Nazarene Judaism's Perspective on Jesus, Torah, and Messiah

[meltzerboy]

I was reading about Nazarene Judaism the other day and found that such Jews believe that Jesus was the Messiah ben Joseph but not the Messiah ben David. This is in keeping with some in the Jewish community who believe there will be two Messiahs, the first (Messiah ben Joseph) a political or military leader, who dies while atoning for sins, and the second (Messiah ben David), who ushers in the Messianic era by fulfilling the prophecies. However, neither Messiah is believed to be of divine origin, but rather more of a Tzadik or holy person. (There is some debate as well, according to Torah Judaism, whether the two Messiahs must be two different people and also whether they must succeed each other in this particular order.) I suppose Christianity developed the concept of the Second Coming of Jesus from this Jewish idea.

One of the problems with the belief of Nazarene Jews is that Jesus was not really a political or military leader. Apart from this, however, Nazarene Jews concur with Torah Judaism that the Messiah is not meant to be G-d and they do not believe in the Trinitarian G-d either. What I find particularly fascinating about their belief is that Jesus was a veritable Torah scholar, true to His word in saying He came not to abolish the Torah Law, neither detract from it nor add to it. They point out that Jesus’ criticism of the false Pharisees (which did not include them all), and even more so the heretic Sadducees, was not based on their adherence to the Law in a strict, literal interpretation, but rather their non-adherence to the Law. IOW, they did not go far enough in maintaining the commandments of both the Written Torah and the Oral Torah (which was later transcribed into the Talmud), mainly because they were ignorant of what the Law was really telling them to do. Jesus’ teaching was in fact based on the true Pharasaic school of Rabbi Hillel the Elder, who not only understood the essence of the Torah (Love G-d, Love thy neighbor, even Love thine enemy) but had a better understanding than most regarding the details of the Law. For example, when Jesus said to the false Pharisees that it was all right to carry belongings on the Sabbath, He was not breaking the Law, because there were already provisions in the Oral Torah for doing so provided the community was fenced off. Likewise, Jesus understood that the Torah placed human life above the prohibition to work on the Sabbath despite the false Pharisees’ accusation that he was defiling the Sabbath.

I would be very interested in your reactions to and further information on this Jewish movement, Nazarene Judaism, realizing it does not fit into Christianity’s belief regarding the divinity of Jesus, nor His death and resurrection, nor the Trinity. And also, what are Jews’ reactions to accepting Jesus as the non-divine Messiah, but not the final Redeemer of Israel, based on the two-Messiah theory? All are welcome to participate in the discussion.

 

[po18guy]

I suppose Christianity developed the concept of the Second Coming of Jesus from this Jewish idea.

Since Christinaity has its roots in Judaism, there is much of (Catholicism and Orthodoxy) which may appear quite familiar to Jews. However, it is Jesus’ own words addressing His return at the end of time that established the belief in the Parousia.

He came not to abolish the Torah Law, neither detract from it nor add to it.

Jesus declared Himself as the long awaited Son of Man, and that He was “Lord, also of the Sabbath” Luke 6:5 If He were truly the Son of God, then righteousness demands that He reveal this. Likewise, He can neither deceive nor be deceived. However, He clearly stated that He came to fulfill the law - the consummation of the Mosaic Covenant. As recorded by Matthew: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." Matthew 5:17-18

We solemnly observe this very day, Jesus saying from the cross “It is consummated.” **John 19:30 **

He also said “For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:20 Notice that neither the Pharisees nor the Sadducees submitted to the baptism of repentance given by John the Baptist. Luke 7:30 Jesus insisted on His own baptism, saying that “all righteousness must needs fulfilled” in so doing. Matthew 3:15

Regarding the Pharisees and Sadducees, political parties shielding themselves behind their blood ancestry to Abraham, Jesus appears to have identified more with the Essenes, in which part of town the last supper took place. Remember the “man carrying a water jar”? Mark 14:13, Luke 22:10 Many of the Essenes had forgone marriage, and lived celibate lives - there were no wives to carry the water - thus, the “man carrying a jar of water.”

As to the peculiar beliefs of the Nazarene Jews, just where is it written in the Law or the Prophets that there will be two Messiahs? Moses wrote that another like him will be raised up. Deuteronomy 18:15

 

[meltzerboy]

Since Christinaity has its roots in Judaism, there is much of (Catholicism and Orthodoxy) which may appear quite familiar to Jews. However, it is Jesus’ own words addressing His return at the end of time that established the belief in the Parousia.
Jesus declared Himself as the long awaited Son of Man, and that He was “Lord, also of the Sabbath” Luke 6:5 If He were truly the Son of God, then righteousness demands that He reveal this. Likewise, He can neither deceive nor be deceived. However, He clearly stated that He came to fulfill the law - the consummation of the Mosaic Covenant. As recorded by Matthew: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." Matthew 5:17-18

We solemnly observe this very day, Jesus saying from the cross “It is consummated.” **John 19:30 **

He also said “For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:20 Notice that neither the Pharisees nor the Sadducees submitted to the baptism of repentance given by John the Baptist. Luke 7:30 Jesus insisted on His own baptism, saying that “all righteousness must needs fulfilled” in so doing. Matthew 3:15

Regarding the Pharisees and Sadducees, political parties shielding themselves behind their blood ancestry to Abraham, Jesus appears to have identified more with the Essenes, in which part of town the last supper took place. Remember the “man carrying a water jar”? Mark 14:13, Luke 22:10 Many of the Essenes had forgone marriage, and lived celibate lives - there were no wives to carry the water - thus, the “man carrying a jar of water.”

As to the peculiar beliefs of the Nazarene Jews, just where is it written in the Law or the Prophets that there will be two Messiahs? Moses wrote that another like him will be raised up. Deuteronomy 18:15

Thanks for your reply, and I have a few points on some of your comments. First, the concept of righteousness, according to Judaism, does not mean one has to be perfect or near-perfect or holy. It involves instead striving to do better and repentance for one’s failings or sins. I think it is a concept that may have been defined differently by Christianity. Second, one of the major points in Nazarene Judaism is that the Law is NOT fully accomplished in Jesus in the sense that He incorporated the Old Law into His own being or behavior so that we are now ready for a New Law. Their interpretation of what Jesus meant was that He better understand both the distilled essence and the rigorous specifics of the Law than most of the Pharisees and Sadducees had at the time, and in this sense fulfilled the Law. And third, to answer your question about the two-Messiah theory, this is discussed in the Oral Torah, which was later classified in the Talmud. But there are, as always in Judaism, differences of opinion about the exact sequence of events pertaining to the appearance of the Messiah (or Messiahs).

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Some jews took their judaism way to far in rejecting what the Apostles in council with the elders of the church had decided on concerning how gentiles ought enter the church. Some Jews still determined gentiles had to be jews in order to receive the grace of God and be in the church, Paul and the apostles are against this. Thus any sort of notion of Judaising the faith does not fit in with what has been received, they want to cling and be saved by the old law, and they can do that and be condemned by it.

 

[AveChriste11]

Some jews took their judaism way to far in rejecting what the Apostles in council with the elders of the church had decided on concerning how gentiles ought enter the church. Some Jews still determined gentiles had to be jews in order to receive the grace of God and be in the church, Paul and the apostles are against this. Thus any sort of notion of Judaising the faith does not fit in with what has been received, they want to cling and be saved by the old law, and they can do that and be condemned by it.

I have heard from others that Paul was battling with Ebionites, or a group who was a theological ancestor to them. Ebionites were Torah-observant, and rejected Paul’s message because they thought he was turning people away from what was given through Moses which was believed to be eternal. Hence the ruling later at the Council of Jerusalem that Gentiles did not have to be circumcised in Acts 15:23-29…

The apostles and elders, your brothers,

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Farewell.