:rolleyes:, go to the NFP meetings and tell you this? WOW, that must be some meeting!
 
I agree with choose to love … if you are using NFP to avoid, you should have a “game plan” for changing those things that are keeping you from leaving your marriage open to children right now. Not “oh, well, I’m stressed,” or “ah, too bad, we’re short on money,” but trying to fix the problems. *Could *you live more frugally? Is there something that is making your situation more difficult that it has to be?

Of course, no one else will ever know what your reasons were, and there’s that perennial problem of being judged … non-Catholics think you’re irresponsible for having OH MY GOODNESS, four children, and Catholics think you’re selfish for having only four children. That just annoys me.

Imagine you were giving someone a hard time for not having more children, and they actually had discovered they had the gene for cystic fibrosis, and were avoiding having more children because of this, even though they really wanted more? Or what if you knew a mother who had twelve children, and you criticized her because her kids didn’t seem to be raised very well – she was clearly stressed and spread too thin – and you later found out she was using NFP to the best of her ability, but she was one of those 1% of people who can’t make it work for them, even if they’re doing it right?

We should never judge. But I’m coming on here running my mouth about what I believe to be just causes, because clearly it’s something a lot of people are thinking about and concerned about, and it is important.

By the bye, the fact that someone notices that traditionalists don’t seem to have X problem does not mean that person is a hypocritical, holier-than-thou Pharisee. Talk about stereotypes!
 
Sheila, I don’t think I stereotyped anyone. I was commenting on how that post sounded to me, not stating that all people who have certain beliefs hold the same views as the poster to whom I was responding - - my comments were only directed to one poster; second, I recognize that online, we do not have the contextual cues of inflection, facial expression, body language, etc., and I specifically noted that I assumed the poster did not intend it in the way I thought it sounded. It seems to me if I had written something like, ‘all you traddies and your holier-than-thou providentialism and judgmentalism to NFP are the same’, that would be stereotyping in my mind. In any event, if I caused offense, I beg pardon.
 
So, back on track.

Is “my family is built out and I can’t imagine having any more now” a just reason, in general, for anyone to apply?
 
I have to say that reading through these NFP threads gives me a new outlook on being older and less fertile…possibly not at all. I am so thankful that I do not have to even consider any of this.
 
happymommy said:
Why would you go to NFP meetings, just to hear what people have to say? It’s not entertainment and really none of your business. I think they need to change the meetings if people are just stopping in just to listen.
70 - 80% of the Catholics in your area, not including the Traditional groups of course:rolleyes:, go to the NFP meetings and tell you this? WOW, that must be some meeting!
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Actually what is being taught to parents in NFP classes is my business. It is all of our business. If incorrect information is being passed on to other Catholics, the actions these parents take are a witness to other Catholics and non-catholics and a reflection on the vales of Catholocism.

I encourage all of you to visit your local Diocese and see what material and education they provide on NFP. I would be willing to bet you money that the local diocese have a lay person who teaches NFP and not a priest. The material will most likely push NFP as an alternative to ABC. The material will make no mention that NFP is to be used only for serious reasons. The material will NOT help you define what serious means in light of the traditions of the Catholic church. This leaves the definition up to whatever people THINK is serious.

I am sorry, but many people will spend endless hours justifying their position to continue to contracept. Once you realize when and where NFP can used you will see that it is being seriously abused. If you want more proof that it is being abused, please see Pope BXI comments here:

news.smh.com.au/world/pope-reaffirms-church-opposition-to-contraception-20081003-4tg1.html

I will point out the pertinent phrase:

The 81-year-old pope’s message Friday to a seminar on the encyclical also reaffirmed that the rhythm method is an acceptable form of contraception for couples in “dire circumstances” who need to space their children.

Now if you are using NFP, ask yourself if you situation qualifies as a “Dire Situation.”

Definition of “Dire” according to webster:
1 a: exciting horror b: dismal , oppressive
2: warning of disaster
3 a: desperately urgent b: extreme

Now ask youself if your situation qualifies. I may sound negative, but people need to understand that NFP is NOT an alternative to ABC. It is acceptable in only the most limited of situations.
 
moon, may I suggest you concentrate your efforts on the 95% of Catholics who practice Artificial Birth Control, get sterilized, or support abortions?

Why pick on the 5% who are trying to be faithful to Church teaching?
 
moon1234 said:
Actually what is being taught to parents in NFP classes is my business. It is all of our business. If incorrect information is being passed on to other Catholics, the actions these parents take are a witness to other Catholics and non-catholics and a reflection on the vales of Catholocism.
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That doesn’t mean you should go nosing around at NFP classes to satisfy your curiosity on how “selfish” most Catholics are. Yes we should be correct people if they are wrong but you know what… a couple actually USING NFP to avoid in possibly selfish manor is the LAST thing I’m worried. How about taking up your crusade against something that’s intrinsically evil like abortion or contraception instead of worrying about your neighbors selfishness.
moon1234 said:
I encourage all of you to visit your local Diocese and see what material and education they provide on NFP. I would be willing to bet you money that the local diocese have a lay person who teaches NFP and not a priest. The material will most likely push NFP as an alternative to ABC. The material will make no mention that NFP is to be used only for serious reasons. The material will NOT help you define what serious means in light of the traditions of the Catholic church. This leaves the definition up to whatever people THINK is serious.
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What??? Why in the world do you think a lay (normally its a COUPLE) teaching NFP is bad? Why would a priest that has no clue about women’s fertility except form what he might read in a book be a good thing? As to the definition of serious… I think your the one departing with the tradition of the Church. ignatius.com/magazines/hprweb/bonilla.htm
moon1234 said:
I am sorry, but many people will spend endless hours justifying their position to continue to contracept. Once you realize when and where NFP can used you will see that it is being seriously abused. If you want more proof that it is being abused, please see Pope BXI comments here:

news.smh.com.au/world/pope-reaffirms-church-opposition-to-contraception-20081003-4tg1.html

I will point out the pertinent phrase:

The 81-year-old pope’s message Friday to a seminar on the encyclical also reaffirmed that the rhythm method is an acceptable form of contraception for couples in “dire circumstances” who need to space their children.

Now if you are using NFP, ask yourself if you situation qualifies as a “Dire Situation.”

Definition of “Dire” according to webster:
1 a: exciting horror b: dismal , oppressive
2: warning of disaster
3 a: desperately urgent b: extreme

Now ask youself if your situation qualifies. I may sound negative, but people need to understand that NFP is NOT an alternative to ABC. It is acceptable in only the most limited of situations.
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Sorry that’s not a quote form the Pope but some news guy paraphrasing. Your going to have to find his EXACT WORDS and not ones that support your “you can’t use NFP unless your going to die” stance. Again I think you need to get your noise out of other people conscience and worry about your self.

I find this whole attitude distasteful and judgemental. You have no idea what some of these situations are, you have no idea what would be very serious for them. It ever occur to you the reason the Church hasn’t spelled out exactly what “just” causes are is because it wildly different form couple to couple? Only the COUPLE can possibly know what emotional, physical, yes monetary needs their family has when deciding if its the right time to add another child to the family. On this our previous Pope went so far as to say some cases, “increase in the size of the family would be incompatible with parental duty” (Karol Wojtyla [John Paul II], Love and Responsibility, Ignatius Press, 243). Avoiding children “in certain circumstances may be permissible or even obligatory” (Karol Wojtyla, Person & Community: Selected Essays, Peter Lang Publishing, p. 293)".

My advise to you is to stop worrying so much about your neighbors rods and start working on your own planks.
 
PaulinVA said:
moon, may I suggest you concentrate your efforts on the 95% of Catholics who practice Artificial Birth Control, get sterilized, or support abortions?

Why pick on the 5% who are trying to be faithful to Church teaching?
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First: I am not picking on anyone. I am only pointing out that church teaching on this subject is much more narrow and limited than many here assume it is. Those that are showing an interest in following chuch teaching deserve to know what church tradition is.

I am equally if not more vocal with the other 95% as you label them.
 
moon1234 said:
First: I am not picking on anyone. I am only pointing out that church teaching on this subject is much more narrow and limited than many here assume it is. Those that are showing an interest in following church teaching deserve to know what church tradition is.

I am equally if not more vocal with the other 95% as you label them.
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Then you need to work on your persuasive writing technique.

The judgmental one is working just fine.

Oh, yeah, and please back up, with facts, what you post. As it is, you just come off as thinking you are the only person who knows the Truth. We know that can’t be right.

But, extra points for being able to work “tradition” into each one of your posts.
 
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