Natural Family Planning... "Just Reasons?"

[Em_in_FL]

Serious is also the term used when the catechism refers to mortal sin. Many people split hairs between the translation from Latin of Serious and Grave. That is why ALL OFFICIAL documents of the church are written in Latin. The translation by different entities is ALWAYS nuanced to the particular language.

This causes problems over time as the understanding and meaning of a vernacular word can change while the Latin does not.

NFP, as practiced by most Catholics I have met, is purely contraceptive. It has the same or better effectiveness as ABC in most circumstances. Most couples interested in NFP are interested in it for CONTRACEPTIVE purposes and not serious health, mental, medical reasons.

Spacing children because you “don’t have enough money” or need to “send the kids to college” are NOT serious reasons.

• Being Mentally unstable
• Having a serious medical condition
• Living on the street poor

Are examples of serious, hopefully very temporary serious reasons to ABSTAIN from intercourse? Abstain as in NO SEX period! Ordering sex around a schedule IS frustrating the marital act. If you truly have a serious reason to avoid children then DON’T have sex at all! This will help you decide how truly serious the reason is.

If you are CAPABLE of having sex, but just don’t want children, then you need to re-order you life. Sell the extra or expensive car; stop eating out so much, etc.

Using the knowledge of science to purposely avoid having children is no different than wearing a condom. You are making a concerted effort to avoid children, but continue to gratify yourselves. How extremely selfish.

But, But, we can’t be celibate. We are married and need to have sex. Priests and religious are married too. They are married to the Church! Do you see them constantly complaining about not being able to have sex without the responsibility of having children?

So the next time you think that you need to use NFP, I challenge you to put forth the ABSTAINCE test. Will you both be happy abstaining from ALL sex until whatever serious condition has passed? If the answer is no, then you are essentially contracepting.

Leaving yourself open to life means having sex when the occasion and desire is there. Not when the egg is not.

I encourage you to read Humanae Vitae from BEGINNING TO END!

Here is a beautiful quote:

Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the later they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love.

 

[maryjk]

First: I am not picking on anyone. I am only pointing out that church teaching on this subject is much more narrow and limited than many here assume it is. Those that are showing an interest in following chuch teaching deserve to know what church tradition is.

I am equally if not more vocal with the other 95% as you label them.

In what way? If they aren’t attending NFP classes, how do you know which ones are contracepting? Do you walk around church to find out how many children each couple has, then if it is under a magic number you know?

No one here on earth knows what happens in a couple’s bedroom. It seems that you are taking a little knowledge and coming to a conclusion. Your conclusion could very well be wrong.

Example:
I have been married to the same man for 17 years.
We have one child.
My husband isn’t Catholic.
I wanted to know if NFP would “work” as well as the pill.
Are we using contraception? If we use NFP, do we have a contraceptive mentality?

You don’t know. You are adding 2 and 2 and getting 5. Unless you know EVERYTHING about the couple, you have no idea why they use NFP or why they don’t have a house full of children.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I go to some of the NFP meetings to hear what people have to say. So, yes I would say I know what many catholics intentions are.

Why would you go to NFP meetings, just to hear what people have to say? It’s not entertainment and really none of your business.

Actually what is being taught to parents in NFP classes is my business. It is all of our business. If incorrect information is being passed on to other Catholics, the actions these parents take are a witness to other Catholics and non-catholics and a reflection on the vales of Catholocism.

Moon - Now, I’m not picking on YOU either, BUT (just out of curiosity) how do you find time away from your family (I’m assuming someone talking about NFP is married with children) to sit in on classes that you are not taking yourself?

 

[choose_to_love]

Moon, regarding B16’s comments on the anniversary of HV: I think the article was referring to the Message of His Holiness Benedict XVI on the Occasion of the 40th Anniversary of Paul VI’s Encyclical Humanae Vitae, addressed to Msgr. Livio Melina, President of the JPII Pontifical Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family, dated 2 October 2008. It is available on the Vatican website: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/pont-messages/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20081002_isi_en.html . (I’m not so proficient at posting links, but there it is).

Here is the section (sorry for the long quote) to which the article was apparently referring:

It is true, moreover, that ***serious circumstances *** (emphasis added)may develop in the couple’s growth which make it prudent to space out births or even to suspend them. And it is here that knowledge of the natural rhythms of the woman’s fertility becomes important for the couple’s life. The methods of observation which enable the couple to determine the periods of fertility permit them to administer what the Creator has wisely inscribed in human nature without interfering with the integral significance of sexual giving. In this way spouses, respecting the full truth of their love, will be able to modulate its expression in conformity with these rhythms without taking anything from the totality of the gift of self that union in the flesh expresses. Obviously, this requires maturity in love which is not instantly acquired but involves dialogue and reciprocal listening, as well as a special mastery of the sexual impulse in a journey of growth in virtue.

So, basically, the Vatican translation is “serious circumstances”. To a certain extent this will always, as I understand it, be a function of the translator’s understanding of the meaning, i.e., serious v. grave v. dire.

 

[moon1234]

Moon, regarding B16’s comments on the anniversary of HV: I think the article was referring to the Message of His Holiness Benedict XVI on the Occasion of the 40th Anniversary of Paul VI’s Encyclical Humanae Vitae, addressed to Msgr. Livio Melina, President of the JPII Pontifical Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family, dated 2 October 2008. It is available on the Vatican website: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/pont-messages/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20081002_isi_en.html . (I’m not so proficient at posting links, but there it is).

Here is the section (sorry for the long quote) to which the article was apparently referring:

It is true, moreover, that ***serious circumstances *** (emphasis added)may develop in the couple’s growth which make it prudent to space out births or even to suspend them. And it is here that knowledge of the natural rhythms of the woman’s fertility becomes important for the couple’s life. The methods of observation which enable the couple to determine the periods of fertility permit them to administer what the Creator has wisely inscribed in human nature without interfering with the integral significance of sexual giving. In this way spouses, respecting the full truth of their love, will be able to modulate its expression in conformity with these rhythms without taking anything from the totality of the gift of self that union in the flesh expresses. Obviously, this requires maturity in love which is not instantly acquired but involves dialogue and reciprocal listening, as well as a special mastery of the sexual impulse in a journey of growth in virtue.

So, basically, the Vatican translation is “serious circumstances”. To a certain extent this will always, as I understand it, be a function of the translator’s understanding of the meaning, i.e., serious v. grave v. dire.

This is the letter that I was referring to. I generally receive my info from what many consider traditional sources. I read extensively the teachings of the Church fathers and canonized saints to determine the weight and meaning of future documents. I have always, even since I was a little boy, been taught that serious sin=mortal sin. I have always understood the word serious in the cathecism to mean grave, dire, etc. Most of the news sites I look at also retain the same outlook.

If we look at another paragraph from the same encyclical:

Responsible parenthood, as we use the term here, has one further essential aspect of paramount importance. It concerns the objective moral order which was established by God, and of which a right conscience is the true interpreter. In a word, the exercise of responsible parenthood requires that husband and wife, keeping a right order of priorities, recognize their own duties toward God, themselves, their families and human society.

I would argue that many of todays Catholics do NOT have a properly formed conscience. Their priorities are NOT focused on their call have Children and fulfilling their marraige vows, but rather are focused on materialistic and human focused priorities. They use documents like Humanae Vitae to support their exclusion of additional children to futher these views.

From this it follows that they are not free to act as they choose in the service of transmitting life, as if it were wholly up to them to decide what is the right course to follow. On the contrary, they are bound to ensure that what they do corresponds to the will of God the Creator. The very nature of marriage and its use makes His will clear, while the constant teaching of the Church spells it out.

I just wanted to put forth what tradition in the Church (ie. the past held beliefs and teachings of now saints and church Fathers.) has taught us about the topics at hand. These beliefs can not and should not change based on the current political climate or social norms of the secular world.

Many traditional circles entirely or partially reject Humanae Vitae and Gaudem et Spes because of the severe departure and seeming rupture that it creates without the reading what they teach in the light of prior teaching and beliefs of the church. What once was wrong can not now be right. To hold such a view allows for God to contradict himself. If prior teaching was inspired by God how can current teaching refute the prior? We need a hermenutic of continuity, which these documents, unless read in the light of tradition, can cause great discontinuity.

St. Augustine called the use of means to avoid the birth of a child an ‘evil work:’ a reference to either abortion or contraception or both.”

Pope Pius XI in Casti Connubii soundly refutes the idea that conjugal love can take priority over the primary purpose of bringing children into the world.

“THE ACT OF MARRIAGE EXERCISED FOR PLEASURE ONLY IS ENTIRELY FREE OF ALL FAULT AND VENIAL DEFECT.” (Denz. 1159) -Condemned by Pope Innocent XI.

If you want to look to Natural Law then tell me how many animals have sex when the female is NOT fertile? How many animals have sex ONLY when the female is not fertile? If animals behaved the way humans do today, many species would be extinct.

 

[moon1234]

One final comment.

Think about how Jesus chose to come into this world. His mother and human foster father were on the streets and could not even get a room at the inn. He was born in a barn (essentially) surrounded by animals.

Mary did not say to Gabriel, “Do until me as you have said, unless I won’t have enough money for his college, unless I won’t have a nice home, until I can provide…”

You start to see that from the very conception of Christ he wants us to be open to the possibility of life at all points in our life.

 

[LongingForLight]

Actually what is being taught to parents in NFP classes is my business. It is all of our business. If incorrect information is being passed on to other Catholics, the actions these parents take are a witness to other Catholics and non-catholics and a reflection on the vales of Catholocism.

Correct. So talk to a teaching couple about what they teach and ask for their slides and notes, unless you are there to actually learn the material or support someone who is learning as a mentor. My DH and I have shared some personal information in our NFP classes, and I would not have appreciated a spectator being present. This was a horrendous breach of ettiquette on your part, unless you had additional reasons for being there that you’ve chosen not to reveal to us. Your presence could have actually inhibited any discussion of discerning just reasons; if I was teaching, at least, I would not be so thoughtless as to ask students to discuss that particular topic while a spectator was present.

I encourage all of you to visit your local Diocese and see what material and education they provide on NFP. I would be willing to bet you money that the local diocese have a lay person who teaches NFP and not a priest. The material will most likely push NFP as an alternative to ABC. The material will make no mention that NFP is to be used only for serious reasons. The material will NOT help you define what serious means in light of the traditions of the Catholic church. This leaves the definition up to whatever people THINK is serious.

Yes, it is taught by a lay couple who is trained by the CCL. They are personal friends of ours, with five beautiful children - not sure of ages, but the eldest hasn’t made First Communion yet. Obviously not contraceptive. The class I attended when engaged (taught by a different couple with seven children) included an entire class on prayerfully discerning serious reasons to avoid. If the class were taught by a priest, it would be far less useful, as the couples share personal experiences (VERY personal experiences, BTW, that probably would not be shared before a spectator) with their classes. At least, in my experience.

I know many of the people they’ve taught, as they also started a group that meets weekly to pray the Rosary together with our families and many of their NFP students have joined. Believe me, you don’t see a contraceptive mentality at all. Most families have four or five children, with the oldest being eight years old or younger. You don’t ask about gaps in children’s ages unless you are a good friend because the most common explanations are infertility or miscarriages - not NFP use or “serious reasons to avoid”. Children conceived while abstaining are referred to as “miracle babies”, and are considered an extra blessing because the child clearly is so strongly desired by God.

My closest friend is expecting a miracle baby right now, in fact. She has difficult pregnancies, homeschools her four children, and her adopted child has special needs. Her husband just started a new job, and she didn’t want to be hospitalized for a pregnancy while he was still on probation and didn’t have FMLA leave yet as they could not afford joblessness - his field is doing really poor due to the local economy. But this was a clear miracle, so they are overjoyed by the chance to trust in God. That’s certainly not a contraceptive attitude.

I also used to hang out on a NFP forum. Questions abounded about “just cause” and discernment, and most of the mothers had over five children (unless they’d been married less than about seven years - most breastfed and had long periods of nursing infertility after birth as well).

Maybe your parish has this contraceptive culture, but if so I think it’s a product of your particular teaching couple or parish, not the CCL or normal NFP practice. If I recall, the CCL book on NFP has an entire chapter on discernment.

Also, keep in mind, many people practicing NFP aren’t going to share the fullness of their serious reasons with you. As far as you know, one partner may desperately want a child right then, but their partner may be closed to life - in this situation, your questions could be very painful. It’s none of your business, so why would a loving spouse expose their partner to shame by revealing this information to you? Maybe there is a drug or alcohol addiction, or a very personal medical issue. Maybe there is a threat of being fired at work. Maybe the mother’s faith is being worn down by repeat miscarraiges, and she realizes that another would be temptation to grave sin for her. Most likely, the couple is discerning on multiple topics - rarely is the matter so simple as, “My wife might die if she becomes pregnant again”. Maybe their finances aren’t strong AND one member of the couple is experiencing a private crisis of faith AND there are problems at work AND a close family member is sick and needs care AND and the mother of their foster-child is expecting another baby that they may be asked to care for as well, to keep the siblings together. The couple might express this as, “Well, we just have a lot going on right now, y’know?” Or maybe they mention the finances and leave the rest out of it. You don’t know, and can’t know.

 

[happymommy]

One final comment.

Think about how Jesus chose to come into this world. His mother and human foster father were on the streets and could not even get a room at the inn. He was born in a barn (essentially) surrounded by animals.

Mary did not say to Gabriel, “Do until me as you have said, unless I won’t have enough money for his college, unless I won’t have a nice home, until I can provide…”

You start to see that from the very conception of Christ he wants us to be open to the possibility of life at all points in our life.

Well, Mary and Joseph had a home, they were NOT out on the streets. Remember they were traveling when Jesus was born and it wasn’t they didn’t have the money for a room - there were NO rooms! She did what any mom in labor would do…have the baby! Some women give birth in their cars, doesn’t mean they couldn’t pay for the hospital, means they didn’t get there in time!

 

[moon1234]

I never comment when I have observed classes. Most of my observence was just that. I wanted to see what material and teaching was being presented.

When my wife and I were going through marraige instruction, we did them with our priest. We asked these questions of him. Human sexuality is not embarassing unless you make it so. A properly formed priest will be a kind educator and allay any features that sensitive topics can provoke.

I did not disturb anyone and the sessions I attended were not Q&A sessions. They were overview sessions with slides. Some people did ask questions which were answered by the presenter.

It may be in my area that there is more of a contraceptive culture and that bleeds through in the NFP instruction. I now recommend my close friends to speak with the parish priests who I know teach sound Catholic doctrine and can answer questions without the view that NFP is Catholic birth control.

 

[moon1234]

Well, Mary and Joseph had a home, they were NOT out on the streets. Remember they were traveling when Jesus was born and it wasn’t they didn’t have the money for a room - there were NO rooms! She did what any mom in labor would do…have the baby! Some women give birth in their cars, doesn’t mean they couldn’t pay for the hospital, means they didn’t get there in time!

The point was that Christ was born POOR. He was not born into a wealthy, well to do family. Mary accepted the child that God sent her without pre-condition.

 

[LJN21]

This is the letter that I was referring to. I generally receive my info from what many consider traditional sources. I read extensively the teachings of the Church fathers and canonized saints to determine the weight and meaning of future documents. I have always, even since I was a little boy, been taught that serious sin=mortal sin. I have always understood the word serious in the cathecism to mean grave, dire, etc. Most of the news sites I look at also retain the same outlook.

We’re not talking about sin here. Serious is not the same as grave; mortal sin requires “grave mater”. The words may close but they mean different things. You can’t just lump them all in the same boat and use that as your definition for when you can not use NFP.

I would argue that many of todays Catholics do NOT have a properly formed conscience. Their priorities are NOT focused on their call have Children and fulfilling their marraige vows, but rather are focused on materialistic and human focused priorities. They use documents like Humanae Vitae to support their exclusion of additional children to futher these views.p

You seem to be implying that Humanae Vitae is in some way defective? A Properly formed conscience is formed on Church teaching… Humanae Vitae is part of the Church teaching…

I just wanted to put forth what tradition in the Church (ie. the past held beliefs and teachings of now saints and church Fathers.) has taught us about the topics at hand. These beliefs can not and should not change based on the current political climate or social norms of the secular world.

No they do not change but the can evolve in to a more mature teaching.

Many traditional circles entirely or partially reject Humanae Vitae and Gaudem et Spes because of the severe departure and seeming rupture that it creates without the reading what they teach in the light of prior teaching and beliefs of the church. What once was wrong can not now be right. To hold such a view allows for God to contradict himself. If prior teaching was inspired by God how can current teaching refute the prior? We need a hermenutic of continuity, which these documents, unless read in the light of tradition, can cause great discontinuity.

ahh yes… traditionalist that reject the teachings of the Church, this is what we call cafeteria catholicism. Who are you to question teachings and decided what is and is not a departure. Go back to that whole conscience thing, you have the obligation to form your conscience based on the teaching of the church. Not the teaching of the Church you think are correct. This is just as bad as a Catholic that decides the Church is wrong about contraception.

St. Augustine called the use of means to avoid the birth of a child an ‘evil work:’ a reference to either abortion or contraception or both.”

NFP is not contraception.

Pope Pius XI in Casti Connubii soundly refutes the idea that conjugal love can take priority over the primary purpose of bringing children into the world.

“THE ACT OF MARRIAGE EXERCISED FOR PLEASURE ONLY IS ENTIRELY FREE OF ALL FAULT AND VENIAL DEFECT.” (Denz. 1159) -Condemned by Pope Innocent XI.

No one is talking about using sex for pleasure only that would be lust.

If you want to look to Natural Law then tell me how many animals have sex when the female is NOT fertile? How many animals have sex ONLY when the female is not fertile? If animals behaved the way humans do today, many species would be extinct.

By this logic its immoral to have sex when the woman is not fertile. So you better get out your NFP charts and start only having sex when she is…

 

[happymommy]

The point was that Christ was born POOR. He was not born into a wealthy, well to do family. Mary accepted the child that God sent her without pre-condition.

Could you please name a passage that gives the financial report on Joseph.

You are right, she did accept the child without pre-condition…she also didn’t have to worry about NFP afterwards because she remained a virgin her whole life, so it’s a little different then most couples.

 

[BiologyBrain]

Are examples of serious, hopefully very temporary serious reasons to ABSTAIN from intercourse? Abstain as in NO SEX period! Ordering sex around a schedule IS frustrating the marital act. If you truly have a serious reason to avoid children then DON’T have sex at all! This will help you decide how truly serious the reason is.

I strongly disagree w/ you and apparently so does the Church (THANK GOD). I happen to have a serious reason to avoid pregnancy (although I apparently can get pregnant from my husband looking at me since I’ve been pregnant 6x in 2 years). So you’re saying I’m not allowed to unite w/ my husband in intercourse until (unless?) my medical condition is resolved? That’s blantantly disrespectful of me (and others like me) and outright judgemental. Its true, I could completely abstain, but what would the purpose of our marriage be? God PLANNED that every time you have sex you DO NOT GET PREGNANT. That’s part of God’s creation of male & female. He MADE us to have infertile periods. He gave us the increased incentive for sex by making it pleasurable. HE DESIGNED us the way we are related to sex. Sex is unitive and procreative. Those are the 2 aspects of sex that the Church embraces. Even w/ NFP used properly there is ALWAYS a possibility of procreation as well as the certainty of unity. It doesn’t matter if you’ve always been like clockwork - sometimes your hormones do weird things! God is involved in the NFP process even if the couple doesn’t directly invoke His name. God is the one that designed it!

Also, to continually abstain from sex in a marriage is just as damaging if not more so than periodically abstaining. Scheduling sex (which isn’t really what happens to my knowledge, but hey, if that’s how you want to describe it) may be somewhat frustrating, but how much MORE frustrating would it be to a married couple to NEVER have sex. Geez… I can’t even imagine.

I think its incredibly harsh for you to sit & blatantly judge those who may say “We only want 2 children, so we use NFP” as being contraceptively minded. For all you know that’s the answer they agreed to use while they’re investigating why the wife has had 4 miscarriages in a row. Perhaps they are financially struggling and may lose their home. Perhaps they just don’t want a stranger to be privvy to their full reasons. Perhaps she had health problems during the last pregnancy that made her unable to have more children &/or carry to term. Perhaps NFP is allowing her to not put herself in danger again. Its not your business, concern, or place to lump anyone into a category unless you’ve walked in their shoes.

NFP is not and will never be intrinsically evil like contraception. Its just not possible. At its core NFP requires humility, respect, self-discipline, self-sacrifice, and love in order to succeed (either as a method of getting pregnant or avoiding pregnancy).

If I survive this pregnancy (possible miscarriage since 4 of 5 of my pregnancies have ended in miscarriage) my husband & I may very well use NFP more strictly to avoid pregnancy and be happy w/ our one child. I will most likely tell people that we’re just happy with one child. Its embarrassing, time consuming, too much information, etc to continually explain what miscarriages do to me physically and emotionally. Its NONE of any one else’s business anyway. God will judge everyone accordingly - He doesn’t need anyone else’s help!

 

[moon1234]

Who are you to question teachings and decided what is and is not a departure. Go back to that whole conscience thing, you have the obligation to form your conscience based on the teaching of the church. Not the teaching of the Church you think are correct. This is just as bad as a Catholic that decides the Church is wrong about contraception.

I think you imposed that view on me. I never said I supported it. I was stating that many have a problem with these documents (me included. I didn’t say I reject them) because they are not clearly in line with the previous teaching of the church or even the teaching of other 20th century popes.

Try as you might, most people using NFP are doing so to AVOID the birth of a child. They are NOT being open to life. Take a poll at the next NFP class and see how many people are there to learn how to AVOID having children. That will show you how well their conscience is formed.

There are legitimate, but very few, true reasons to delay having children. Honestly ASK some of the people what their reasons for delaying children are. If it is money, ask if they will be in the street if another child comes (They won’t. The government already provides free food and other subsidies if you don’t make enough money). Could they sell the TV, DVD player, Snow Mobile, etc. to have the money to pay for the child?

Most Catholics DO NOT want to make these sacrifices so they look to AVOID making them.

Do I sound harsh? Maybe, but I do not intend to personally attack anyone. People need to hear these things so they can properly examine their lives.

Pope Pius X, as well as many other saints, came from large families that were poor. How we would have missed had the parents of these saints decided they had TOO many children or needed to DELAY having more. God always provides as long as you TRUST him. It is when we start trying to decide what God wants that we run into trouble.

 

[moon1234]

By this logic its immoral to have sex when the woman is not fertile. So you better get out your NFP charts and start only having sex when she is…

We do NOT chart. We just have sex when we both feel like it. We do not worry about getting pregnant or not. We just love each other and trust that if we are to have another child it will come when God wants it.

We had a four year break after our first three children and we never used NFP. It just so happened that we had a break. Now we have two more children. We just leave it up to God to decide.

 

[BiologyBrain]

Could you please name a passage that gives the financial report on Joseph.

This is a bit off-topic, but Joseph was a carpenter. Historically speaking, carpenters were not anywhere near rich. They probably weren’t destitute either. The bible and history both agree that Jesus was not one of the upper class - rich.

To get this back sort-of on-topic. Mary accepted Jesus as her child at great danger to herself. That is true and is ultimately one of the reasons why we revere her so greatly. She made a HUGE sacrifice to accept this gift of God. She was unmarried (although betrothed) and now pregnant in a time where if a woman were suspected of adultery she was stoned. She was fairly young (again history tells us this). Joseph seriously considered divorcing/not marrying her and/or turning her over to the people based on this. He is greatly revered b/c he listened to God through his dreams and became Jesus’s foster father. If we could all be as such the world would truly be a better place. However, we all fail and we all are not as faithful as we should be. That does not mean that to decide to space children or discontinue having children is an immoral act (as long as its done according to Church laws). That simply means that we are all falling short of the sacrifices that Mary & Joseph made.

 

[moon1234]

I strongly disagree w/ you and apparently so does the Church (THANK GOD). I happen to have a serious reason to avoid pregnancy (although I apparently can get pregnant from my husband looking at me since I’ve been pregnant 6x in 2 years).

I think you missed what I said. I said the test should be if the condition is serious enoough for you to abstain from sex. If you have serious enough reason for you to abstain then you may have a case for NFP.

Compare your situation to a couple who just does NOT want to have children. They have no reason other than personally not wanting children. This situation does not pass the Abstain test.

Even saint Paul said men and women can put aside the marital act “for a short time”, but should not remain apart, but only for serious and mutual reasons. If you have a medical reason then you would most likely qualifiy.

On the other hand, can you guarantee that your next pregnancy will result in a miscarraige? My wife had three in a row. It was very hard for both of us. We did not give up though. We just prayed and trusted that our next baby would healthy.

 

[happymommy]

This is a bit off-topic, but Joseph was a carpenter. Historically speaking, carpenters were not anywhere near rich. They probably weren’t destitute either. The bible and history both agree that Jesus was not one of the upper class - rich.

To get this back sort-of on-topic. Mary accepted Jesus as her child at great danger to herself. That is true and is ultimately one of the reasons why we revere her so greatly. She made a HUGE sacrifice to accept this gift of God. She was unmarried (although betrothed) and now pregnant in a time where if a woman were suspected of adultery she was stoned. She was fairly young (again history tells us this). Joseph seriously considered divorcing/not marrying her and/or turning her over to the people based on this. He is greatly revered b/c he listened to God through his dreams and became Jesus’s foster father. If we could all be as such the world would truly be a better place. However, we all fail and we all are not as faithful as we should be. That does not mean that to decide to space children or discontinue having children is an immoral act (as long as its done according to Church laws). That simply means that we are all falling short of the sacrifices that Mary & Joseph made.

Yes, I know what Joseph did and that they were not rich. Moon keeps bringing up the money issue, that’s where I was going with that…

 

[BiologyBrain]

Try as you might, most people using NFP are doing so to AVOID the birth of a child. They are NOT being open to life. Take a poll at the next NFP class and see how many people are there to learn how to AVOID having children. That will show you how well their conscience is formed.

I learned NFP as a single (and most people I know did too) b/c it was healthy for me, accepted by the Church, and treated my gynecological problems w/o ABC. Others I know have learned NFP for the express purpose of IMPROVING their fertility. I suggest you look at the Pope Paul VI Institute web-page for more information. Women are rejecting ABC as a ‘treatment’ for Gyn issues and embracing NFP before, during & after marriage.

There are legitimate, but very few, true reasons to delay having children. Honestly ASK some of the people what their reasons for delaying children are.

You wouldn’t get 100% honest or accurate answers b/c ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Many women I know are actively using NFP to avoid pregnancy b/c of internal issues (gyn related mostly, but some are other medical issues). Finances may play a role in the decision, but its not the ONLY factor involved.

Pope Pius X, as well as many other saints, came from large families that were poor. How we would have missed had the parents of these saints decided they had TOO many children or needed to DELAY having more.

Who says they didn’t? Nursing provides natural infertile periods for a woman to recover after delivery. Many large families have conveniently spaced children based on this method historically speaking. Many aware women were able to tell when they were likely to get pregnant based on previous experiences (especially if they had large families b/c that’s a lot of practice). It may not have been labeled as NFP, but you can bet that even large families planned for the birth of their children.

God always provides as long as you TRUST him. It is when we start trying to decide what God wants that we run into trouble.

Who says that God isn’t providing some couples w/ a means to space/avoid children by giving them this infertile time and the knowledge to use it?

I think at this point its obvious that we’re not going to agree & I’m probably going to end up getting my feelings hurt. I use NFP & I WISH I were better at avoiding pregnancy b/c then I wouldn’t have had 4 miscarriages. I wouldn’t have had to suffer the physical pain, stress, illness, and almost death that occurs. I wouldn’t have had to suffer the emotional pain, stress, and disquiet that comes from wondering if there’s something I did wrong that caused the miscarriage. I wouldn’t be sitting here worried to death that my current pregnancy is simply going to kill me either physically or emotionally. I wouldn’t be feeling judged by others who think I’m stupid and/or careless for getting pregnant again so soon. I have good strong Catholics who blame me for my miscarriages (saying “There has to be something else you could have done.”). I have good strong Catholics who think my current pregnancy is wrong and harmful to me (“You should have told him no”).

 

[BiologyBrain]

On the other hand, can you guarantee that your next pregnancy will result in a miscarraige? My wife had three in a row. It was very hard for both of us. We did not give up though. We just prayed and trusted that our next baby would healthy.

I’m glad for you & your wife. Can you guarantee that my next pregnancy will NOT result in a miscarriage? I emotionally do not think I can handle another one. However, I do have an option w/ NFP to avoid (not that it worked for us). Another key factor in my story is that my husband isn’t Catholic (not even baptized Christian). He doesn’t hold the same sanctity of life and purpose of marriage of children, etc. For marital harmony as well as health, its in my best interest to avoid another pregnancy.

My point is that you CANNOT know someone else’s full reasoning for using NFP to avoid further pregnancies. If you were to speak to me & see me, you’d think I’d be a perfect case for have as many babies as you can. However, when someone asks me “When are you going to have more kids” or “How many kids are you going to have” or something like that I will most often reply “We’re happy w/ the one we have for right now.” People do not need my personal, medical, &/or marital history. Even if someone says we only want one child or we can’t afford another child, etc, they most likely have OTHER reasons for avoiding pregnancy. You CANNOT & SHOULD NOT judge them based on what little you know.