Natural Family Planning... "Just Reasons?"

[whatevergirl]

Why do people want to make others feel bad about following something the Church permits, like NFP. I don’t understand the tearing down of each other like this, especially during Lent.

 

[LJN21]

If you were to use nursing intentionally to avoid pregnancy then yes it would be sinful. Since you are are using nursing to feed your child and the side effect is you do not get pregnant then it is acceptable. This is because you are not deliberatly trying to avoid or reduce your chance of getting pregnant.

Just like the abortion example. If you are pregnant and have cancer of the uturus, then a hysterectomy would be licit because you were not doing it to kill the child, but to save the life of the mother. The death of the child is a side effect and not the primary goal of the surgery.

Charting is fine as long as you are not using the knowledge from the charting to avoid having children. On the contrary if you are trying to conceive a child the knowledge you gain would be used to for the primary purpose of your marraige. This is a very good example of how NFP can be used.

So wanting to avoid having children is the sin even when there if there was a grave cause?

Here is the problem. Either avoiding having children is intrinsically evil or its not. What I mean by this is its either immoral to avoid having kids PERIOD regardless of reasons or its using nfp can be wrong for another reason. Other wise your dealing with subjective morality.

The reason using NFP for selfish reasons is wrong is not because your avoiding having kids but because you are being selfish with the most precious gift God can give you. This is why having JUST reasons like another child at that time would make it hard to take care of the children you already have its okay to use NFP to postpone pregnancy.

Thats the funny part, I know a couple people that did the whole as many kids as fast as I can have them cause “thats what God wants”, one of them had 4 kids and had to have an hystericomy and another had 6 and had to have an hystericomy. Some people for what ever reason nursing does not suppress their cycles and pregancy THAT close to gether causes alot of harm to your body. Had they used NFP to space childern it is possible they would have had double the size in family.

 

[LJN21]

This is not true.

Okay, you tell me where the Church said that periodic Abstinence to space or limit births is wrong.

 

[whatevergirl]

Exactly. You frustrate his will on those days. You are not REQUIRED to have sex every day, but when you do decide the possibility of conception should not enter into the decision to have sex or not.

If your both very tired or worn out, no one says you MUST have sex. I just put forth that you should not avoid sex solely because you don’t want to be open to the possibility you may conceive.

I don’t disagree…but as EM and others have said…no one is permanently following NFP for avoidance. You’re insinuating that we are.

 

[moon1234]

So now you’re grouping those who use NFP w/ PP? That’s just ridiculous. PP also mentions abstinence on their website as being 100% effective at avoiding pregnancy & STDs, so does that mean we should abstain at all ever? Oh, by the way, thanks for making me & the thousands of other women who use NFP responsibly & for their health in the same category as those who abort their children.

I cannot believe you would rather group all NFP into the bad apple bin, than just acknowledge that **NFP uses God’s plan, while contraception does not. ** So are you or aren’t you completely against NFP? I thought you’d mentioned that I had good (grave/serious) reasons to use NFP & therefore I’m allowed. However, if my reasons were simply financial or my personal desire, I wouldn’t be allowed. Unlike contraception, which is always evil, NFP is **never **evil. No matter how you look at it, nursing is NFP. To some the side-effect is nourishing the child (especially beyond a certain age), but the primary intention is to avoid pregnancy for a while longer.

I think we’ve conceded that it can be abused, but with much difficulty & even then usually contraceptive means come into play as well. However, you’re actually indicating that all NFP to avoid pregnancy is wrong and contraceptive minded. I’m glad the Church does not agree w/ you. Even Pius X doesn’t necessarily agree w/ you. Thank God for that!

Planned parenthood proposes NFP a means for birth control. NFP should be reserved for “serious” ie grave reasons. PP pushes it as just another option for birth control.

I am more about the frame of mind of why people use NFP. Is it for the couples selfish reasons or is it truely for God’s glory? If it is for the couples own selfish reasons then they are in league with PP as just another form of BC.

 

[whatevergirl]

Planned parenthood proposes NFP a means for birth control. NFP should be reserved for “serious” ie grave reasons. PP pushes it as just another option for birth control.

I am more about the frame of mind of why people use NFP. Is it for the couples selfish reasons or is it truely for God’s glory? If it is for the couples own selfish reasons then they are in league with PP as just another form of BC.

No one is in disagreement with you here on that…I think we can all agree that if you’re avoiding for selfish reasons…that wouldn’t fall under ‘just’ reasons.

 

[LJN21]

I think the crux of moon’s point is this: For those of you who are using NFP, what happens if God wants to create a child on a day you chose to abstain?

Well in my experience, the desire to together overrides and you have a baby

Honestly, that question could be asked of him too with out charting. What if she has a “headache” the night God wants you to create a child. Maybe he needs to make sure they just do it every night form here on out just be be on the safe side. Of course that does lead to lower sperm counts which can cause fertility issues hrmm… Only safe bet for him is to chart and make sure they do it on all the days she is fertile.

 

[baylee]

Why do people want to make others feel bad about following something the Church permits, like NFP. I don’t understand the tearing down of each other like this, especially during Lent.

True whatevergirl. Those that are following the Church teaching here should not be made to feel like they are doing something wrong.

Having said that, I think the Church, through NFP, sends the message that it’s okay to avoid pregnancy as long as you don’t enjoy it…and I have to admit that I can see why someone like moon would take issue with that. It’s either okay to avoid pregnancy or it’s not.

 

[BiologyBrain]

Exactly. You frustrate his will on those days. You are not REQUIRED to have sex every day, but when you do decide the possibility of conception should not enter into the decision to have sex or not.

If your both very tired or worn out, no one says you MUST have sex. I just put forth that you should not avoid sex solely because you don’t want to be open to the possibility you may conceive.

What if my reason for avoiding another child is b/c I’m tired & worn out from the one(s) I currently have. I MUST have sex and conceive more children? Faith in God is one thing, but irresponsibility to self & marriage is another. God calls us to be compassionate for one another and to care for our children as best we know how. For some, the best way to care for their current children is to not have any more for a time. That is following God’s instructions as best we know.

We’re obviously never going to agree. I am feeling completely insulted, angry, disdained, and horrified Moon b/c you’ve now grouped me w/ those who kill their own children simply b/c I would use NFP to avoid pregnancy for now (for serious health reasons). That’s just WRONG. I don’t want to judge you, but I can’t help but think you’re being terribly uncharitable & unChristian for even implying that. Where’s your compassion? Where’s your Christian love for others? Casting those of us who use NFP into Hell (practically) with those who profit from abortion, birth control, and further degradation of society displays none of the characteristics I would associate with compassionate, charitable, Christian behavior.

 

[moon1234]

I don’t disagree…but as EM and others have said…no one is permanently following NFP for avoidance. You’re insinuating that we are.

I did not say you were, or others on this board. If you are here then you have obviously wanted to know more about your faith. The MAJORITY of Catholics are NOT here. They want to know how they can contracept and still have it be acceptable.

It is all about your frame of mind. Why are you using it? Is it for God’s glory or your own. Almost all of the literature supporting NFP, does not ask this question. It shows you how to use it, but does not delve into the why, when or moral aspects of it.

How can a person claim to have a well formed conscience if one does not have ALL of the information? I am sure that SOME NFP instructors go over all of these issues. In the four diocese around my home, NONE of them do. People need to be vocal about these issues so that Catholic instructors realize they need to help form that “Well formed conscience”.

So many people today have been so poorly cathecised that they “Think” they know what the Church teaches, but have never really looked into it. This leads to poor decisions.

 

[moon1234]

Well in my experience, the desire to together overrides and you have a baby

Honestly, that question could be asked of him too with out charting. What if she has a “headache” the night God wants you to create a child. Maybe he needs to make sure they just do it every night form here on out just be be on the safe side. Of course that does lead to lower sperm counts which can cause fertility issues hrmm… Only safe bet for him is to chart and make sure they do it on all the days she is fertile.

Hey if my Lady was willing that often there would be no complaint from me (I would prbably be a much calmer person . I never force her though. If we both are not interested then it is just one forcing the other.

 

[BiologyBrain]

I think the Church, through NFP, sends the message that it’s okay to avoid pregnancy as long as you don’t enjoy it…

That is a subversion of the foundation of NFP. Its not about enjoying sex vs not enjoying sex. Its about joining together w/ no barriers. Its the no barriers portion that differentiates contraceptive sex from procreative sex. To allow a woman who is naturally infertile (menopause, etc) to have sex means a woman who is naturally infertile due to the time of the month it is, should be allowed to have sex as well.

Geez… Its like talking to a wall.

 

[baylee]

I would add that many of these “just reasons” are the same reasons why many couples use ABC…and ABC is not 100% either. I’m not condoning ABC, but I think it is important to note that most people who use ABC do believe they are doing so for the right reasons as well.

 

[LJN21]

This is not true.

Okay, you tell me where the Church said that periodic Abstinence to space or limit births is wrong.

Before you ask my evidence to that it has always upheld it:

Dubium:
Should those spouses be reprehended who make use of marriage only on those days when (in the opinion of some doctors) conception is impossible?
Response: After mature examination, we have decided that such spouses should not be disturbed [or disquieted], provided they do nothing that impedes generation
~ Question by Bishop of Amiens, France, 1853 AD, response by Sacred Penitentiary, quoted in J. Montánchez, Teología Moral [Buenos Aires, 1946], p. 654.

Dubium:
Whether it is licit to make use of marriage only on those days when it is more difficult for conception to occur?
Response: Spouses using the aforesaid method are not to be disturbed; and a confessor may, with due caution, suggest this proposal to spouses, if his other attempts to lead them away from the detestable crime of onanism have proved fruitless.
~ June 16, 1880 AD, reply of the Sacred Penitentiary to confessors in order to discourage onanism (withdrawal). The editorial notes in Denzinger indicate that this decision was made public the following year (1881) in the respected French journal Nouvelle Revue Théologique, and in Rome itself in 1883 in the Vatican-approved series Analecta Iuris Pontificii.

Regarding the Exclusive Use of the Infertile Period

1. And now, Venerable Brethren, we shall explain in detail the evils opposed to each of the benefits of matrimony. First consideration is due to the offspring, which many have the boldness to call the disagreeable burden of matrimony and which they say is to be carefully avoided by married people not through virtuous continence (which Christian law permits in matrimony when both parties consent) but by frustrating the marriage act. (emphasis added)
   ~Castii Connubii, Pope Pius XI, 1930
2. Holy Church knows well that not infrequently one of the parties is sinned against rather than sinning, when for a grave cause he or she reluctantly allows the perversion of the right order. In such a case, there is no sin, provided that, mindful of the law of charity, he or she does not neglect to seek to dissuade and to deter the partner from sin. Nor are those considered as acting against nature who in the married state use their right in the proper manner although on account of natural reasons either of time or of certain defects, new life cannot be brought forth. For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved. (emphasis added)
   ~Castii Connubii, Pope Pius XI, 1930

Dubium:
Whether the practice is licit in itself by which spouses who, for just and grave causes, wish to avoid offspring in a morally upright way, abstain from the use of marriage – by mutual consent and with upright motives – except on those days which, according to certain recent [medical] theories, conception is impossible for natural reasons.
Response: Provided for by the Response of the Sacred Penitentiary of June 16, 1880.
~ July 20, 1932 AD, Sacred Penitentiary under Pope Pius XI, two years after the release of Casti Connubii, Roman documentary journal Texta et Documenta, series theologica (vol. 25 [1942], p. 95).

 

[PaulinVA]

So many people today have been so poorly catechetized that they “Think” they know what the Church teaches, but have never really looked into it. This leads to poor decisions.

AMEN, Moon, AMEN! You hit that nail right on the head!

I’ve been trying to think of how to charitably respond to your posts, but this says it all.

 

[baylee]

That is a subversion of the foundation of NFP. Its not about enjoying sex vs not enjoying sex. Its about joining together w/ no barriers. Its the no barriers portion that differentiates contraceptive sex from procreative sex. To allow a woman who is naturally infertile (menopause, etc) to have sex means a woman who is naturally infertile due to the time of the month it is, should be allowed to have sex as well.

Geez… Its like talking to a wall.

But like I said above, none of these artificial barriers are 100% effective (although the pill comes pretty darn close).

 

[BiologyBrain]

Almost all of the literature supporting NFP, does not ask this question. It shows you how to use it, but does not delve into the why, when or moral aspects of it.

All the Catholic based NFP instruction I’ve seen includes the phrases from the CCC that indicates you should have serious/grave reasons. They also emphasize the glorifying of God in understanding the gift of sexuality He has given us. I use Creighton & the booklet is filled w/ information on becoming closer to God, praying over the decision to avoid or attempt pregnancy, etc. There’s a whole chapter devoted to how to morally embrace one another during times of avoidance. The secular NFP sites (that allow contraception) do not mention these key factors.

But like I said above, none of these artificial barriers are 100% effective (although the pill comes pretty darn close).

Neither is NFP! However, NFP does not place any barriers between husband & wife. Neither spiritually, physically, or emotionally. ABC DOES!

 

[moon1234]

What if my reason for avoiding another child is b/c I’m tired & worn out from the one(s) I currently have. I MUST have sex and conceive more children? Faith in God is one thing, but irresponsibility to self & marriage is another. God calls us to be compassionate for one another and to care for our children as best we know how. For some, the best way to care for their current children is to not have any more for a time. That is following God’s instructions as best we know.

We’re obviously never going to agree. I am feeling completely insulted, angry, disdained, and horrified Moon b/c you’ve now grouped me w/ those who kill their own children simply b/c I would use NFP to avoid pregnancy for now (for serious health reasons). That’s just WRONG. I don’t want to judge you, but I can’t help but think you’re being terribly uncharitable & unChristian for even implying that. Where’s your compassion? Where’s your Christian love for others? Casting those of us who use NFP into Hell (practically) with those who profit from abortion, birth control, and further degradation of society displays none of the characteristics I would associate with compassionate, charitable, Christian behavior.

Put it this way. IF your reason is serious, then you should feel no hurt or disdain. You should be comfortable in your choice and know you are doing what Our Lord and church asks.

If you conscience tells you otherwise, then you need to do some soul searching. This is what I had to do to solidify my beliefs. I am comfortable in knowing that I am not walking a fine line. I don’t worry if I am doing something that our Lord may disapprove of.

I am not trying to Judge you. I am trying to make you judge yourself. If you Judge the way you live and determine through prayer that what you are doing is right, then you should feel no hurt from my posts. I apologize if you do.

 

[whatevergirl]

I would add that many of these “just reasons” are the same reasons why many couples use ABC…and ABC is not 100% either. I’m not condoning ABC, but I think it is important to note that most people who use ABC do believe they are doing so for the right reasons as well.

Can someone post the survey where the majority of all Catholics in our country were polled, and the stats were given? I feel like all this data is floating out there (I wasn’t asked to participate in the poll) and I’m totally unaware of it. Anyone have *actual surveyed data *showing the reasons people give for using NFP and for using ABC?

Before we say…“many people use NFP for this or that reason…” let’s have some real life statistics to back this up, other than that…this is all hearsay and speculation as to why Catholics are using NFP.

 

[BiologyBrain]

I am not trying to Judge you. I am trying to make you judge yourself. If you Judge the way you live and determine through prayer that what you are doing is right, then you should feel no hurt from my posts. I apologize if you do.

By your own admission people are on CAF to learn more about Catholicism. I am here to learn more. It doesn’t help me at all for you on one hand to say I have serious enough reasons for NFP, but then for you to condemn those who use NFP to avoid children on the other. As I’ve said (it feels like 100x), the reason most people give you for not having another child is not necessarily the real or only reason for the limitation. IMO you are trying to perpetuate self-doubt and self-loathing. I have enough self-doubt myself to continually try to research the Church’s position on such matters. Since you’re opinions are not in 100% accord w/ the Church I should feel confident. However, I am the type of person who is never entirely confident of their decision. So you are - especially since I’ve pointed it out to you several times now - fostering this lack of confidence and worsening it.

The Church says emphatically that periodic abstinence is acceptable for serious/grave reasons that are up to the couple to decide. God will judge all. Its not your place to place me in the same category as those who avail the ‘goods’ from PP to end their child’s lives. Its not charitable, nice, or Christian for you to do so - even if your intention was not to personally affront me. Your implication was enough and I hazard a guess to say that you knew it when you posted it.