Navy SEAL or undercover DEA and The Church

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Yea, right! This happens all the time :rolleyes:
In your OP, you stated your son was considering applying for undercover work and you indicated that there were things that he might be called upon to do that were morally “repugnant”.

I stand by what I said and that is that he needs to decline such assignments. If he does not believe he will be given any lattitude to do things in an ethical manner, then he needs to rethink applying for such a position at all.

I do not understand why you posted on here, asked for the Church’s teaching on the matter, and have now decided that answers based upon Church teaching deserve derision.
 
I was only taking exception to your statement that the OP’s song’s language was wrong in the arrest scenario, and that he was just justifying it in his head. That was the part of your original post that I strongly disagree with
I still think it is wrong, yes. I have friends who are police officers and they do not use such language in arresting people.
 
Thanks for your post based on experience. Wish I could have left the military, but when I got the invitation (draft notice) to part take in the Vietnam Conflict, my choices were limited. Move to Canada, go to jail or go to war. Over the 20 or so years and 4 or 5 Presidents, that war wavered from just to unjust more than once and is still debated by Theologians as well as Politicians on it’s justification. I only go to Canada to fish and I’ve never been in jail but when I visit my friend at our National Cemetery, I certainly don’t consider that it may have been unjust nor do the thousands of Catholic names on the slab of granite called the Vietnam Memorial Wall…just my opinion.
I had a choice. I chose to join, and I chose to leave the Corps, with some ambivalence as the job was not yet finished. But I did my part in the effort, and others camealongbehind me who wanted to take my place.

If the OP’s son is good with following orders, which presumably he has done his share of inthe police force, I think he should talk to some recruiters and see if it feels right. One thing I would advise is that you must assume that you will be deployed. My mom is patriotic and all that, but when it came to seeing me go off a few times, it got more difficult for her each time. A husband and father must take this into account. Some army guys in particular missed their kids’ childhoods and put the entire parental burden on their wives. That is something to consider what making a choice to join.

Serving in the military does not hurt a police career if he wants to return to that work later. The Marines generall make a guy a better marksman, a good skill for a cop. His police experience will help him to be a better soldier, etc.
 
I’m suprised by these answers. Maybe I’m missing something here. Are we just talking about using a bunch of swear words? If that’s the case and he was undercover than it seems like he is only acting and providing a valuable service to the rest of society. You can’t be undercover and say gosh darn it all.
No kidding. If I didn’t know better, I’d think this forum had suddenly been taken over by a bunch of Quakers!!

:eek:

Catholics do not have to be pacifists!
 
I had a choice. I chose to join, and I chose to leave the Corps, with some ambivalence as the job was not yet finished. But I did my part in the effort, and others camealongbehind me who wanted to take my place.

If the OP’s son is good with following orders, which presumably he has done his share of inthe police force, I think he should talk to some recruiters and see if it feels right. One thing I would advise is that you must assume that you will be deployed. My mom is patriotic and all that, but when it came to seeing me go off a few times, it got more difficult for her each time. A husband and father must take this into account. Some army guys in particular missed their kids’ childhoods and put the entire parental burden on their wives. That is something to consider what making a choice to join.

Serving in the military does not hurt a police career if he wants to return to that work later. The Marines generall make a guy a better marksman, a good skill for a cop. His police experience will help him to be a better soldier, etc.
Thanks for serving!

My son did it the other way, He became an Eagle Scout to get into the Coast Guard. A good part of their time is spent enforcing immigration, drug, fishing and boating laws on the high seas. He chose this branch because he always knew he wanted to be a Cop or a Fireman. We wish he would have chosen always saving lives instead of the possibility of having to take one but he enjoyed law enforcement in the service and hated the mandatory firefighting that most seaman are required to go through.
 
An article was published least week that claimed there are two veterans who commit suicide for every death in battle. I don’t know if it is true, but there is definitely a major problem.

I avoided the military and going to Vietnam legally. I was willing to go at first, but when my friends came home with deep psychological, spiritual problems I decided to see when my birthday would get picked in the draft lottery and got lucky. I have family now in the military. It can be a very honorable profession. War always takes a terrible toll on combatants. Also I have family who had police careers.

Friends I knew in high school and college came home deeply troubled and some did not come home. Many if not most became alcoholic. Many became drug dependent. Their marriages were under stress and many divorced. Some told stories of committing atrocities. One killed a 12 year old boy who threw a grenade and killed his buddy. Another was a sniper who killed dozens of men.

These young men I grew up with, went to school with, worked with all came home and were haunted. PTSD is real. They were normal happy teenagers and young twenty somethings when they went off to war.

Over the years my work brought me in contact with military from every branch of service, including many SF. Again I encountered them as they were returning from war in Iraq and Afghanistan. The military now does a much better job at helping people readjust than it did with those returning from Vietnam. Still, I see the toll the duress war takes on combatants, the divorces, nightmares, constant stress.

People come home with PTSD from a mission to build a church or school in an impoverished nation, or there needs to be special help available geting people to readjust to society, or deal with suicidal thoughts. I don’t think such people have to battle addictions too often.

Setting the issue aside on whether a policeman is acting morally if he chooses to use street profanity when making arrests, I wonder why it is that the majority of the servicemen I encountered over a lifetime, especially Marines, use such language in every sentence that comes out of their mouths. Why is it that they can’t go eat a pizza, but go have a sexually intercoursing pizza and a sexually intercoursing beer and the sexually intercoursing plane is not on time? They exhult in being crude. One man I know came home and at the dinner table with his family said pass the effing butter. I believe there may be some connection between the constant stream of profane language that comes out of their mouths, to the degradation that comes from the life experiences of the combat veteran and the policeman in a high crime area. It is really a similar experience.

Jesus says a man’s mouth speaks the treasure of his heart. What comes out of the mouth is in the heart. It is commonly reported that the Secretary of State, HC, talks like a Marine. She does not need to get the attention of street criminals. It is just who she is inside.

There is no evidence or data to substantiate the claim that a policeman has a better chance of making an arrest if he says put your hands up or put your sexually intercoursing hands up. It is a baseless claim, a claim a policeman might believe to be true, but there is no evidence that it is true. The language is part of the culture with a sick impure heart.
 
An article was published least week that claimed there are two veterans who commit suicide for every death in battle. I don’t know if it is true, but there is definitely a major problem.

I avoided the military and going to Vietnam legally. I was willing to go at first, but when my friends came home with deep psychological, spiritual problems I decided to see when my birthday would get picked in the draft lottery and got lucky. I have family now in the military. It can be a very honorable profession. War always takes a terrible toll on combatants. Also I have family who had police careers.

Friends I knew in high school and college came home deeply troubled and some did not come home. Many if not most became alcoholic. Many became drug dependent. Their marriages were under stress and many divorced. Some told stories of committing atrocities. One killed a 12 year old boy who threw a grenade and killed his buddy. Another was a sniper who killed dozens of men.

These young men I grew up with, went to school with, worked with all came home and were haunted. PTSD is real. They were normal happy teenagers and young twenty somethings when they went off to war.

Over the years my work brought me in contact with military from every branch of service, including many SF. Again I encountered them as they were returning from war in Iraq and Afghanistan. The military now does a much better job at helping people readjust than it did with those returning from Vietnam. Still, I see the toll the duress war takes on combatants, the divorces, nightmares, constant stress.

People come home with PTSD from a mission to build a church or school in an impoverished nation, or there needs to be special help available geting people to readjust to society, or deal with suicidal thoughts. I don’t think such people have to battle addictions too often.

Setting the issue aside on whether a policeman is acting morally if he chooses to use street profanity when making arrests, I wonder why it is that the majority of the servicemen I encountered over a lifetime, especially Marines, use such language in every sentence that comes out of their mouths. Why is it that they can’t go eat a pizza, but go have a sexually intercoursing pizza and a sexually intercoursing beer and the sexually intercoursing plane is not on time? They exhult in being crude. One man I know came home and at the dinner table with his family said pass the effing butter. I believe there may be some connection between the constant stream of profane language that comes out of their mouths, to the degradation that comes from the life experiences of the combat veteran and the policeman in a high crime area. It is really a similar experience.

Jesus says a man’s mouth speaks the treasure of his heart. What comes out of the mouth is in the heart. It is commonly reported that the Secretary of State, HC, talks like a Marine. She does not need to get the attention of street criminals. It is just who she is inside.

There is no evidence or data to substantiate the claim that a policeman has a better chance of making an arrest if he says put your hands up or put your sexually intercoursing hands up. It is a baseless claim, a claim a policeman might believe to be true, but there is no evidence that it is true. The language is part of the culture with a sick impure heart.
Yes, PTSD is very real. So is the defective helmet design which seems to cause a lot of brain stem injuries. A good friend of mine is a Navy neurologist in San Diego. He was recently transferred from the Medical Center in San Diego to the base hospital on Camp Pendleton, where they are also building a new larger hospital. He is very busy these days with returning wounded.
 
Thanks for serving!

My son did it the other way, He became an Eagle Scout to get into the Coast Guard. A good part of their time is spent enforcing immigration, drug, fishing and boating laws on the high seas. He chose this branch because he always knew he wanted to be a Cop or a Fireman. We wish he would have chosen always saving lives instead of the possibility of having to take one but he enjoyed law enforcement in the service and hated the mandatory firefighting that most seaman are required to go through.
Thank you for your kind words.

I think the parents of kids who are serving deserve our thanks. They go through a lot, and they didn’t even make the choice. It can be stressful for them. So, thank you for the support of your son.
 
I still think it is wrong, yes. I have friends who are police officers and they do not use such language in arresting people.
Assuming that “*****” represents in the statement “drop the gun or I’ll blow your ******* head off”, does not meanusing the Lord’s name in vain, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Using profanity is wrong in the vast majority of cases, I agree. But it is not absolute IMO, unlike using the Lord’s name in vain or cursing someone. When someone is pointing a gun at you, with even the slightest reason to believe he will respond to that language better and by better it will save his life or yours; it seems to be a very reasonable thing to do.
 
Assuming that “*****” represents in the statement “drop the gun or I’ll blow your ******* head off”, does not meanusing the Lord’s name in vain, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Using profanity is wrong in the vast majority of cases, I agree. But it is not absolute IMO, unlike using the Lord’s name in vain or cursing someone. When someone is pointing a gun at you, with even the slightest reason to believe he will respond to that language better and by better it will save his life or yours; it seems to be a very reasonable thing to do.
I think I’ll have a clear conscience thinking along these lines.

As far as the morality, or in most cases immorality of war, grandfather opened some old feelings and thoughts. My Dad fought in WWII, which was supposedly just because we were returning what was given us at Pearl Harbor. But when we used the bomb on Hiroshima, Pope Pius XII declared it an immoral act. It may well have been, but it brought my Dad home safe and alive to have me. Then at 19 years old, I received an invitation (draft notice) to the Vietnam war. Back then, I’m not even sure if the guidelines for just and unjust wars had been established, but I did know it was war or jail. Next I knew, I was in Vietnam trying to stay alive while watching many who failed. I didn’t have a say when our Lieutenant called an air strike that would kill as many civilians as NVA, but that strike probably saved my life. I prayed. I prayed that the pilot would close his eyes to the civilians and that his aim was true and the release of the napalm canisters was without hesitation. His feelings were his problem and I’m sure he saw more of the destruction then me. We came back to an ungrateful nation and were called “baby killers”. I wanted to know more about that horrible episode and to my dismay it seems there are those who believe the Church and Pope Pius XII were instrumental in Getting Diem, a fanatical Roman Catholic, into power, and persuading a Catholic president to keep him there thus expanding the Catholic Faith in that region. That, and the threat of Communism
The Vietnamese were fighting against foreign imperial power to be free to run their country their own way. They won, and they are now running their own country as a sovereign and passably prospering independent state.
The Americans were running an imperial campaign, propping up a corrupt govt (S Vietnam) ostensibly to promote democracy (what an example!) in order to counter alleged Russian influence
When the Orange Rain came down, we thought at least it’s only killing vegetation. Little did I know that that would open an new can of worms…is it immoral to give one’s Oncologist a sperm sample though masturbation. (that needn’t be answered here).
Just as I have not found a reliable list of the just wars, I value all of the posts and opinions, but at the end of the day, I think that’s what they are, opinions
Now…I need to get off my soapbox.
.
 
Assuming that “*****” represents in the statement “drop the gun or I’ll blow your ******* head off”, does not meanusing the Lord’s name in vain, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Using profanity is wrong in the vast majority of cases, I agree. But it is not absolute IMO, unlike using the Lord’s name in vain or cursing someone. When someone is pointing a gun at you, with even the slightest reason to believe he will respond to that language better and by better it will save his life or yours; it seems to be a very reasonable thing to do.
Assuming that “*****” represents in the statement “drop the gun or I’ll blow your ******* head off”, does not meanusing the Lord’s name in vain, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Using profanity is wrong in the vast majority of cases, I agree. But it is not absolute IMO, unlike using the Lord’s name in vain or cursing someone. When someone is pointing a gun at you, with even the slightest reason to believe he will respond to that language better and by better it will save his life or yours; it seems to be a very reasonable thing to do.
All of the situations we all face in life have a spiritual nature, because we are spiritual beings and have a spiritual nature.

Our present day society is very confused.

When a question arises on the moral rectitude, the spiritual nature, of some behavior or other how do we come to a decision on the matter?

Is personal opinion the way we decide if premarital sex for example is sinful or not? Do we all get together and voice our opinions on whether abortion is a civil right or murder?

Clearly any Christian, especially any Catholic Christian should be able to see this is not how moral determinations are to be made. What individuals personally believe, or human organizations say about the moral rectitude of any behavior is irrelevant. What a a judge of the civil government or the Supreme Court says about abortion for example does not change the reality of what abortion is spiritually, or God’s moral law.

If we shape our lives and behave according to what we each think is right or wrong we have moral chaos. This is not a comment on whether or not a cop screaming profanity while making an arrest is moral or not.

The treatment of the issue here in this thread is an example of the flawed way our society now approaches making moral determinations and thereby shapes social behavior. In general how are we doing in that area? Are we cruder and more violent than a generation or century ago? Are we more chaste, less vulgar, kinder? Are our marriages healthier?

The reason we can no longer figure out or undewrstand that men marry women is the way we approach understanding right from wrong.
 
What your son said, regarding language, does not hold up to the bright light of day. He does not have to be like the criminals he arrests. He can maintain moral ways of acting and do his job, and he can treat people with dignity.
Since when is cursing sinful?

The Commandment is to not take the name of the Lord in Vain. Standard sexual or scatalogical profanity does not violate this.

I know plenty of priests who curse like sailors when the occasion call for it.

God Bless
 
Kennedy was Catholic in name only. He was an immoral politician who sought power for the sake of power. His brother Ted carried on the family legacy claiming to be Catholic while being the great defender of abortion and admitting to sex with a thousand women in his career as a Senator. The idea that the pope and Kennedy were in league in prosecuting the war to spread Catholicism is ludicrous. It is akin to the idea the Bush orchestrated 9-11. All kinds of wild speculation is believed by those who want to believe it.
 
All of the situations we all face in life have a spiritual nature, because we are spiritual beings and have a spiritual nature.

Our present day society is very confused.

When a question arises on the moral rectitude, the spiritual nature, of some behavior or other how do we come to a decision on the matter?

Is personal opinion the way we decide if premarital sex for example is sinful or not? Do we all get together and voice our opinions on whether abortion is a civil right or murder?

Clearly any Christian, especially any Catholic Christian should be able to see this is not how moral determinations are to be made. What individuals personally believe, or human organizations say about the moral rectitude of any behavior is irrelevant. What a a judge of the civil government or the Supreme Court says about abortion for example does not change the reality of what abortion is spiritually, or God’s moral law.

If we shape our lives and behave according to what we each think is right or wrong we have moral chaos. This is not a comment on whether or not a cop screaming profanity while making an arrest is moral or not.

The treatment of the issue here in this thread is an example of the flawed way our society now approaches making moral determinations and thereby shapes social behavior. In general how are we doing in that area? Are we cruder and more violent than a generation or century ago? Are we more chaste, less vulgar, kinder? Are our marriages healthier?

The reason we can no longer figure out or undewrstand that men marry women is the way we approach understanding right from wrong.
I am not responding simply based on what I think is right and wrong. I researched this.I specifically said in my last post that the scenario presented did not excuse either cursing someone or to use the lord’s name in vaid. These actions are objectively sinful, in every situation.

Other profanity, is not as absolute.
 
Since when is cursing sinful?

The Commandment is to not take the name of the Lord in Vain. Standard sexual or scatalogical profanity does not violate this.

I know plenty of priests who curse like sailors when the occasion call for it.

God Bless
Cursing, as opposed to profanity, is objectively sinful in every situation. Terminology is important here.

Cursing is actually putting a curse on someone or calling for God’s wrath on someone or even the devil’s wrath on someone.

For example: “You can go to h$ll” would be cursing. Where as saying “What the h$ll is that?” is using profanity.
The example used in the OP “Drop your gun or I will blow you %$%^$ head-off”. is not a curse. It is a threat, laced with profanity. Hence it is NOT objectively sinful.
 
To the OP, my son is also a police officer and I feel that God probably would understand. As other people have stated I think God has asked us not to use
his name in vain. I guess from my opinion even though I don’t like to hear some cuss words (I think people can come up with better things to say) They are words made up by each generation. Your son is trying to protect and serve his fellow man I think God understands. I have come to believe that our Lord whats us to do the best we can and LOVE HIM the best we can and strive to do better each day. I don’t think he is standing over us waiting for us to screw up, knowing we are sinners until the end,
why would he have went though the crucifixation if we were hopeless. I know
one thing for sure violent criminals don’t have morals. I will pray for your family and for your son’s safety.
 
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